[Mike Wagner]

I've played both courses over 20 times, all conditions, and am a 2 handicap.  I find Pacific harder to score on than Bandon based on how the flow fits my game.  Sean's comments hit it on the head for me - Pacific has more card wrecking holes.

Depending on the wind, I feel like I can pick up shots on more stretches at Bandon (especially 16,17,18) compared to "hanging on" at Pacific - there's more trouble with the driver (even #15 Pacific).

Tom's comments are duly noted that Bandon was intended to be much longer, which of course dramatically changes Bandon.

[Wayne_Freedman]

Wind aside, Pacific. Your bunkering requires a finer line, and the course had more elevation changes.
I played Bandon at 3:15 one afternoon, and Pacific at 7:00 the next  morning. Bandon was more forgiving.
At Pacific, if you miss just a little, it can be quite a lot. 18th is a classic example. I was combined two feet from perfection with my drive and approach. Made 7.

For me, the layout at Bandon inspired straighter shots. It was all right there on most holes. Pacific, by comparison, creates more doubt, and that played into my scoring.

I do not understand the wide difference in slopes and course ratings. Bandon from the tips was fine.
At Pacific, I moved up. Maybe the guys had dyslexia.

[Wayne_Freedman]

See above.

[Eric Olsen]

I have made well over 10 trips to Bandon since it first opened in 1999, and have played PD and BD multiple times each trip in a wide variety of conditions.  Our scores are generally better on PD than BD, unless we play BD from the green tees, which we agree are set too far forward for us (roughly all 6-10 handicaps, avg at least 240 off the tee).   I would say that PD is easier to score on than BD, even when playing from the tips of PD agst the tips of BD.  Part of it is length, part of it is that PD gives you many more options around the greens for recovery than BD. 

[John Kavanaugh]

Last time I was there I shot one over on Pacific, making 6 on 18 in complete and total darkness hitting putter so I didn't lose my ball, and didn't break 80 at Bandon earlier the same day.  I think Pacific is easier to score on because of all the par threes coming home.  Nothing quite as simple for a tired pair of legs as a par three.  I have also not found the bunkers at Pacific to be in play as after three rounds have only found one, fairway on four, and made par that one time.  I have gone in the winter now both times and except for one early morning tee time have played in calm warm weather perfect for scoring.

Love the brag threads...the secret jewel of GCA.  btw...Won the father/son at Victoria this weekend with an alternate shot score of 38 for nine holes with my 13 year old son.  Golf without victory is like sex without penetration.

[John Shimp]

Cary,
6 handicaps don't shoot 71, 74, 75, 77 to often .  I know who not to go against if I run into you at a GCA event.   

Those 4 scores alone would constitute 40% of an index and without knowing the rtgs/slopes exactly would likely add up to around a 1.7 index....

[Craig Van Egmond]

For me the front 9 of Pacific has always played the hardest and the back 9 the easiest, with the two 9's at Bandon somewhere in between.

The end result is usually a lower score at the Bandon Dunes course.
 

[Andy Hodson]

After two trips around both, I found Bandon Dunes to be longer and harder. Maybe I was playing the farther back tees that Tom was alluding to.

I played Pacific in 71 (off a scratch hdcp) in alternating wind and rain (it was so windy I had a full bore 5-iron into #18 for my third) the first time around.

I struggled to break 80 at Bandon either time. Could be the pre 7AM tee times there combined with the after affects of the fine Oregonian wines. But I found Bandon tougher by a good measure.

Courses for horses I guess.

[Ari Techner]

I always score better on Pacific than I do on Bandon.  I would say 3-5 shots usually.  I do not think the course is easier I just think I play it better for some reason.  I think I am able to play more creative shots into the greens and I seem to keep my head into my round more for this reason.  The fairways are so wide at Bandon that I seem to lull my driving to sleep and always seem to get sloppy there off the tee.  There is just something about Pacific that I love playing and I guess it shows at the end of the round on the scorecard.  It could be also that I have played Pacific quite a bit more than Bandon.  Id say somewhere in the neighborhood of 250 times on Pacific and 75 times on Bandon.  (I live close) 
My low score at Pacific is 70 my best round is 73 with hickory and a ton of wind.  My low score at Bandon is 73 on a calm day.  I am a 1 handicap. 

[Jed Peters]

And a 75 with hickories with me, Ari!

[Jim Nugent]

Have there been tournaments held at both courses, with golfers of similar abilities, in similar conditions, and would they give us an idea of which course is harder to score on? 

[Bill Satterfield]

I spent three days playing there and played each course three times.  I consistently scored better at Bandon by a few strokes (despite the slope/rating difference) and I think a lot of that is due to the width of the fairways at Bandon made it easier to hit and the length of the holes were more traditional.  The longest par five at Bandon is #5.  Pacific has three par 4s longer than that and when you playing in the howling wind it is difficult to hit those in regulation.  I also think the Bandon layout is a bit more straight forward the first time you play (not saying that is better or worse).  The par 3s are more difficult at Pacific as well (#5 was the toughest for me, difficult to see from the tee exactly what best options existed) with 3 par 3s being equal to or longer than anything at Bandon.  The short par 4s, like #6 at Pacific, are difficult to take advantage of due to the severity of the green site.  For first timers I think Bandon sets up to the eye more traditionally and makes it easier.  Over time I think Pacific offers more creativity and options that could be utilized.  If they were my "home" courses I think Pacific would appeal to me more because of the variety while Bandon would compliment with a nice traditional layout. 

[Tom Jefferson]

I dunno Tom........
......Last Sunday I played 36 holes, at Bandon in a 3 club wind, then in the afternoon at Pac, where the wind was REALLY up (bunt driver from the lower tee on #10, a knockdown 4 on #11). Green markers each time.

I am about a 10, though not playing to that this season, and shot 84/86.

My low score at Bandon is 77, and 75 at Pac the first time I played 18 there, in a morning winter calm 5 birdie fest between storms.

As much as I have played all three courses, I don't feel qualified to discuss the relative difficulties of Bandon/Pac.

I do know that for me the Trails is without a doubt the most difficult.
The uber-tight turf scares me, and the closing stretch, uphill and into the wind, is a tough way to get in with a score.  For me at least.

Best,
Tom

ps....Old Mac is growing in beautifully.

[CHrisB]

I've played each course several times in both casual play and in a four-ball tournament, each time as a plus handicap. Pacific Dunes has always been easier to score on for me, although I must say every time I have ever played Bandon Dunes it seems like the greens have been bumpy and harder on which to hole putts. The par 3's in particular are much harder at Bandon Dunes in my opinion. And there seem to be more birdie opportunities in general at Pacific Dunes. All in all I like Pacific Dunes much better than Bandon Dunes. (Not because it's easier, though--I think Bandon Trails might be the hardest course of the three, but I like it at least as much as I like Pacific Dunes.)

I found the results of the four-ball tournament I played in, during which we played rounds 3 and 4 at Pacific and Bandon Dunes on consecutive days in very similar weather conditions (we also played Pacific in round 1, and Bandon Trails in round 2)--nice, dry, ~10 mph wind. Of 16 teams in the championship division, the stroke average was 2.2 shots in relation to par lower on Pacific than on Bandon Dunes. We played with the winning team on both of those days, and they shot 61 at Pacific and 69 at Bandon Dunes. In the senior flight, the scores in relation to par were about the same on each course. In the net flight (best-ball net), scores were actually a shot lower in relation to par on Bandon Dunes than they were on Pacific Dunes. So maybe this data point supports the notion that Pacific is easier for better players, and harder for higher handicaps.

[Doug Wright]

Tom,

For me it's pretty close between the two based on about 6 rounds at each. I'd say I probably score slightly higher on average at Bandon Dunes. It seems easier to run off a string of bogies at Bandon than at Pacific, and it seems easier to make a couple birdies at Pacific, but also some "others." I'm not that long off the tee, and Bandon seems quite a bit longer to me. For some reason my short game seems better at Pacific even though the recovery shots often are harder.

My scoring range is tighter at Bandon Dunes--usually between 80-85. At Pacific, I've shot anywhere from 77 to 97 with more rounds right around 80 than 90. I've only played in winter with pretty decent conditions and winds not greater than 20. Handicap 5-6.

[David Botimer]

Having observed my fair share of rounds on both courses, from the same yardages (black OR green tees), Bandon is definitely easier across all skill levels.  For our average resort guest (I'd guess the median handicap to be 10-12) Pacific plays 3-5 shots more difficult to par.  That number probably grows as the handicap goes up, meaning the slope ratings for both courses are possibly inaccurate.  Bandon's might be a little high, but Pacific's is definitely low.

Pacific has too many forced carries, bunkers and elevated greens to match up with the prevailing wind to make the slope rating valid.  I've asked a O.G.A. course rater if they factor prevailing weather into assessing course rating / slope and the answer was yes.  To which I say, NOT ENOUGH.

Interestingly, the O.G.A.'s website lists the 20 most difficult courses in the state and that list has Bandon as #1, from the tournament tees never played (about 7,200 yards) and Pacific is not on the list.

[Tom Huckaby]

David:

I am a course rater for the NCGA (Northern California).  We all use the same system.  And yes, wind is factored in most definitely.  We use the average summer wind speed and direction, as reported by course officials, and confirmed if necessary with other sources.

At a place like Bandon this does get problematic, as the days of high wind speed certainly get gusts way above the average!  Then you also have the two different winds based on season....

BUT... I'd still say in the end, taking all rounds over all times, the course ratings and slopes are accurate.  Oh there certainly are days when each course plays a lot tougher than those numbers would indicate... but there are also days with no wind when each would play easier.

[CHrisB]

Tom Doak,

When Pacific Dunes first opened, what would you have expected the answer to your question to be?

Did you have a goal for how easy/difficult you wanted to make Pacific Dunes compared to its neighbor?

[Mike Benham]

Hey, when we talk about the ability to score on a course, don't we usually talk about the ability to make eagles and birdies, to go LOW?

As Kavanaugh notes, I could care less what your score was, which course has more holes where you can be aggressive, has risk/reward, gives you the opportunity to go LOW? 

For me, Pacific gives more opportunity to score on making Bandon harder to score on.

... For our average resort guest (I'd guess the median handicap to be 10-12) ...

I would be shocked and amazed if the median handicap was  that low.  I believe the NGF says that only 20% or so US golfer score better then 90 on a regulation course with the average score being 97.

On a sampling of this website participants, I don't think the average or median handicap was that low ...

Perhaps only the good golfers go to Bandon ...

[Tom_Doak]

Chris:

I didn't really think about how hard I wanted the course to be compared to Bandon -- we wanted it to be different.  I consciously wanted to make Pacific shorter, to provide more chances for birdie and more chances to make a big number, and it sounds as if we succeeded on both counts.

[Tim Bert]

Hey, when we talk about the ability to score on a course, don't we usually talk about the ability to make eagles and birdies, to go LOW?

As Kavanaugh notes, I could care less what your score was, which course has more holes where you can be aggressive, has risk/reward, gives you the opportunity to go LOW? 

For me, Pacific gives more opportunity to score on making Bandon harder to score on.

... For our average resort guest (I'd guess the median handicap to be 10-12) ...

I would be shocked and amazed if the median handicap was  that low.  I believe the NGF says that only 20% or so US golfer score better then 90 on a regulation course with the average score being 97.

On a sampling of this website participants, I don't think the average or median handicap was that low ...

Perhaps only the good golfers go to Bandon ...

What amazes me is how many freaking people on this web site "routinely" shoot their handicap or better at these two courses.  If you're all using the "I call my average score my handicap" system that was debated a few months ago I could understand it.  If you all have registered GHIN handicaps, I'm never playing any of you for money!!!  Both of these courses, regardless of which is harder, ought to be harder than the average course for a mid-handicapper, so the percentages would tell you that most players wouldn't shoot their index here.  How is it that my group is the only one that doesn't routinely break 80, let alone 90?!? 

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