[Kalen Braley]

Great analogy John...

Two lane highways with a 15,000 person population center is the same as 6 lane highways with a 1,000,000 person population center. 

[Melvyn Morrow]

A possible solution to the ills of Golf is to ban the R&A & USGA from interfering. Re look at all their decisions and correct all their errors. Then have a single body that is responsible and interested in the survival of golf.

No player allowed on a course without an initial induction of do’s & don’t 

Burn all the carts and bring exercise back into normal golf (carts only available for medical/age assisted problems) 

Remove all markers, yardage books, electronic distance aids, requiring the golfer to rely on his/her own ability to play the game (that will get rid of hopefully most of the moaners).

Revise ball/club technology and limit course to 7,000 yards max. Allow the architects more freedom to produce more challenging courses thus encouraging the golfer to plan his shots carefully to avoid the traps.

Reduce the Tour Games as it just drains money out of the sport.

Once we have resolved the above I can think of a few more items that need to be considered, but that for another post.

IMHO this will resolve the speed of a round (due to people dropping out or find they are unable to judge distance) and allow the true traditional golfer time to enjoy a round at their leisure. 

Jon.  Think you got more comments than you expected, so what’s my beef –very simple - other golfers who do not share my opinions.

[C. Squier]

Winick,

Have you ever played golf wearing a bluetooth or heard a ring and answered your rangefinder?

The guy wearing the bluetooth is the same person who jumps out of the car with his spikes and glove on.  Seeing that is my favorite moment of the day.

CPS

[John Moore II]

Yesterday, I played 18 holes in 2 hours 10 minutes, used a rangefinder, rode a cart, used my cell phone, and lined up every putt using my cheater line. Played through 3 groups on the course, in order to properly slow them down and cause them to play slower than they would have. I also went to a golf shop in town after that and tried out a belly putter again, I am considering getting another one of those. So how about that??

[Melvyn Morrow]

JKM

So you ride a cart like a mad man played a round in just over two hours but not one word to say that you enjoyed yourself – expect you did not have time between cart, phone and your other toys. But it does say something about you and your game

[John Moore II]

Melvyn-I actually quite enjoyed myself and the course was much more fun than I had remembered it being when I last played it. I shot 76 from the back tees, and don't feel like I played as well as I could have. 

--And Melvyn, you certainly used your monthly quota of smileys on your previous post, that may be the most I've seen on a single post.

[JWinick]

Ken,

You seem like a hyper-efficient, evolved modern man.   You had me at "yesterday" lost me at "belly putter."  

Yesterday, I played 18 holes in 2 hours 10 minutes, used a rangefinder, rode a cart, used my cell phone, and lined up every putt using my cheater line. Played through 3 groups on the course, in order to properly slow them down and cause them to play slower than they would have. I also went to a golf shop in town after that and tried out a belly putter again, I am considering getting another one of those. So how about that??

[C. Squier]

JKM

So you ride a cart like a mad man played a round in just over two hours but not one word to say that you enjoyed yourself – expect you did not have time between cart, phone and your other toys. But it does say something about you and your game

Aren't you really barking up the wrong tree?  Last time I check, TOC will still swipe the most obnoxious, "American" golfer's credit card without blinking an eye.  Surely you have probably mentioned something to the keepers of the game, but I can't imagine you pursue your vision of "golf" with them as much as you do here.  We're just a bunch of pawns in the game.....go to the top!  Surely if you petition them hard enough to ban these evils, the vast majority of the present day users will stop using them.  I know I would. 

[JWinick]

Melvyn:

Let me address your proposals:

1) Banning R&A & USGA
- I'm not sure why you want to blow up the governing bodies.  Are they perfect?  No.   But, one unified body is not the problem.  R&A & USGA are usually on the same page.

2) No player allowed on the course without dos and don'ts
- I like this one.   Perhaps, we can do this positively and reserve early tee times to people who have a posted handicap and have taken an etiquette class.   You don't want to stop people from playing, but stop the bad people from ruining it for you and me.

3) Burn all the carts and bring exercise back to golf
- Terrible idea.   Have you ever played golf in Arizona or the Mountain West in the states?  You can't have golf in some places without carts.  Unfortunately, the world is getting fatter and lazier.   I don't like clubs that are anti-cart.  Do I prefer to walk?  Usually.  But, if I'm playing 36, I want to ride.

4) Remove all markers, yardage books, electronic distance aids, requiring the golfer to rely on his/her own ability to play the game (that will get rid of hopefully most of the moaners).
- Well, we'll never agree on this one.   I'm not sure why you think an innate knowledge of distance is a requirement for golf.   What about people with poor depth perception?  People with poor eyesight?   Name me one sport where an athlete is supposed to know a distance without any aid.  I can't think of one.  

5) Revise ball/club technology and limit course to 7,000 yards max. Allow the architects more freedom to produce more challenging courses thus encouraging the golfer to plan his shots carefully to avoid the traps.

- You're on the right track.   I think the USGA is addressing the grooves, which will help reduce the reliance on rough to toughen up courses.   The club technology has been slowed down with the limitation on COR.   The ball is obviously next.  


6) Reduce the Tour Games as it just drains money out of the sport.

- how?   Has Tiger Woods been a positive for golf?  He's made the game a fortune.  

Well, it's a start.  2 out of 6 ain't bad.

A possible solution to the ills of Golf is to ban the R&A & USGA from interfering. Re look at all their decisions and correct all their errors. Then have a single body that is responsible and interested in the survival of golf.

No player allowed on a course without an initial induction of do’s & don’t 

Burn all the carts and bring exercise back into normal golf (carts only available for medical/age assisted problems) 

Remove all markers, yardage books, electronic distance aids, requiring the golfer to rely on his/her own ability to play the game (that will get rid of hopefully most of the moaners).

Revise ball/club technology and limit course to 7,000 yards max. Allow the architects more freedom to produce more challenging courses thus encouraging the golfer to plan his shots carefully to avoid the traps.

Reduce the Tour Games as it just drains money out of the sport.

Once we have resolved the above I can think of a few more items that need to be considered, but that for another post.

IMHO this will resolve the speed of a round (due to people dropping out or find they are unable to judge distance) and allow the true traditional golfer time to enjoy a round at their leisure. 

Jon.  Think you got more comments than you expected, so what’s my beef –very simple - other golfers who do not share my opinions.

[John Moore II]

Ken,

You seem like a hyper-efficient, evolved modern man.   You had me at "yesterday" lost me at "belly putter." 

Yesterday, I played 18 holes in 2 hours 10 minutes, used a rangefinder, rode a cart, used my cell phone, and lined up every putt using my cheater line. Played through 3 groups on the course, in order to properly slow them down and cause them to play slower than they would have. I also went to a golf shop in town after that and tried out a belly putter again, I am considering getting another one of those. So how about that??

Sorry I lost you there. In all reality, my reason for making that post was not to say I really did those things, however, beyond the rangefinder (I do not own one YET) it was all true. I posted that in order to say everything that I find foolish about the entire ordeal that is going down on here at the moment. Kavanaugh is saying people should not play fast and play through groups, Shivas is against lining up putts, a fair number of people are against rangefinders, nearly everyone is against cell phone usage, and some think belly/long putters are cheating. So I just made a stupid post in order to show how dumb it all is.

[Jeff Fortson]

Jeff

As I mentioned earlier, no mention of yardage in the early rules as no one needed or wanting to know yardage distance, it’s a modern sickness.

It always amuses me how with one breath people say they don’t know much about the past then go on to say that ,“they are sure” of this or that.

Jeff, I like your comment about sheepherder, in the 18th century most playing golf came from the nobility, the poor old sheepherder could not afford a club let alone a ball.  But good try.

I believe you have totally misread all my comments or just not understood them  -  I am not hardcore, I just want the game to continue in the manner
of the late 19th & up to the mid 20th Century. I want a player to be responsible for his game, for his shots, for winning. I am not against technology, but we must control it so it does not change the game we are all meant to love.

Changes are lead by the manufacturers and our Governing Bodies seem to rubber stamp just about every change – the old story of money lead sport, instead a sport for all at sensible prices. What about 4 -6 hours to play a round of golf, do you not consider that obscene because I do, someone is taking the piss and not caring about US, the ordinary golfer.

I recently tried to get the courtesy of the course for Ernie Payne at TOC, regards Old Tom Morris Centenary Challenge of playing a selected list of courses connected with Old Tom (in this his centenary year) but was advised that it was not possible but allowed to use the New Course instead. That only one in recent times has been given that honour - it was Clinton. The man that lied whilst in office, cheated on his wife in front of the world is given a free round at the Old Course – tell me standards have not dropped through the floor, but then money talks.

I don’t want distance info on the course or in books etc because I believe the game would be better all round.

I am not stopping you using distance info, but I hope that I am making you think about it.

Melvyn,

I hope you saw the humor in the sheepherder comment.  I meant no disrespect to you by calling you "hardcore".  I was actually applauding you for taking such a stern stance on the topic. 

Hopefully, I made you think about something too...

Nowhere can I find that the Rules of Golf ever prohibited a player from obtaining information on distances from two different points on a course.  How is using a yardage book a divergence from tradition when no such tradition was ever clearly defined on this topic?  At no point did I ever hear a golfer that played in the mid-20th Century say that they didn't collect yardages because it was against the Rules or Spirit of the Game.  Maybe it wasn't done to the extent or preciseness of today's player but if you think Bobby Jones, Walter Hagen, and Old Tom Morris didn't have some information, whether stored in their memory, obtained from a caddy, or jotted down on paper re: distances between two spots, then I would venture a guess that you are wrong.  I find it impossible that this type of information was not gathered and used in some manner in the age you espouse to go back to re: distance knowledge.  I'm not claiming that they used yardage books but there certainly had to be some basic info gathered from trees or bunkers to greens, etc.

I, too, think that technology has taken away some of the game that I loved as a kid.  I think we should be playing with persimmon heads and balata balls.  I think the new ball and club has taken shaping shots out of the game as a whole.  That's a shame.  I find the artistry in curving the ball to be the most fun element of the sport.

As for the Clinton comment...  I don't see any correlation between this topic and that.  Sure the guy cheated on his wife, multiple times.  What does that have to do with measuring distances between two points on a golf course?  For TOC to give a courtesy to the President (or former President) of the United States doesn't seem to be a shocking revelation. 

You made me think about it and you haven't convinced me to stop using measuring practices while playing a round of golf.  Once again, I can find nothing out of tradition or against the Spirit of the Game in doing so.  No precedent was ever set or commented on by any traditionalist or Golden Era golfer, architect, Rules body, etc.  If you can show me some researchable evidence to contradict this then I would be happy to revisit the topic. 

Until then, I think the burden of proof is on you or at least the position you support to prove me wrong.  Where do you draw this belief that by using knowledge of yardages is against the "purity of the soul", or against the Spirit and tradition of the Game?  I don't see how you can support this position and accuse others of being out of step with the true "soul" of the game without any real proof to support your position.


Jeff F.

[Jeff Fortson]

A possible solution to the ills of Golf is to ban the R&A & USGA from interfering. Re look at all their decisions and correct all their errors. Then have a single body that is responsible and interested in the survival of golf.

Really?  Who makes up this new body of golf?  How do we make this happen?  Who will appoint these new leaders of this new body?  Are golfers around the world going to unite and create something new?[/i] 

No player allowed on a course without an initial induction of do’s & don’t 

I agree.  I brought this up on another thread.  I think people should have to test out on Section 1 of the Rules of Golf before ever playing a full round of golf.[/i]

Burn all the carts and bring exercise back into normal golf (carts only available for medical/age assisted problems) 

Good luck.  You don't have to ride if you don't want to and no one is going to force you to play a riding mandatory course.[/i]

Remove all markers, yardage books, electronic distance aids, requiring the golfer to rely on his/her own ability to play the game (that will get rid of hopefully most of the moaners).

Completely baseless argument.  Since when did you decide that you get to define what abilities are necessary or proper to play the game?  Electric distance aids can be argued.  Gathering information and doing some homework is an uncontrollable thing.  How can you stop someone from walking off yardage between a tree and a green front?  Do you have ESP?  Can you read their mind?  If not, I could still walk this off and jot it down on a piece of paper or in a journal later and use it during a round of golf without you ever knowing.  Is that cheating?  How is it not a skill to know and be able to control the distance of your shots?  Since when was distance control not one of the "abilities to play the game"?  I think you are WAY off on this topic.[/b]
 
Revise ball/club technology and limit course to 7,000 yards max. Allow the architects more freedom to produce more challenging courses thus encouraging the golfer to plan his shots carefully to avoid the traps.

I agree with reverting back to 1980's technology re: equipment. 

Where do you come to the 7000 yard conclusion?  Is that a researched thing or just what sounds good to you? 

Architects have as much freedom as they choose to get involved in.  Some guys will do work for builders anyway they want them to.  Others demand full control on the design.  How is giving all architects this freedom going to unsure I have the ability "to plan my shots carefully to avoid the traps".[/b]

Reduce the Tour Games as it just drains money out of the sport.

I have never heard anyone call them "Tour Games" before but how would their reduction be better for golf?  How is the draining of money going to change the game for the better?  I guess there will be less people playing which would mean faster rounds for the few left playing the sport.  That sounds a little selfish to me.[/b]

Once we have resolved the above I can think of a few more items that need to be considered, but that for another post.

Please spout more out.  This is great!

IMHO this will resolve the speed of a round (due to people dropping out or find they are unable to judge distance) and allow the true traditional golfer time to enjoy a round at their leisure. 

This may be the most ridiculous comment I have ever read on this website.  Who are you to decide what makes up a "true traditional golfer"?  I have challenged you to prove your point re: tradition of measuring distances and you have shown me nothing.  For you to make the comment above, I assume there has to be humor behind it as it might be one of the most self righteous things I have read on this site.[/b]

Jon.  Think you got more comments than you expected, so what’s my beef –very simple - other golfers who do not share my opinions.

I hope this is more humor.[/b]

Jeff F.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Jeff

In answer to your first reply.
 
I indeed saw the humour in your comment re the sheepherder and no offence taken from any of your comments.

If from the start of our modern game markers and yardage indicators had been used, I believe there would be many records. I have never noticed in the books I have read regards the early competitions any reference to distance or yardage. Yet there are still some old markers for the boundaries of the courses but none for yardage – interesting?

As per my previous comments, distance information was never an issue, it was unimportant hence never required to be addressed in the rules. Jeff you are looking at golf with your modern eyes – yardage is a modern pre-occupation that actually distracts golfers. It was not even considered relevant in the past.

It has become an ‘In Thing’, perhaps a way to screw more money out of the Golfer. The most surprising thing and the problem is that most golfers have gone along with it, believing they need this information to play better golf. It’s a crutch, its crap, because a golfer has no need of them, but IMHO they has been well sold, that the good modern golfer has allowed them to take over his game. Yardage has become the watch word and blinded the player of his own inbuilt ability. It’s a habit or drug or whatever you want to call it and an alien influence (distraction) on our game of golf. Unless you have some actual proof, which I do not believe exists you do a disservice to past greats as knowledge of distance is a modern requirement.

The Clinton comment was a reflection on how golf is going or to be precise has gone, in my opinion he showed contempt for his people, his office and his wife and he (not his past Office) should not have been given any form of courtesy on our prime golf course. But that’s my private opinion and may not be shared by others, yet it sends out interesting messages that a cheater is allowed free access on our First Course.

As distance/yardage was not a factor for most of the history of the game why would you expect to find any reference to it let alone acknowledgement in the Rules. Those using these aids in whichever form are obtaining outside information not generated from playing the game. That is my opinion, it is not part of the Soul let alone the Spirit of the Game. As for proof I believe that is actually down to you to disprove as you are accepting outside information, help, aid in the hope of improving your performance.

I never believed I would change any ones mind, but as I said before I hope I have made you think about them.

[Andy Troeger]

Melvyn,
One thing that I don't believe has been brought up (I haven't read every post of this thread admittedly) is the TYPE of course where yardage isn't important. On a links course where the ground game is an option and leaving a ball a bit short isn't a problem, then sure its possible to play without yardage markers and be fairly successful, see my story from a few pages back. Windy sites certainly play a factor in this.

However, play a purely aerial course with hazards directly in front an behind greens and it becomes a different task entirely. Picking the correct club might account for 10 shots a round. Most of the courses you play (just a guess) probably fall into the arena of being playable short or long; some modern American courses  simply don't provide that kind of room to play and would be miserable without yardage markers of some sort.

You could argue that those aren't good courses, but as long as they exist the yardage markers are pretty crucial to having a fun round. I like #17 at TPC Sawgrass, but without a yardage marker it would be almost impossible the first time around (not that its not already for most people).

[Jeff Fortson]

Jeff

In answer to your first reply.
 
I indeed saw the humour in your comment re the sheepherder and no offence taken from any of your comments.

Good, as I have no intention of insulting you.

If from the start of our modern game markers and yardage indicators had been used, I believe there would be many records. I have never noticed in the books I have read regards the early competitions any reference to distance or yardage. Yet there are still some old markers for the boundaries of the courses but none for yardage – interesting?

Distance of holes has been used for a long time.  I'm sure one could find a scorecard with distances of each hole on them or at least recorded information on them from the early 20th Century, maybe earlier.  This does set a precedent that yardage was gathered and was important.

As per my previous comments, distance information was never an issue, it was unimportant hence never required to be addressed in the rules. Jeff you are looking at golf with your modern eyes – yardage is a modern pre-occupation that actually distracts golfers. It was not even considered relevant in the past.

If distance was unimportant then why would golf be played over specific lengths?  Why are holes deemed to be par 3's, 4's and 5's?  Because they are different lengths!  I am looking at golf with eyes that see the relevance of distance in the time you think golf should revert back to.  Yardage has become more important because it was found to be a useful tool.  The act of gathering the information and making note of it has never been addressed in terms of being against the "spirit or soul" of the game.  Gathering that information was and is common with any golfer that wants to hone their accuracy.  Once again, I would argue that Old Tom Morris himself probably knew certain distances between two different points on at least TOC.  They may have been steps or something like that but I guarantee he gathered that kind of information.

It has become an ‘In Thing’, perhaps a way to screw more money out of the Golfer. The most surprising thing and the problem is that most golfers have gone along with it, believing they need this information to play better golf. It’s a crutch, its crap, because a golfer has no need of them, but IMHO they has been well sold, that the good modern golfer has allowed them to take over his game. Yardage has become the watch word and blinded the player of his own inbuilt ability. It’s a habit or drug or whatever you want to call it and an alien influence (distraction) on our game of golf. Unless you have some actual proof, which I do not believe exists you do a disservice to past greats as knowledge of distance is a modern requirement.

I don't know what circle you roam in or how old you are but gathering distances have never been the "in thing" with the golfers I play with.  Swing technique, new equipment, etc. has been more at the top of list for those I have been around.  No one has forced anyone to spend one dime on yardage books, range finders, etc.  It is a personal choice made by golfers that are trying to gather information of a golf course which has never been considered illegal or against the spirit of the game. 

You say "the modern golfer has allowed them to take over his game", who are you talking about?  Does Bushnell or George Lucas (the guy who makes yardage books on tour) control the game?  I think that's completely ridiculous. 

I don't know what you mean by "watch word" but yardage has not blinded me of my "own inbuilt ability".  It has enhanced my ability to strategically take apart a golf course. 

As for it being a "drug or addiction" I have yet to open a yardage book every day and go over it so much that it hurts my life or game. 

You call it an "alien influence".  Gathering information on distance has been around since math was created.  Applying it to golf is natural instinct. 

You say, "Unless you have some actual proof, which I do not believe exists you do a disservice to past greats as knowledge of distance is a modern requirement."  I will research this when I have the time to get you actual references to this being so.  I do no one a "disservice" by believing they had the intelligence to know approximate measurements between two points on a course.   It is a "modern requirement" for those who want to gather that kind of data.  Name one "great" player since Nicklaus that has not used a yardage book or measurement tools at some point.  You can't.  You do them, and I'm sure countless others before them who gathered information but maybe not as in depth as the modern player, a "disservice" by basically claiming they have no "inbuilt ability" to play the game without them and more or less call them cheaters.  Who's doing whom a disservice?

The Clinton comment was a reflection on how golf is going or to be precise has gone, in my opinion he showed contempt for his people, his office and his wife and he (not his past Office) should not have been given any form of courtesy on our prime golf course. But that’s my private opinion and may not be shared by others, yet it sends out interesting messages that a cheater is allowed free access on our First Course.

Clinton has many human faults.  John McCain left his first wife because she got fat after a catastrophic  accident.  He was having an affair with his current wife before he was divorced and was still living with his ex.  Does that mean he shouldn't be qualified to be considered an American hero or patriot?  Does this mean he is unfit for being President?  I think the idea that our leaders should be free of human faults is absolutely ridiculous.  Making a decision of who gets to play TOC obviously isn't your decision and those who made it must have felt comfortable in doing so.  There are people with human faults everywhere getting free access to plenty of places in plenty of different scenarios.  It's rumored that Prince Harry isn't even the legitimate son of Prince Charles.  Diana supposedly had an affair with someone in the British military.  Prince Charles was having an affair with Camilla before he was divorced from Diana.  Should Prince Charles have no free access to a club if they choose to give him such access?  How do we know the guy you tried to get free access for never did anything immoral?  Your argument is not based in reality my friend.

As distance/yardage was not a factor for most of the history of the game why would you expect to find any reference to it let alone acknowledgement in the Rules. Those using these aids in whichever form are obtaining outside information not generated from playing the game. That is my opinion, it is not part of the Soul let alone the Spirit of the Game. As for proof I believe that is actually down to you to disprove as you are accepting outside information, help, aid in the hope of improving your performance.

Yardage has been around for a long time in regards to the length of a hole which set the groundwork for making it relevant to gather yardages of shorter distances on said holes.  They were used to determine the par of holes as well, which further proves my argument.  So, your argument that "obtaining outside information not generated from playing the game" falls flat on its face.  Are you telling me that caddies had never gathered that kind of info to relay to their players during the era you espouse to go back to?  Come on. 

I am not "accepting outside information", I am gathering it.  There is a difference.  No one is giving me advice.  I am gathering common knowledge that can be obtained by anyone and then I add my own info and develop my own strategy with it.

I never believed I would change any ones mind, but as I said before I hope I have made you think about them.

You made me think about it for sure and hopefully you can think about what I have said and see the gaping holes in your argument that obtaining and gathering information on distances on a golf course has never been against the "spirit or soul" of the game.

Jeff F.

[Jeff Fortson]

Melvyn,

Read this article from 1921.  It has numerous references of distances that players hit shots from. 

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9E07E0D6123EEE3ABC4D53DFB667838A639EDE&oref=slogin


You may have to copy and paste it.

I will find more examples.


Jeff F.

[Jeff Fortson]

And another example.  This one dated 1895...

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9505E1DB113DE433A2575AC2A96F9C94649ED7CF


Jeff F.

[Dan Herrmann]

Following Melvyn's arguement to an admittedly goofy conclusion - Why not ban caddies? 

[Jeff Fortson]

Another example... this describes how holes were given their par in relation to distance dated 1903...

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9B02E3DA163AE733A25752C1A9679C946297D6CF


Jeff F.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Jeff

I was going to respond to your second post from yesterday when my computer crashed. Having just read your replies from this mornings post,
I believe we will never agree so I just don’t see the point.

Believe what you will, clearly you are more aware of the history of golf and the way the game was played on these shores, that I am. Your opinions are way too strong and so I may discount my family history. Next time I am on TOC I shall recheck for old distance markers (as you seem certain that Old Tom used them), they maybe close to the old stone boundary markers – who knows, but it might be wise for me to keep my thoughts to myself in future, clearly I don’t know what I am talking about.

Melvyn

[Jeff Fortson]

This is dated 1896 and has a visual layout of Knollwood Country Club and shows the routing with distances attached to each hole...

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9802E3DB123EE333A25751C2A9659C94679ED7CF


Jeff F.

[John Moore II]

This is dated 1896 and has a visual layout of Knollwood Country Club and shows the routing with distances attached to each hole...

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9802E3DB123EE333A25751C2A9659C94679ED7CF


Jeff F.

Yeah, but does it say anything about the evils of anchoring the putterhead?

Shivas--If you and I ever manage to play a round of golf together, I am going to make sure I am using a belly/long putter, even if I have to buy it in the pro shop that morning

[Jeff Fortson]

This is dated 1916 and references Ray, Vardon, Ouimet, and Hagen and how the Brits felt Americans were too consumed with hitting their clubs far.  Then talk about knowing specific distances their clubs went.  This suggests that they knew the length between two different spots on a course.  Otherwise, how would they measure this?...

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9A0DEFDF1E3FE233A2575BC0A9619C946796D6CF


Jeff F.

[Jeff Fortson]

Jeff

I was going to respond to your second post from yesterday when my computer crashed. Having just read your replies from this mornings post,
I believe we will never agree so I just don’t see the point.

Melvyn, 

What's there to agree upon?  I have given concrete examples of how distance and measurments have been used during the time frame you think golf should revert to.

Believe what you will, clearly you are more aware of the history of golf and the way the game was played on these shores, that I am. Your opinions are way too strong and so I may discount my family history. Next time I am on TOC I shall recheck for old distance markers (as you seem certain that Old Tom used them), they maybe close to the old stone boundary markers – who knows, but it might be wise for me to keep my thoughts to myself in future, clearly I don’t know what I am talking about.

I have never claimed to be "more aware of the history of golf and the way the game was played on YOUR shores" than you.  I am simply proving that the gathering of distance was never against the "spirit and soul" of the game.  You claim it to be against it and have shown me nothing to prove this.

I don't know you or who you are related to so I have no intent to "discount YOUR family history".

You said, "Next time I am on TOC I shall recheck for old distance markers (as you seem certain that Old Tom used them)".  I have never claimed that distance markers (i.e. 150 markers or stones set at certain locations, etc.) were used in Old Tom's era.  Re-read my posts.  I have only stated that gathering information on distances between two points on a golf course has been common for at least 120+ years.  How would one know how far they hit a shot if they weren't measuring it?  Why wouldn't someone of Old Tom's caliber of player use that information in regards to avoiding hazards?  How did they know the distances of holes?  How did they determine a par for a hole?


Melvyn

Look, I am not trying to bash you.  You asked for evidence, I have given you evidence.  I can look for more if you like.  I have asked you to provide the evidence to the contrary and you have offered nothing yet.  You can feel anything you want. I am not trying to tell you that you must use yardage when making a decision to hit a shot.  I am defending myself and others that use this information as you have claimed that any that use this information are playing against the "spirit and soul" of the game and I don't take that kind of blast lightly.  I have given my life to this game.  I have worked in the golf business for over 10 years and have played and loved the sport since I was 3 years old.  I consider my self fairly traditional in my approach to the game.  To be called a "cheater" or something near that is insulting. 

I wish you no ill will, I simply felt it necessary to show you the truth.


Jeff F.

[Brent Hutto]

...who knows, but it might be wise for me to keep my thoughts to myself in future, clearly I don’t know what I am talking about.

Hey, we're as interested in your thoughts as we are anyone else's.

But I'd suggest it might be wise to keep your insults to yourself in the future, especially given the way you refuse to retract or soften them when faced with facts that out and out contradict your assertions.

In the end, we're left with you simply restating over and over your distaste and resentment toward anyone who plays the game in a manner that differs from your own oddball quirks. That serves no purpose other than making you look bad and encouraging useless pissing contests on the forum (of which we admittedly have a long history and I'm as guilty as anyone).

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