IS Shinney #10 the most underrated hole in all of golf?

[George Pazin]

My strongest memory of the (wonderful) 2004 US Open is top player after top player standing in the 10th fairway with a wedge in his hand, trying to figure out how to make a par on a 410 yard hole with no water. I thought it was simply remarkable.

Does it always play this tough, or was it simply the maintenance meld of the Open?

Is it always this (amazingly) vexing?

Why is it so rarely mentioned among the world's great par 4s, particularly given it's modest length? Or is it, and I just never noticed?

And why, oh why, aren't there more holes like this? Damn, with the hills around here in western PA, we are just begging for a hole like this around here. (Of course, given how little I play anymore, there may be more holes like this in western PA that I'm not aware of...)

A description and photo of the hole are at the top of the second page of the Shinnecock review on this site.

P 2 Shinnecock review on golfclubatlas

Please share your thoughts and experiences.

[JESII]

Not by me...it's one of my favorites.

How many holes let you drive it to 80 yards just so you could wish you had laid back to 180?

[jkinney]

In the final round of the '04 Open, Goosen & Els each hit 2 iron downwind into the first cut of rough on the right edge of the fairway on the upslope no more then 80 yds. from the hole. They BOTH bogeyed ! Norman made a snowman there in either '86 or '95 during the weekend. I don't think any of the Pros underrate the hole. They would gladly skip it if they could put a 4 on their scorecards.

I suspect the reason for 10's relative lack of exposure and attention has to do with its competition on Shinny's backside. It is merely one of many memorable designs. And Thom's Elbow (14) is one of Golf Mag's 18 greatest holes in the world. Speaking of which, those of you who haven't been to Shinny this year won't have seen that the row of old houses between the clubhouse and 14 tee has been razed, with only Shinnecock House standing by the road. The entire expanse of Thom's Elbow is now visible from the clubhouse, AND room has been made for a new championship tee further up the clubhouse hill. Talk about making a great hole greater !!

[Ed Oden]

I absolutely loved the 10th.  I thought it had a very different feel than any other hole on the course, mostly due to its geography.  It seemed to me to be a necessary transition hole to get you from the clubhouse at the turn over to the 11-13 loop.  In my experience, a transition hole with a different feel usually disappoints.  That definitely is not the case at Shinny.  The blind tee shot and left to right cant of the fairway make it difficult to get the right line to find the fairway below.  Its hard enough hitting that green with a wedge from the fairway.  Good luck from the thick rough.  Here is a picture:

[wsmorrison]

Interestingly, the 10th green is the only green bigger than it was on opening day.  The green was extended in the back left at some point and remains that way today.  When the tee box on 11 is lowered, the view will be even better than seen in Ed's photo.

Glad to hear the outbuildings were razed.  We photoshopped the buildings out and showed them to the Board.  They loved the look.  Can't wait to see it.

[Ed Oden]

Interestingly, the 10th green is the only green bigger than it was on opening day.  The green was extended in the back left at some point and remains that way today.  When the tee box on 11 is lowered, the view will be even better than seen in Ed's photo.

Wayne, the 11th tee is being lowered?  It was already unusually uphill for such a short hole.  How do you think that will change the hole visually as well as its playability?  Are there any changes being made to the green to match the lowered tee?

Ed

[wsmorrison]

Ed,

I don't know if the tee will be lowered, but I think it will.  It was built up somewhat recently and there is significant talk about returning it to the original height, about 3' lower.  The green will once again be a skyline green, especially when trees in the distant background beyond the 12th green are lowered. 

Nothing will be done to the green.  It is as it always has been.  I'd like to see the sand flashed up to the top of the bunkers as it used to be.  The skyline green and flashed bunkers will be even scarier.  Imagine that if you will.

[TEPaul]

Mr Dear Mr. Pazin:

For your information, in the '04 Open the tenth fairway was the only one on the course where a section of about 4,000 sf on the right side of the fairway at the bottom of the hill had to be protected by netting. The fairways were so tight and "fast" and the slope is so great left to right over the end of the fairway ridge on #10 that all balls inevitably collected in that app. 4,000 foot area (leaving a shot in of about 75-80 yards). It had to be protected until the tournament began.

[Chris Cupit]

OK, I'll be the sacrificial lamb and say I think this may be one of the worst holes I've seen in tournament golf.  Let me qualify by saying I love the course and it's world class and being the "worst" part of a Mona Lisa is a relative thing.

But, in firm and fast conditions the hole is a joke--gimmiky-- almost as unplayable as #7.  The tee shot that needs "protecting" highlights what I similarly hate about catch basins all over courses today--nothing more than collection areas for far too many balls and a soon to be divot filled mess of "fairway".  The green is so severe that combined with really fast speeds the hole depends more on luck than anything else.  I'm not saying luck isn't a part of the game and I am not saying golf is meant to be "fair" but when a green is better approached from light rough versus fairway so as to reduce spin (and spinning 50-60 yards back down the fairway into another divot filled collection area) I think that's just stupid.

It is absolutely no reflection on the design of the hole or the fact that 99.9% of the time the hole plays beautifully.  But, when the best players in the world can't keep the ball on the green from the fairway with a wedge, the shot demanded is a tricked up joke.  Those guys are so phenomenal with there wedges that anyone who has ever played at that level or been around play at that level knows that the fan pleasing disasters are due not to any great architecture but a ruination of that archtecture due to very unusual circumstances.

OK--awaiting my thrashing

[ChipOat]

I have to agree with Chris Cupit on this one - for the most part.  The maintenance meld on #10 did make the hole nearly as unplayable as #7 - and with a wedge usually being the club of choice for the approach.

The only way to keep the ball on the green was to bounce it off the mound to the left of the green - a nearly microscopic landing area.  A couple of members I know think that the world's greatest golfers should have figured that out.  I think the place where the ball had to land for that play to work (and it does work, BTW) was way too small - like 50-75 square feet (feet, not yards), or so.That hole is not underrated.

#13 at Shinnecock might be the most underrated hole in championship golf, though.

[Tom_Doak]

Chris:

You beat me to it; I was going to post that I am sure this is one of the more difficult holes in championship golf, but I'm not sure it's one of the best. 

The funny thing is, I think it's okay for the pros, as long as the maintenance meld hasn't gone off the deep end.  Downwind, they can get down to the bottom of the hill on their drives, though it's still a very hard approach shot when it's downwind; and if it's into the wind, they might even be able to carry the valley from 180 yards away. 

A 15-handicapper has no chance of doing either of the above.

[JESII]

Great posts from those last three, and I'll need more than my five minute diaper changing break from the block party to weigh in in-full...be back later.

One question...the final round of the '04 Open made it look really wierd...would you guys say the same thing if the wind were into to the point tha players laid up to the top of the hill at 180?  Also, do you think they could have hit the green easier on Sunday on '04 from 180 than they showed from 80?

[Peter Pallotta]

Good thread, thanks. Some random thoughts and a question:

To my eye, it's just a lovely-looking hole; very pretty, and it 'moves' right. And at 410 and with the way the fairway drops and rises, it's just a very interesting length: a championship hole that can be played by the Seniors, the PGA, the Ladies Tour and even these young bombers in the NCAA I keep reading about -- and I imagine would play differently for each. How does it play (and how is it set-up) for the members? Is it one of the harder holes on the course?

Peter

[TEPaul]

Chris and Chip and TomD:

Those are some interesting takes of yours on the playability of #10 and particularly combined with the maintenance meld in something like the Open.

But here's something to think about on that note.

When I was younger (over 40 years ago now re Shinnecock) I used to play there all the time. I didn't start playing good golf until I was about 35 because I never played that much but when I was in my teens or early 20s if I would get into a game generally partnering with my Dad against some of his friends he would just assign me an 11 handicap and it seemed to work out fine (I didn't even have an official handicap until I was about 35).

Anyway, the point of all this is back then I played Shinnecock quite often (maybe 50+ times) and I remember well the tee shot on #10. I basically never got it to the bottom of the hill---eg I would generally hit it to the end of the ridge and from there (maybe about a 175 yards) just hit it onto the green no problem.

So if that's really hard to do today it's just got to be the maintenance meld on that green because it was sure no big deal over 40 years ago.

[JESII]

Peter,

For starters, yes, I think it must be one of the three of four most difficult holes under most any conditions.



Chris Cupit,

Did you think spinning off the green or bouncing over the green was the greater problem on that Sunday. My memory (usually off, just ask...) was that these guys either didn't spin it enough, or didn't carry it far enough. The front is steep, but the green is greater than 20 yards deep so these unbelievable wedge players (which I do not doubt in the least) had some room to land and stop it...Retief actually did it on Sunday...the two key shots were #7 tee and #10 fairway and RG got both on the green, that's why he won. As to the issue with divots, two things; 4,000sq. ft. (quoted from TEP) is a big friggin area...and...how about if they stretched the green another 15 yards to the right in that area...the approach would not be any easier. I say they should have laid up on Sunday when the wind was making that green play so small from down at the bottom.



Chipoat,

Agree 100% on #13.


Tom Doak,

Disagree with everything you said...why do you think the pros "should" get down to the bottom of the hill?

[JESII]

Tom,

What's "hard" today is hitting it only 220 yards to reach that 175 spot...the spot is still the best place to play the hole from.

[TEPaul]

Sully:

If 175 yards is still a good place to approach that green from I really don't get what the difficutly would be of approaching it from 75-80 yards from the base of the hill.

[JESII]

Sully:

If 175 yards is still a good place to approach that green from I really don't get what the difficutly would be of approaching it from 75-80 yards from the base of the hill.

When's the last time you actually experienced the difference?

[Jim Nugent]

Can you punch/bounce your 2nd shot onto that green from wedge distance?  i.e. ground game. 

Sully -- I thought Goose won because of the most unreal putting I've ever seen on the final nine of a major.  That, and a small but lethal miscalculation by Phil on #17. 

[Ray Richard]

It's nice to see a photo of that hole with grass on the green. During the Open that green was 75% dead grass--it was a burnt orange color. We watched #10 all day from the bleachers on #11 and the only shot that worked was a wedge with plenty of spin that landed about 10 feet in front of the green and rolled up to the pin. If you hit the green with your second shot you were gone.
I don't like the hole-uphill shot with a blind pin with restricted driving options is too much.

[Chris Cupit]

JES II

I thought most were coming up short--hitting into the slope and coming back down maybe more so than spinning backwards but all in an attempt to avoid going long into the back rough which was death.  Long in the rough meant any shot toward the hole would most likely skate past the hole and 50-60 yards down the fairway (back where one started).  I thought I remembered shots that were long were then played sideways along the length of the green to avoid this which I thought was a bit much.

20 paces is not a very deep green particularly when a good portion of the front is so severe as to be unusable and the greens are very, very firm.  It seemed like there was an area of about 3, maybe 4 yards deep on which you could land you ball and keep it on the green somewhere.  A 3-4 yard "target" from 175 is silly (if you think that is where one should "attack" the hole from) and even from 80 yards when it's semi-blind and uphill is also silly.

I don't remember everything but if Reteif kept his ball on the greens on 7 and 10 he hit excellent shots combined with significant luck.  Again, luck is part of the game but I think #7 and #10 were over the top on this particular day--again an extremely rare instance.  With the greens "normal" firm and fast as opposed to "baked and ridiculous speeds" I think 10 is fine and an excellent hole.   (#7 is an excellent hole as well).

Reteif won for numerous reasons but I do remember he had something like 11 or 12 putts on the last nine holes.  He wasn't able to hit greens much better than the other players but he was able to get the ball in the hole with fewer strokes and that's all that matters.  I'm not trying to diminish his win at all because: 1.  I think he is a great player/champion and 2. I think the entire notion that a US Open set up is about hitting fairways and greens is pretty much BS--it seems to me it's more about being the guy that gets up and down the best as everyone struggles hitting fairways and greens.  Wedge, putter and great mental toughness.

[TEPaul]

"When's the last time you actually experienced the difference?"

I guess I could say I hit a couple of balls from the 100- yardage to that green in the last few years. It was not a problem but it also wasn't exactly a '04 US Open setup either.

Clearly, I'm extremely interested in these kinds of things because it is of real interest to me to figure out precisely WHERE all the ramifications of a particular maintenance meld begin to go from doable playability-wise to over the top, and certainly for a quality player.

[Matt_Cohn]

So basically the tough thing is that it's uphill, downwind to a shallow, hard green and you can't really run the ball up. I also don't understand why that would be easier from 175 yards than 100?

[Mark_Fine]

Matt,
It is not!

[Jon Wiggett]

Matt,

from 100 yards you expect to hit it close, not just hit the green. From 175 atleast you can start to tell yourself it isn't so bad a miss and save a little bit of your ego