Pine Valley or Shinnecock.....Which is # 1 in the USA ?

[jkinney]

IMO, PV and Shinny are without question in a league by themselves for #1 in the country. My vote goes to Shinny. What say you all ? I'll keep a tally.

[TEPaul]

My vote goes to both of them as #1 in the USA.   

But if you are going to make me choose between them I need to ask you a very serious question first and that is----Do you think Shinnecock should be ranked above or below Pine Valley because the Shinny clubhouse has no heating or air conditioning?

I'm serious, mr jkinney. How would you like to spend most of the day upstairs in Shinnecock's archive room in October when its about 37 degrees outside and there's no heat in the clubhouse? 

[David Stamm]

Cypress Point Club.

[jkinney]

Mr. Paul - I hadn't thought about that. But now that you've brought it up, it makes me favor Shinny even more.
And God bless Stanford White for the perfect clubhouse design. So what say ye finally. Are PV and Shinny equal, or is one better ?

[TEPaul]

"Are PV and Shinny equal, or is one better ?"

Mr jkinney, I refuse to answer that question on the grounds it may tend to incriminate me.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Sorry but Shinny isn't number one if you only consider the area within 5 miles around Shinny!

JC

[Dan Herrmann]

Why does one need to be better?  They're obviously both Great!

[Jim Franklin]

PV is #1.

[wsmorrison]

It would be far more interesting if the participants here provide a bit of detail as to the reasoning behind the simple statements. 

[Jerry Kluger]

There have been comments made that PV is in serious need of tree work - is that nitpicking or is it true?

Does Shinnecock depend upon the wind to show its true character and maximize the design features?

[JSlonis]

Cypress Point Club.

I have never played Cypress Point, so I don't have a frame of reference.  The one thing I always seem to hear about cypress is... the lack of anything positive about the 18th hole there.  For those of you on this board that have played the course, is the 18th really that bad when compared to the rest of the course?  And if so, does it detract from the entire course enough to knock it down a bit compared to either PV or SHGC?

A good friend of mine has played both and although he thought the beauty of Cypress was fantastic, in his opinion, hole by hole, Pine Valley is a superior course.

[TEPaul]

jkinney:

Since I'm no fan at all of ranking I can't really get into putting either one of these courses over or under the other but what I will say, and have said, is I do think both of them could be at the top or in the top five in the world, no question.

Wayne made a good point about don't just say which one belongs on top but explain why.

That's a big subject but I will say, in my opinion, not only do both those courses belong there but the most interesting point is they are so very different from one another in so many ways and that both explains and highlights just how DIVERSE really good courses and really great golf course architecture can be.

As Bill Coore once said---the real deal of the art form of golf architecture is in its vast difference---in its wide spectrum---eg differences.

Maybe this is just mostly me but I've always felt Pine Valley is an example of a course that looks remarkably hard but isn't quite as hard as it looks (at least for a good player) while Shinnecock is at the opposite end of the spectrum that way---eg it just doesn't look as "shot value" demanding as it really is and in that just may be its real mystery and real architectural quality that puts it up there at or near the top.

[John Kirk]

One thing this thread may accomplish is ferreting out those few participabts who have played both.  Two of our members who have played both courses have posted without committing to an opinion.

I haven't played Pine Valley.  I was lucky enough to play Shinnecock last summer and thought it was sublime, one of my greatest golf experiences.  I love the look, the feel, the flow, the maintenance, the ambience...everything about the place.

One must never underestimate his/her own bias in determing which course is better.  I grow fonder of a great course the more I play it, and a course in one's own backyard or home takes on special meaning.  Players who play Pine Valley regularly, or are members of Pine Valley, are likely to believe it is the best.  Californians like David Stamm will probably continue to believe Cypress Point is the best, whether he plays the other two or not.

I'm a west coast guy, and I like California and Oregon courses.  I also like the modern designs by Doak and Coore/Crenshaw.  I love Pacific Dunes and Sand Hills and Ballyneal and Friar's Head, with their modern grasses and perfect firm and fast playing conditions.  I look forward to courses like Rock Creek, Old Macdonald and the Dormie Club.

Anyway, I just wanted to throw out the notion there are strong biases at play when any individual picks his favorite.

[Jim Franklin]

I have played both and think both are in the top 5 I have played so picking one from the other is like picking one child over another. I chose PV as #1 because it has more design variety. Not that Shinny doesn't have it, but I think PV is more varied. Hell I could wake up tomorrow and pick Shinny and not lose any sleep.

[David Stamm]

Cypress Point Club.

I have never played Cypress Point, so I don't have a frame of reference.  The one thing I always seem to hear about cypress is... the lack of anything positive about the 18th hole there.  For those of you on this board that have played the course, is the 18th really that bad when compared to the rest of the course?  And if so, does it detract from the entire course enough to knock it down a bit compared to either PV or SHGC?

 

I didn't have a issue with 18 at all, Jamie. I actually though it was a cool hole. I can see how some might take issue w/ it however. I haven't played PV or Shinny so I don't have much crediblity on this.

[archie_struthers]

 


Having played both , watched tournament s at both ,  and think both are fabulous tests of gofl, albeit different.  

Pine Valley is aerial golf at it finest, with a little bump and run thrown in for good measure  (4/12/13)  ....arguably the best greens in the world for their brilliant design  ...  it becomes exponentially difficult at stroke play for amateurs as their handicaps increase from zero (0)   ....and under tournament conditions it can test the best players in the world  ...as Shinnecock has certainly proven!  The place has a tranquil beauty that must be seen to be appreciated

Shinnecock is  a fabulous test of championship golf, it's probably a little more fun for members play on a dail y basis than Pine Valley...which can be a very good thing..It is located on one of the best  pieces of land for golf in America, as evidenced by the greatness of the neighboring courses  !   It is the closest thing to Ireland that I've played  in the states, which is a  very good thing.....After I played Shinnecock for the first time it was my favorite course , we played right before a hurricane watch in late September , the wind was blowing
the air had  a crisp smell of the ocean ...and then I played Merion at its finest two weeks later...for the twentieth or so time, and was confused as to my favorite once again...
.

Doesn't it beg the age old question about beauty  by the way who is who is better looking, Charlize Theron,  
Diane Lane, or Jessica Alba.....good luck with that one too! LOL!

Forget the clubhouse....food .....ambience .....caddies.....ac  (lol) ...ease of access and all the other things that make a golf course your personal favorite.........I remember Dave Thomas ...the founder of Wendy's ...pulled me aside after his first trip to Pine Valley in the parking lot and said " Archie"  what am I missing   ....it's hot as hell  ....there's no room service...my bed is hard (pre-cottages) and I have to share the mens room with a bunch of old fat men ...lol...he really said it !    He then said as an aside. I can't play any of these blasted holes anyway  ....Dave loved golf but wasn't much of a purist or player for that matter ....sooooooooo.....isn't beauty in the eye of the beholder ?

I hate rankings but architecturally ... for our purposes here on GCA ...isn't that the top critierai for our review in this forum......can you really beat Pine Valley .... it's pretty hard to match up with the brilliance ,hole after hole  of  great architecture...it just doesn't have any real weaknesses ...there are no mistakes ..... no weak holes .....I don't think I have ever played a golf course that can make this claim......

[Jim Franklin]

Having played both , watched tournament s at both ,  and think both are fabulous tests of gofl, albeit different.  

Pine Valley is aerial golf at it finest, with a little bump and run thrown in for good measure  (4/12/13)  ....arguably the best greens in the world for their brilliant design  ...  it becomes exponentially difficult at stroke play for amateurs as their handicaps increase from zero (0)  ...handicaps increase ....and under tournament conditions
can test the best players in the world  ...Ive seen it!  The place has a tranquil beauty that must be seen to be appreciated

Shinnecock is  a fabulous test of championship golf, as the many Opens witnessed by most of us in person or on TV...It is located on one of the greatest pieces of land for golf in America, as evidenced by the greatness of the neighboring courses  !   It is the closest thing to Ireland that I've played  in the states, which is a  very good thing.....After I played Shinnecock for the first time it was my favorite course , we played right before a hurricane watch in late September , the wind was blowing
the air had  a crisp smell of the ocean ...and then I played Merion at its finest two weeks later...for the twentieth or so time, and was confused as to my favorite...

.it begs the old question who is better looking, Charlise Therion,  
Diane Lane, or Jessica Alba.....good luck with that one too! LOL!

Forget the clubhouse....food .....ambience .....caddies.....ac  (lol) ...ease of access and all the other things that make a golf course your personal favorite.........I remember Dave Thomas ...the founder of Wendy's ...pulled me aside after his first trip to Pine Valley in the parking lot and said " Archie"  what am I missing   ....it's hot as hell  ....there's no room service...my bed is hard (pre-cottages) and I have to share the mens room with a bunch of old fat men ...lol...he really said it !    He then said as an aside. I can't play any of these blasted holes anyway  ....Dave loved golf but wasn't much of a purist or player for that matter ....sooooooooo.....isn't beauty in the eye of the beholder ?

I hate rankings but architecturally ...which is what this site is all about  it's pretty hard to match up with the brilliance ....hole after hole of the architecture at Pine Valley...it just doesn't have any real weaknesses ...there are no mistakes ..... no weak holes .....I don't think I have ever played a golf course that can make this claim......

As to golf architecture  ....in my opinion it is the best I've ever seen or played.....this doesn't make it your favorite....as noted above

Very well said. I agree with your analysis and that is why Cypress Point is still my favorite.

[John Mayhugh]

Jeremy,
I can't offer an informed opinion on which of these courses is best as I've never been fortunate enough to play either.  I think choosing between the two is an interesting exercise, but I'm more interested in your basic premise that those two courses are in league of their own.

Both Shinnecock & Pine Valley are significantly better than Cypress Point, NGLA, Oakmont, & Merion?  I've played two of these "second tier" courses and it's hard for me to imagine how there is a league above them.

Maybe one day I'll be able to argue the point.  For now, I'll agree with Tom Paul who said "not only do both those courses belong there but the most interesting point is they are so very different from one another in so many ways and that both explains and highlights just how DIVERSE really good courses and really great golf course architecture can be."

Discussing the differences between great courses is so much more exciting than determining which is better. 

[TEPaul]

"Both Shinnecock & Pine Valley are significantly better than Cypress Point, NGLA, Oakmont, & Merion?  I've played two of these "second tier" courses and it's hard for me to imagine how there is a league above them."


John Mayhugh:

This is a completely excellent point and probably the primary reason I've just never seen the ultimate point or utility in ranking golf courses or architecture numerically for quality. This on-going fixation which is probably mostly American of trying to consider things as "better by the numbers" is not productive in the end, particularly if one really wants to get into the details and sophisticated elements of golf course architecture.

All the courses you mentioned and their architecture are truly in the excellent category in their own and often unique ways and the real deal is not so much to compare them but to contrast them and their architectural elements to see why their differences from one another still serve to make both them and their architecture great and definitely enduring and famous.

[wsmorrison]

While Pine Valley and Shinnecock Hills are very different in some regards, there is a bit of Pine Valley in the design of Shinnecock Hills.  Flynn watched the development of Pine Valley, helped finish the course, built the alternate 9th green added some tees and designed and constructed the bunkers below the 2nd and 18th greens.  He was a member of the club and his partner in the construction business, Howard Toomey, held a seat on the executive board.  They both have sandy waste areas, though SHGC's have been lost to some extent and in other cases more formalized over time.  They both have their share of ground/aerial option holes and aerial demand holes.  They both have falloffs around the greens though Shinnecock's are (and always have been) closely mown while Pine Valley's are rough.  They both are routed brilliantly to utilize natural topographical features as well as creating variable wind directions throughout the round of play.  Flynn's greens at SHGC (all 18 are Flynn greens) have complex integrated slopes, which are hard to read.  Pine Valley's greens can have as much internal contouring as I've ever seen (2d) in addition to complexities of slope, but a bit less complex than Flynn greens.  I believe there is a lot more overall slope in the Pine Valley greens.  At today's green speeds, they are very challenging.

Shinnecock Hills is my favorite golf course in the world.  Interestingly, there is essentially no water in play, while Pine Valley has very little and quite good use of water in play.  The pond on 6 is only in play for foozeled shots.  SHGC uses offset angles on tee shots and approach shots.  The green restoration project returns pin positions near falloffs and behind bunkers that adds a great deal of strategy to a very strategic course.  Returning the topline to the right fairway bunker on 5 will hide the landing area beyond thus returning a perspective miscue that has gone missing for a long time.   The bunkers and undulating sandy waste hazards were increased on the flat holes.  The more topographic sections utilize the natural ground interest with less reliance on man-made features.

Pine Valley on the other hand has more variety hole to hole than any course I've ever seen.  I'm sure that appeals to many and gives it the edge.  It has wide fairways but real danger lurking on any shot that strays too far from the fairways.  It has a look to it that is most unique.  Pine Valley and Merion introduced the concept of shot testing and a balance of aerial/ground option holes with aerial demands--a characteristic of the Philadelphia School.  Shinnecock Hills is the direct descendant of this practice and shares with Pine Valley the use of undulating sandy waste areas.   

Shinnecock Hills is the most playable course for the widest range of players (from octogenarian ladies to Tiger Woods) yet offers a supreme challenge to the very best players in the world.  It is a great example of enjoyable difficulty.  This feature, not found at Pine Valley, makes Shinnecock Hills, to me anyway, the greatest course in the world.  Pine Valley and Merion are very close seconds because they are not as playable for as wide a range of golfers.

[Voytek Wilczak]

PV has more magic.

[Chris Garrett]

Excellent question, and an impossible one to answer from an objective point of view.  Throw in the other courses mentioned (Cypress, Oakmont, Merion, NGLA), and they are all in the top tier of golf courses in the US.  I feel as though one can distinguish the clubs architecturally, historically, etc.  They all have so many great qualities to them, with very few if any detractions, that choosing one course over another comes down to a matter of personal preference.  I've not played any of the mentioned courses, yet I have walked Shinnecock and PV.  If you asked which course I would rather play, I would most likely have to flip a coin.

[Paul Nash]

As someone who has never played in the US, how much better would you say that Pine Valley is than Woodhall Spa, which has, on several posts I have read, been described as Britain's PV?

[Mark Chaplin]

Paul - I've played both and whilst Woodhall is a brutal test of golf it doesn't have the finesse of PV especially around the greens. In many ways the penal qualities of Woodhall's deep bunkers and heather are tougher than PV, ball positioning and short game however receive a far tougher examination at PV. PV also wins hands down on conditioning, ambience & overall experience. Both involve a different approach experience - PV the amusements & railroad, Woodhall miles of nothing!

JM - CPC, NGLA, Merion & Oakmont 2nd tier?? Surely they are all fellow top tier courses.

[G Jones]

I've played both and have a personal preference for one of them. Additionally, I think we all accept that there are vast differences between the two courses (which have been debated here many times before) and yet both are appealing in many similar ways and many different ways. Any attempt at ranking golf courses is so subjective that worrying about such a small distinction as between 1st and 2nd or 3rd in the USA is crazy. It's spurious accuracy, given that many people involved in the ranking process will be on each side of any particular argument.

At the end of the day, I think we need to stop thinking of rankings as some sort of sports league where the course at the top wins. Any ranking tells you as much if not more about the people who compiled it (and the aspects of a course/club that they feel is important) as it does the courses. We might as well be ranking symphonies based solely on how a particular orchestra played them.

...and this isn't to say that it isn't fun to try to rank them... but lets ask 'which one do you personally think is better and why' rather than 'which is no.1 in the USA'.

...just some rambling thoughts. I think I got a bit too much sun on the course today!