[JWinick]

It's remarkable how people claim to want to fight slow play and then stand in the way of a device that speeds up play.  After a wild tee shot on 17 at the 2005 Masters, it took Tiger's caddie two minutes to mark off the distance on Tiger's next shot.   A range finder solves the problem immediately.   

John, you seem to complain about how people use range finders.  I'm sure you complain about how people drive.  As do I.  But, I'm sure you're more annoyed by slow play.   

[Bruce Leland]

I am a confessed yardage seeker.  I did not start out as one but as the information became available through better course marking (150 stakes) and then Ping Markers (front, middle, back yardages) then yardage books (carries over hazards, etc.) Rangefinders, then GPS I have sought the information in greater detail.

When playing a tournament round I'm glad for the information given, i.e. hole locations and exact yardage on the par 3's.  I will admit to a sense of loss at my ability to determine distance visually over the years.  I know I am not what I once was.

In my casual rounds and in my practice I will attempt to regain what I have lost.  Call me a neo-luddite.

[John Kavanaugh]

JWinick,

I am more often annoyed by people who want to play too fast than too slow.  I always find a way to play just right until some lonely boy rides up my ass because they can't get a game on a weekend....or the couple who wants to sleep in and tee off on a crowed course as a twosome at 10 am.  

Now I would get pissed if I let a group play though and they took the time to pull out a range finder and shoot the distance on their home course.  My observations while playing private courses is that slow players understand the etiquette of letting people play through much better than fast players understand how to play through.  I hope I never fault a golfer for enjoying his time out on the course and the company of his friends.

[Dan King]

JWinick writes:
It's remarkable how people claim to want to fight slow play and then stand in the way of a device that speeds up play.

Do you believe if you keep saying that enough you will convince someone?

Some of us just aren't that gullible.

All these time-saving devices can speed up a fast golfer. They also constantly slow down slow golfers. The problem is we are stuck playing at the pace of the slowest golfer ahead on the course.

After a wild tee shot on 17 at the 2005 Masters, it took Tiger's caddie two minutes to mark off the distance on Tiger's next shot.   A range finder solves the problem immediately.   

Since the advent of DVR, how slow Tiger plays golf really doesn't matter to me. The problem is with all of these want-to-be pros who think they should be entitled to play just like the pros. Luckily soon we should have bifurcation, and we can be like other sports that have a strong break between the top level of the sport and the rest of us.

Had I been King of the PGA Tour®, Tiger and his caddy would have been tasered and DQed long before they hit the shot, solving the problem immediately.

Cheers,
Dan King

Something very drastic ought to have been done years and years ago. Golf courses are becoming far to long. Twenty years ago we played three rounds of golf a day and considered we had taken an interminably long time if we took more than two hours to play a round. Today it's not infrequently takes over three hours.
 --Alister MacKenzie

[Adam Clayman]

Tony, You must've misunderstood me.
You seem to be stuck on the caddy question.
I am not against caddies. 
I'm not interested in winning at golf. That's impossible. Pro Tournament play is not golf, and, as Dan has clearly articulated, it is a major cause for the deplorable speed at which many play.

I've golfed with Dan on a MOnday at SFGC. It was caddy day. There was one hanging around the first tee looking for a job. Dan hired him on the spot. I leaned on him only for yardages from the center of the fairways, but not until I had told him my guess. It was a great way to learn Tillie's tricks in deceiving the eye.

This thread is about devices, equating them to caddies is insulting to caddies.
JK is the only one allowed to be insulting, here. 

[Kirk Gill]

Two observations.

One, I don't know who said it (I'm sure someone here can remind me) but I remember hearing something to the effect of "golf is sport, and tournament golf is science," and that's pretty much the way I feel about it. A game where I know all of the exact distances between me and hazards, between me and the green, between me and a tree is something I'm just not all that interested in. As an analogy, I have a regular ol' watch, with hands on it. If someone asks me what time it is, I'll likely say "round a quarter 'til," rather than robotically reply "2:47." These distance aids are the same thing. I understand why those who are involved in the science of playing golf would want all that stuff, but I don't.

Comment two is that one of the things I enjoy about golf is the individual nature of play - you keep your own score, you call penalties on yourself, and you know whether or not you're cheating, and you have to live with it. Never having had more on the line than a few bucks, or lunch, or some beers - it's easy for me to not want to use those measuring devices, so I don't. And I don't much care if others use them. To each their own. As my former Anthropology prof (and member of the disc golf hall of fame, for what that's worth) would say, "whatever's most fun." Use the cheater line. Use some silly-ass putter that goes up to your chest. Use a range finder. Use all these things, and enjoy them, if that's what makes it more fun for you. For my sake, I've always sort of drawn the line at having little 150-yard markers (and that only if they're not little spruce trees or something. I happen to have grown up with little wooden poles painted with black and white stripes, as offensive as even THOSE are to some eyes), and I understand how completely arbitrary it is for me to use those, but not others. Bottom line, I suppose if I scored better, and got more caught up in my ability to do that, then I might care more.

[Michael Powers]

There is absolutely no difference between using an electronic device to measure yardage and stepping off yardage from sprinkler heads.  It is the same information being provided in a different form. 

If you overzealous purists are so bent in limiting the information a player has regarding yardage, why not go all the way?  This would entail eliminating sprinkler head markers, 150 yard markers, yardage books, and the yardage on the scorecard. 

[JWinick]

That's precisely my argument:

If you provide information to people regarding distances to the flag (caddies, 150-markers), than why not give them good information that speeds up play?   And, why does it irritate someone that someone else uses a range finder?  Someone who needs this information and lacks the rangefinder will simply walk it off, consult a caddy or a playing partner, which takes more time.   

I don't have a problem with the romantics.  They seem like good people that want to play golf a certain way.  But, a minority of them are intolerant and sneer at us who have a different approach.   If you wish to read this thread, you can see that the pro-rangefinder crowd has had their eyesight & mental fortitude/capacity questioned.   

There is absolutely no difference between using an electronic device to measure yardage and stepping off yardage from sprinkler heads.  It is the same information being provided in a different form. 

If you overzealous purists are so bent in limiting the information a player has regarding yardage, why not go all the way?  This would entail eliminating sprinkler head markers, 150 yard markers, yardage books, and the yardage on the scorecard. 

[Dean Stokes]

There is absolutely no difference between using an electronic device to measure yardage and stepping off yardage from sprinkler heads.  It is the same information being provided in a different form. 

If you overzealous purists are so bent in limiting the information a player has regarding yardage, why not go all the way?  This would entail eliminating sprinkler head markers, 150 yard markers, yardage books, and the yardage on the scorecard. 

Friar's Head. Oh but they have a caddie program.............

[Bill_McBride]

There is absolutely no difference between using an electronic device to measure yardage and stepping off yardage from sprinkler heads.  It is the same information being provided in a different form. 

If you overzealous purists are so bent in limiting the information a player has regarding yardage, why not go all the way?  This would entail eliminating sprinkler head markers, 150 yard markers, yardage books, and the yardage on the scorecard. 

Maybe some genius can invent a laser device that also figures in the wind speed and direction, the change in elevation (up or down), and maybe the slope and speed of the green.  Then you techies would just have to worry about hitting the club the computer spit out to you for each shot.

I wish Dr. Childs was around to join in this argument, he used to get REALLY anti-Luddite. 

[Dean Stokes]

There is absolutely no difference between using an electronic device to measure yardage and stepping off yardage from sprinkler heads.  It is the same information being provided in a different form. 

If you overzealous purists are so bent in limiting the information a player has regarding yardage, why not go all the way?  This would entail eliminating sprinkler head markers, 150 yard markers, yardage books, and the yardage on the scorecard. 

Maybe some genius can invent a laser device that also figures in the wind speed and direction, the change in elevation (up or down), and maybe the slope and speed of the green.  Then you techies would just have to worry about hitting the club the computer spit out to you for each shot.

I wish Dr. Childs was around to join in this argument, he used to get REALLY anti-Luddite. 

Bill, they do read the elevation and adjust the yardage for it. Where have you been? Really.

[Michael Powers]

Dean,
You mean to tell me that Friars Head has no yardage on their scorecards?  I gotta see this.  Someone please scan it and post here.

Dean and Bill,
Wind speed?  wind direction?  elevation change?  I thought we were talking about yardage, but now I get it.  You guys think that electronic distance devises are the evil twin brother to the automated telescope putter of one Al Czervik.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Sorry been down to Rye and Hastings today so missed some of the comments.

Reading the comments from all those who want, no sorry, needs to use these artificial aids to help them play golf reminds me of listening to a junkie trying to justify why he needs his fix. For daring to mention your toys, your argument explodes into banning everything, you mock those who don’t need artificial aids, yet in truth it actually proves your weakness in the game. I do not care if you are a Professional or just a normal player, these aids are just not needed. They have become a fix before every shot. Clearly you feel the need for these artificial aids to play your game, but in reality you do not.

There is no way any of you will accept that they are crutches, a distraction. They have become part of the game over the last 30 -40 years.

We will never agree but you continue to call me names, to accuse me of all sorts, to be totally honest I just don’t give a ‘FOUR’. My game is totally honest I do not use artificial aids, no matter how good or bad my round may be it is based upon my eye/brain coordination, my own ability, all my own work and not based upon some assistance from an artificial toy.

Guys use your toys, return scores like Tiger, but in my eyes you got there by using an artificial aid – like a sprinter winning the Olympic 100M but only with the aid of steroids – IMHO there is no honour in that type of victory – but if that is the way you want to play your game of golf – that’s your choice as currently these aids do not appear to be illegal. 

[Dean Stokes]

Dean,
You mean to tell me that Friars Head has no yardage on their scorecards?  I gotta see this.  Someone please scan it and post here.

Dean and Bill,
Wind speed?  wind direction?  elevation change?  I thought we were talking about yardage, but now I get it.  You guys think that electronic distance devises are the evil twin brother to the automated telescope putter of one Al Czervik.

Michael, I have the card in my hand and I have a new fax/copier/scanner that I have never used! If I can get the two together you will get to see this. There is no yardages at all and no handicap indexes (you have to make them up yourself if you want a game)!

[A.G._Crockett]

There is absolutely no difference between using an electronic device to measure yardage and stepping off yardage from sprinkler heads.  It is the same information being provided in a different form. 

If you overzealous purists are so bent in limiting the information a player has regarding yardage, why not go all the way?  This would entail eliminating sprinkler head markers, 150 yard markers, yardage books, and the yardage on the scorecard. 

Maybe some genius can invent a laser device that also figures in the wind speed and direction, the change in elevation (up or down), and maybe the slope and speed of the green.  Then you techies would just have to worry about hitting the club the computer spit out to you for each shot.

I wish Dr. Childs was around to join in this argument, he used to get REALLY anti-Luddite. 

Bill, they do read the elevation and adjust the yardage for it. Where have you been? Really.

But the ones that read slope are NOT legal.  That's technology that was developed for hunters, and is being used by golfers.

[Dean Stokes]

Sorry been down to Rye and Hastings today so missed some of the comments.

Reading the comments from all those who want, no sorry, needs to use these artificial aids to help them play golf reminds me of listening to a junkie trying to justify why he needs his fix. For daring to mention your toys, your argument explodes into banning everything, you mock those who don’t need artificial aids, yet in truth it actually proves your weakness in the game. I do not care if you are a Professional or just a normal player, these aids are just not needed. They have become a fix before every shot. Clearly you feel the need for these artificial aids to play your game, but in reality you do not.

There is no way any of you will accept that they are crutches, a distraction. They have become part of the game over the last 30 -40 years.

We will never agree but you continue to call me names, to accuse me of all sorts, to be totally honest I just don’t give a ‘FOUR’. My game is totally honest I do not use artificial aids, no matter how good or bad my round may be it is based upon my eye/brain coordination, my own ability, all my own work and not based upon some assistance from an artificial toy.

Guys use your toys, return scores like Tiger, but in my eyes you got there by using an artificial aid – like a sprinter winning the Olympic 100M but only with the aid of steroids – IMHO there is no honour in that type of victory – but if that is the way you want to play your game of golf – that’s your choice as currently these aids do not appear to be illegal. 

Melvyn, what kind of driver do you use? Persimmon, hickory shaft? You wouldn't be using a modern one with a massive head and graphite shaft that goes 60 yards further than those I just mentioned?

If so why would you complain about people using range finders?

Artificial aid? The range finder doesn't hit the damn ball does it. The biggest artificial aids of all are the clubs and the ball. I suppose you're still using balatas are you?

[Andy Troeger]

Is there a reason why the folks that like these devices can't continue to use them, the folks that don't can refrain from purchasing them, and we can't all just enjoy the game in our fashion?

The only thing I consider important is that there's some indication of yardage out there that's easy enough to see that I don't have to go stomping around after it. Having the 100, 150, 200 markers is more than enough info for me. If someone in the group has a gadget I'm not opposed to using it, but I sure as heck wouldn't buy one.

I'm not old enough to have played prior to yardage markers being available. Quite frankly, seems like a nice concept to me and I don't have much desire to part with them.

[Tim Pitner]

When I'm traveling, I don't mind consulting maps, but GPS seems unnecessary.  When I play golf, I'll consult sprinkler heads or yardage books, but I have no desire to use a rangefinder.  It's just one more gimmick I don't need.  Might as well buy a ball retriever.  

[Michael Powers]

Sorry been down to Rye and Hastings today so missed some of the comments.

Reading the comments from all those who want, no sorry, needs to use these artificial aids to help them play golf reminds me of listening to a junkie trying to justify why he needs his fix. For daring to mention your toys, your argument explodes into banning everything, you mock those who don’t need artificial aids, yet in truth it actually proves your weakness in the game. I do not care if you are a Professional or just a normal player, these aids are just not needed. They have become a fix before every shot. Clearly you feel the need for these artificial aids to play your game, but in reality you do not.

There is no way any of you will accept that they are crutches, a distraction. They have become part of the game over the last 30 -40 years.

We will never agree but you continue to call me names, to accuse me of all sorts, to be totally honest I just don’t give a ‘FOUR’. My game is totally honest I do not use artificial aids, no matter how good or bad my round may be it is based upon my eye/brain coordination, my own ability, all my own work and not based upon some assistance from an artificial toy.

Guys use your toys, return scores like Tiger, but in my eyes you got there by using an artificial aid – like a sprinter winning the Olympic 100M but only with the aid of steroids – IMHO there is no honour in that type of victory – but if that is the way you want to play your game of golf – that’s your choice as currently these aids do not appear to be illegal. 

Melvin,
That was quite a sermon.  I feel so dirty for using one of your evil "Artificial Aids".  You eloquently anwered J's question, "Why the beef?"  And the answer is you folks just can't get past your judgemental selves and feel the need to impose your "golf morality" on others.  I don't care if a guy uses a distance measuring devise or not, but the distain that some feel for us sinners is really something.  Your lecture proves that if nothing else.

[Michael Powers]

.

[JWinick]

Said Michael Powers:

"Melvin, That was quite a sermon.  I feel so dirty for using one of your evil "Artificial Aids".  You eloquently anwered J's question, "Why the beef?"  And the answer is you folks just can't get past your judgemental selves and feel the need to impose your "golf morality" on others.  I don't care if a guy uses a distance measuring devise or not, but the distain that some feel for us sinners is really something.  Your lecture proves that if nothing else."

Well said.   I find it McCarthyistic to call someone a cheater because they use a legal device.  How is that cheating?   You're comparing Tiger Woods using a range finder in a practice round (he does) to a steroid-abusing Olympian?   

[Adam Clayman]

Melvyn plays a game I'm proud to say I recognize.
 
I wonder if using and defending these devices also causes the vitriol witnessed here against someone with a strong independent opinion?

IMO, the only cheating is to yourselves. Of course you won't learn that until your battery dies or the satellite gets hit with space garbage.

[Dan Herrmann]

All I know is that I've had two caddies (one at Pacific Dunes and one at Merion) that were deadly accurate reading putts.  Their yardages were also spot on.

My dinky Sky Caddy can give me yardages, but green reading?  We'll leave that to the pros.

By the way - how do you think the course got the yardages for the sprinklers in the first part? 

[Dean Stokes]

Dan, isn't using a caddie to read your putts an artificial aid then or cheating as Melvyn likes to claim using a range finder is?

How can one possibly claim the score you shot when somebody else is reading the putts for you. I would think this is way more assistance than a range finder. You?

[Melvyn Morrow]

Dean

Childish comments are never a help in an adult debate

Michael

Can you not read, considering that you quoted my last thread, please read the last two lines which are as follows

‘but if that is the way you want to play your game of golf – that’s your choice as currently these aids do not appear to be illegal’.

As for “golf morality”, all I have said (over and over again) is that each golfer does not need artificial aids.

Dean/Michael/JWinick

Your comments are what I expect from players who will resort to any ploy to win – keep your toys well charged, sounds like you need them – sorry you can’t play without them.

As for McCarthy, no I leave that to those over the pond, I am stating my true and honest felt opinion which is of course not acceptable to you. I am waiting for some comment about my parents or Old Tom next.

Guys, your comments project as much yardage as your toys when the batteries are flat.

Thanks Adam

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