My tour of Jack Frost National (Blakeslee, PA) w/ pics

[Joe Bausch]

After the classic style William Flynn designed Deerfield was toured on Monday, I went for a contrast and drove to the Poconos to see the relatively new Jack Frost National.  Their web page says this is a Terry LaGree design.

Mike Cirba, Rob Waldron, and a few others have already talked about this course (part of the Billy Casper Golf stable of courses) but I don't think there have been any pictures.  With previous mentions in the archives of GCA.com where architectural attribution is maybe not clear, perhaps some jpegs are needed!

The course has you start on No 10.  I asked the young fellow working the front desk in what is a fancy trailer right now and he said since there are some grow-in issues with the back nine (he said lots of rain washed away parts of fairways, which they are now sodding in places) they would rather have you start on the 'less finished' nine then enjoy the front nine which is pretty much ready for prime time.

Because of the back nine not being fully grown in, I'm not going to present many pictures from that side.  Ok, let's do it!

#1:  fairly simple opening par 4 where only a wild guy like me could miss the fairway!



This is the first of a few greens where there are two levels, the left side sitting lower than the right.



#2:  dogleg right par 4 (365 yards from the 'advanced' tees)





#3:  a 175 yard par 3 over some junk.





#4:  almost a double dogleg par 5, right off the tee and little bend left at the green, this 527 yard hole is perhaps the easiest birdie hole on the course b/c if you take a drive over the edge of the trees right you can be left with a mid to short iron in.







#5:  shortish (338 yards) slight dogleg left par 4, where the bunker to the left in the 2nd pic probably gobbles up gorillas smoking a drive.   It was a Tuesday but we sure had a bunch of 'Sunday pins' and it was fun trying to get at them.





As we came up to the next tee a gaggle of turkeys was crossing right in front of the tee box.  They were fast little fellows and are well camouflaged for being in high grass in the summer.  Can you pick out the adults from the young ones in the weeds?



#6:  the first of two pretty long (400+) and straight par 4s.





#7:  this one plays 413 yards.





#8:  the longest par 3 at JFN, this one plays almost 200 yards, where if you are walking, you could get a bit tired here as there is no footbridge over the junk.



#9:  a really scenic par 5 finishes the nine at JFN, with a steady uphill climb that makes the hole play much longer than the card yardage of 495.







#11:  here is my limited photo coverage of the back nine, this downhill par 3 playing about 150 yards.





Here is a pic of the 11th green from the 12th tee (it looks like it could be a darn good hole this way too!).  I found these two bunkers over the green to seem somewhat out of place, where I think only one would be sufficient, if that.  But in the first pic you can see that there is a road leading up to the course by the green and maybe these bunkers are mostly there for curb appeal. 



The twilight rate (after 2 PM) was 40 bucks, so JFN doesn't break the bank.  As others have stated already, I think the course might be a year or two away from being in condition to appeal to even more people.

[Matt_Ward]

Joe:

The place looks like it's a basic straight razor cut from the trees ... the pictures you posted show really little that's compelling to merit more of a ride to go there outside 50 miles.

Is playing there really worth the $4+ gas per gallon rate ?

[Joe Bausch]

Joe:

The place looks like it's a basic straight razor cut from the trees ... the pictures you posted show really little that's compelling to merit more of a ride to go there outside 50 miles.

Is playing there really worth the $4+ gas per gallon rate ?

How 'bout this retort Matt:  what about JFN don't you like from the pictures?  Besides the fact that it is in Pennsylvania and that 'national' is in the name?   

[astavrides]

Joe:

The place looks like it's a basic straight razor cut from the trees ... the pictures you posted show really little that's compelling to merit more of a ride to go there outside 50 miles.

Is playing there really worth the $4+ gas per gallon rate ?

How 'bout this retort Matt:  what about JFN don't you like from the pictures?  Besides the fact that it is in Pennsylvania and that 'national' is in the name?   

im sure matt is quite capable of speaking for himself, but it looks rather ordinary to me too.  i think the burden of proof (or at least 'opinion') is upon you.

[Mike_Cirba]

Matt,

Let me take a stab...

JFN is over 7800 yards from the tips, with a course rating of 76.8 and a slope rating of 152.

It features demanding drives, many of which must carry over 250 yards of crap to reach playable terra firma, and then approaches that must be threaded on a needle or risk falling into deep crevases, canyons, blue aqua, and hell itself.

The greens require the touch of a jeweler to have any chance at all of avoiding a three or four  or even five putt.

One stands over each shot with the fear of God within their soul, and nary a player actually ever reaches the 18th hole before leaving, simply because they've run out of golf balls.





Sorry...couldn't help myself.   

[Andy Hughes]

Well, the course may be ok, but it certainly is no Glenbrook...

Joe, thanks for the pics and write-up. The ninth looks from the pics to be the best of the bunch--is that so?

[Joe Bausch]

The ninth looks from the pics to be the best of the bunch--is that so?

Yes, after just one trip around JFN I like #9 lots.  Perhaps that is b/c it photographed the best!  We started on the back nine so the 9th was our final hole and the lighting was better (~6:30 PM).

MikeC:  thanks for the reply.  I've never played with MattW, but I don't think there is any way he could handle this course.  Far too long, too firm, and requiring a surgeon's touch around the greens rather than his blacksmith hands.   

I have higher resolution photos (~100 of them) available, including many from the back nine.  I'm sure you can figure out where to find them!

[Matt_Ward]

Joe:


I appreciate your sense of my game since we have NEVER played.

I have played more than my share of courses with high CR's and slopes. My home layout for years was a place you might be vaguely familiar and which sports a legitimate high CR and slope -- does your memory recognize the name Bethpage Black.

Joe, I asked you a simple question and instead of answering it in a forthright manner we get the proverbial tap dance and throw more stuff forward. I simpyl asked if going to JFN was worth more than a 50-mile car ride given the price of fuel. Easy question -- how bout a straightforward reply?

Second question -- given the number of public courses you have played in Pennsy -- where would you place JFN -- above which ones and below which ones. Don't need a yellow pages listing but a bit of perspective helps me understand your preferences.

Mike C:

Given what you said about Bayonne -- how does simple length and over-the-top greens (see your comments on Bayonne) make for an interesting time at JFN?

It seems the people who harp on creativity for courses are now accentuating the difficulty dimension. Guess it must be a major case of Ward-itis affecting their analysis.

[Joe Bausch]

Joe:


I appreciate your sense of my game since we have NEVER played.

I have played more than my share of courses with high CR's and slopes. My home layout for years was a place you might be vaguely familiar and which sports a legitimate high CR and slope -- does your memory recognize the name Bethpage Black.

Joe, I asked you a simple question and instead of answering it in a forthright manner we get the proverbial tap dance and throw more stuff forward. I simpyl asked if going to JFN was worth more than a 50-mile car ride given the price of fuel. Easy question -- how bout a straightforward reply?

Second question -- given the number of public courses you have played in Pennsy -- where would you place JFN -- above which ones and below which ones. Don't need a yellow pages listing but a bit of perspective helps me understand your preferences.

Whoa, Matt, how 'bout trying some decaff tomorrow morning.   

Would I drive 100 miles I did to play it again?  I doubt it, but then again my wife has a place in the Poconos so I can visit it again with a 20 minute drive when vacaying up there.  And I probably will as I am curious to see how quickly it matures.  It looks like the soil was (is?) less than ideal there.

Oh, and Matt, I've read enough of your posts from the archives to have a pretty good idea how you play.

Now, since you are one of the veteran posters here with so much architectural knowledge, what is it specifically that you saw from the photos (besides it being cut from a forest) that made you state this last night:

The place looks like it's a basic straight razor cut from the trees ... the pictures you posted show really little that's compelling to merit more of a ride to go there outside 50 miles.

Do the photos not adequately show enough detail?  If not, follow the link to my 'Philly Golf' page to view all that I took in higher resolution.

What suggested changes would you make to the layout?  Choose any hole(s) and let me know.  I want to learn.

I've learned my lesson to not come out and rate a course in my own head until I've played it at least two or three  times.  But if I was forced to guess where JFN might fall once mature and I've played it a few times, it could go in my top 20% of public courses in PA.

[Matt_Ward]

Joe:

Before recommending decaf how bout you drink a full pot yourself.

Joe, please don't assume anything about my game simply from what you glean alone from posts. My golf course preferences run thegamut of different architects, styles and presentations.

I've always opined that photos alone do not discern the qualities (lack thereof) of any golf course. I simply weighed in from the cheap deep left field seats. My comments on that front are extremely limited and I admit that upfront.

I'll see the course soon and will weigh in with my own comments then.
I don't have recommendations to offer because I have not played the course. I have categorized the fact that my comments were as I described in the preceding paragraph. Got it now.

I simply saw from the pictures a basic cutting of holes from what appears to be dense woods. The fairways, again on nothing more than limited observations, seem to be fairly straightforward razor cut outlines. There may be considerably more to the course and I respect the comments from you and most certainly Mike C who have played the course already.

You say top 20% of Pennsy public courses -- that's a good statement. But, given the fact that Pennsy as a general rule has really low level quality public golf I'll be curious to see where that level actually is.

[Joe Bausch]

I've always opined that photos alone do not discern the qualities (lack thereof) of any golf course. I simply weighed in from the cheap deep left field seats. My comments on that front are extremely limited and I admit that upfront.

I'll see the course soon and will weigh in with my own comments then.
I don't have recommendations to offer because I have not played the course. I have categorized the fact that my comments were as I described in the preceding paragraph. Got it now.

I simply saw from the pictures a basic cutting of holes from what appears to be dense woods. The fairways, again on nothing more than limited observations, seem to be fairly straightforward razor cut outlines. There may be considerably more to the course and I respect the comments from you and most certainly Mike C who have played the course already.

You say top 20% of Pennsy public courses -- that's a good statement. But, given the fact that Pennsy as a general rule has really low level quality public golf I'll be curious to see where that level actually is.

Thanks for the info Matt.  It is easy to be a Monday morning quarterback when pics are posted about a course which hasn't been played.

And I'm so glad people like Kelly Moran are around to build up the quality of PA golf courses.  I haven't read this general rule you are talking about, but I'm glad you've educated me.

Some might be curious to see the routing of JFN.  Strangely enough their scorecard does not label the holes on the diagram, so I went ahead and did so:

[Mike_Cirba]

Matt,

I'm just kiddin' with you after our Bayonne discussions.   I couldn't resist the urge.   

I'll try to give a better review of JFN in the next few days.

[Matt_Ward]

Be curious to hear comments from those who have played JFN and how it fares against other broader Pocono layouts such as Shawnee, Great Bear (I know it's private now) and a host of others.

For those who have played Wilkes Baare Muni -- how does JFN compare / contrast ?

As an FYI -- I see Morgan Hill and Lederach as two of the best Pennsy public layouts I have played from the northeast sector of the Keystone State.

Is JFN at that high a level? If so -- then it's worth the 100+ mile trek for me to visit.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I played JFN today and was duly impressed. The course was in excellent condition and has survived the summer heat,humidity and stress just fine. The course has matured nicely since Joe's pics were taken 2 years ago. The greens were a little soft but that's understandable given the stress of this summer.

It's tough to miss a fairway here even for me. The greens were challenging- mostly tiered or sloped- but totally unlike Lederach's for example. The site is less severe than Morgan Hill but there are some good uphill holes, notably 9 & 18-both par5s.

I don't disagree with Golf Mag's recent rankings placing JFN in the Top 10 of PA publics:


1. Bedford Springs Old Course, Bedford
2. Nemacolin Woodlands (Mystic Rock), Farmington
3. Glen Mills, Glen Mills
4. Olde Stonewall, Ellwood City
5. Hershey (West), Hershey
6. Tom's Run at Chestnut Ridge, Blairsville
7. Wyncote, Oxford
8. Jack Frost National, Blakeslee
9. Hershey Links, Hummelstown
10. Penn National (Founders), Fayetteville
11. Center Valley, Center Valley
12. Lederach, Harleysville
13. Pilgrim's Oak, Peach Bottom
14. Hershey (East), Hershey
15. Woodloch, Hawley

I would place Center Valley lower than Lederach.

It's worth a return visit even though it's a 1.5 hour drive from my house. The senior rate is $40 weekdays.

[rboyce]

Wow, drove right by that place a week ago on my way to a family meet up. Will try to check it out next time. Thanks for the nice pictorial, it looks very nice to my eye. The Poconos were at least 10 degrees cooler and much less humid than the DC area when I was there.

Maybe the Pocono will have a renaissance as a closer-to-home vacation spot for all the NYers and Philly types. I've also driven passed Shawnee during another family meet-up and was fascinated by the recent thread on the course.

[Richard Hetzel]

I had Jack Frost on my radar to stop and play on my way to NJ last weekend. It reminds me of several AH courses I have played in the past. I am glad I picked Wanango CC instead.

I am sure I will play it on one of my trips, but there are others that appear to be more compelling.

PS:  Someone plant something and hide that road behind that par 3!

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Here is Joe Logan's review:

http://www.myphillygolf.com/clubreview.asp?cid=688

I think I'll do a Stay& Play to see the forthcoming fall foliage.

[Ronald Montesano]

Just played JFN today. What an enjoyable course. It is walkable, with a few X-C hikes.

This is my second Terry Legree course, after Sanctuary Ridge. I would not mind playing more of his. I found JFN to be really playable from the whites (middle of 5 decks) and would enjoy a second tour, from the 2nd or 1st decks back.

The greens that he built here are off the charts enjoyable, intricate, subtle in spots, dramatic in others. I would tell anyone in the vicinity to put JFN on their radar.