Bob Baldock?

[Tim Leahy]

Designed around 50 courses in California in the early 1960's that I know of, but none are outstanding or memorable. About half are country clubs. Was this a dead period for golf course design or was he just inexpensive or a great marketer? Does anyone know if he had influences of any great designers, maybe I am just missing it.

[Kalen Braley]

Based on what attributed to him at http://www.worldgolf.com/golf-architects/bob-e-baldock.html I've played a handful of his courses.  While I would agree none of them were outstanding, a few of them were certainly interesting to play.

It also says he did the Shore course at MPCC.  Did he create what was there before Stranz did the re-do?

Kalen

[Adam Clayman]

I wouldn't hold this list in the highest light regarding completeness and/or accuracy.

Perhaps it's only his Ca. CV.

http://www.fourhillscc.com/

Plus, somewhere deep in my synapses, Wy. sticks out as another place with more BB.

[David Stamm]

Based on what attributed to him at http://www.worldgolf.com/golf-architects/bob-e-baldock.html I've played a handful of his courses.  While I would agree none of them were outstanding, a few of them were certainly interesting to play.

It also says he did the Shore course at MPCC.  Did he create what was there before Stranz did the re-do?

Kalen

Kalen, it is my understanding that in the late fifties, Morse sold the land (422 acres) to the club memebrship for a price of $1 with the understanding the members would build a second course. The sale was completed in 1959 and Baldock was hired. He completed the course in '61. Originally, MacKenzie had been asked in '27 by Morse to build the Shore while doing Cypress. Supposedly a routing had been drawn up, but the Depression stopped it from going any further. Baldock was on Billy Bell's construction team and that's how he got his start. If memory serves, Jack Neville was a member at MPCC at this time. I wonder if there is any evidence if he was at least approached about doing the work. He did afterall do the original layout at Pebble and the back nine at Pacific Grove as well as his input at Bel Air.

[Andy Troeger]

Played a Bob Baldock course yesterday, Four Hills in Albuquerque (see link in Adam's post above). Its probably the best private club in Albuquerque; granted there isn't much else to choose from. I don't think I'd put it top ten in New Mexico, although its pretty close in quality to Santa Ana and Taos for the last few spots in my opinion.

He also designed one of the municipal courses in town, Los Altos, which is pretty bad.

[Jed Peters]

I played one of his courses today, Auburn C.C.

It sucked.

[Tom Yost]

Cornish & Whitten lists two courses in Arizona by Baldock.    I've played neither of them.

Continental CC (AKA Elden Hills); 1960; Flagstaff
Gen Blanchard GC; 1961; Davis-Monthan AFB, Tucson

Also C&W indicates that a son, Robert L. Baldock, followed in dad's footsteps as a GCA.

[Bob_Huntley]

Based on what attributed to him at http://www.worldgolf.com/golf-architects/bob-e-baldock.html I've played a handful of his courses.  While I would agree none of them were outstanding, a few of them were certainly interesting to play.

It also says he did the Shore course at MPCC.  Did he create what was there before Stranz did the re-do?

Kalen

Kalen, it is my understanding that in the late fifties, Morse sold the land (422 acres) to the club memebrship for a price of $1 with the understanding the members would build a second course. The sale was completed in 1959 and Baldock was hired. He completed the course in '61. Originally, MacKenzie had been asked in '27 by Morse to build the Shore while doing Cypress. Supposedly a routing had been drawn up, but the Depression stopped it from going any further. Baldock was on Billy Bell's construction team and that's how he got his start. If memory serves, Jack Neville was a member at MPCC at this time. I wonder if there is any evidence if he was at least approached about doing the work. He did afterall do the original layout at Pebble and the back nine at Pacific Grove as well as his input at Bel Air.

Jack Neville and Lawson Little were members of MPCC at that time and I have heard neither was consulted on the project. The original Shore course was a delightful place to play with some wickedly quick greens. It was built for $150,000.00 and opened for play (I think) in 1961. The course drained poorly and on some holes in the winter,  one could lose a shoe in drenched sod.

The enjoyment it offered for the price paid, was enormous.


Bob

[Kalen Braley]

David and Bob,

Thanks for that...sounds like Bob did a pretty decent job with the original course.  I guess the need for drainage eventually prompted the re-design?

[Adam Clayman]

Jed Peters, Please do us all the favor of never repeating that in-depth analysis.

Andy, Baxter Spann did a recent re-do on some or most of the greens at Four Hills. The added widow peaks on the top of some of the green side bunkers were a great addition incorporating both increased options of playability and surface drainage away from the green's surface and bunker.
There was a short par four on the front (#7?) with OB left near the green. The committee chair asked Baxter how they could fix the problem. They even asked me my opinion. I basically said due to the length of the hole the penalty was proportional since most would be hitting short irons in. No problem. If you remember the hole, was there still a sharp drop off to the left side of that green, or did they build mounding?
One of the aspects that made me want to learn more bout ol' Bob was how wide he designed one of the best holes at Four Hills,(#14? Dog Right tight w/a fence right) with bunkers that are now 20-30 yards into the trees.

[Jed Peters]

Jed Peters, Please do us all the favor of never repeating that in-depth analysis.

Adam Clayman, I thought I was being funny.

Ever "have" to play somewhere that's just devoid of any architectural thought, meaning, etc? Ever "have" to play somewhere that you have to literally go slow driving out to your ball because the fairways are so jacked up from years of neglect that they're so bumpy they could literally throw you out of the cart? Ever "have" to play somewhere that is in SUCH bad shape that the local 9 hole muni down the street that's 9 bucks is in better shape?

You come home after doing that, and I guarantee you'll feel the same way!

For what it's worth, the reason I "have" to play here is we have an NCGA team match this saturday there....super frustrating because all the other courses in our section suck ass, and we always get screwed on the away matches!

[Adam Clayman]

Honestly, No. I've never seen any course that sounds as bad as that.  That's not the NCGA events I know. GL.

[Andy Troeger]

Jed Peters, Please do us all the favor of never repeating that in-depth analysis.

Andy, Baxter Spann did a recent re-do on some or most of the greens at Four Hills. The added widow peaks on the top of some of the green side bunkers were a great addition incorporating both increased options of playability and surface drainage away from the green's surface and bunker.
There was a short par four on the front (#7?) with OB left near the green. The committee chair asked Baxter how they could fix the problem. They even asked me my opinion. I basically said due to the length of the hole the penalty was proportional since most would be hitting short irons in. No problem. If you remember the hole, was there still a sharp drop off to the left side of that green, or did they build mounding?
One of the aspects that made me want to learn more bout ol' Bob was how wide he designed one of the best holes at Four Hills,(#14? Dog Right tight w/a fence right) with bunkers that are now 20-30 yards into the trees.

Adam,
I figured there had been some work done; the tiny greens do make the course. I liked how they tended to go with the tilt of the property with ones like #11 and 14 and a couple others that sloped away from the player.

I did not notice OB just left of any of the par fours on the front. There is OB left on #5 and #7, but it didn't seem that close on either hole. I like the concept of #14, but that water thing you have to carry (not sure what exactly even to call it) is so ugly and built up that it does diminsh things a bit. I like the idea of the blind tee shot though. I'm not entirely sure that's the hole you meant, but I don't recall a bunker in the trees or a hole with a fence to the right (#12 and 14 are dogleg rights with the fence on the left?).

[Jon Spaulding]

Turlock has some decent holes and miniscule greens. Worth a look if you're in the area.

Skywest is terrible.

Corral de Tierra never gets much press but have heard decent reviews of it over the years. It was redone a few years back but there always seems something better to do when one is in the area.

[Tim Leahy]

I still would like to know how he got so much work, when his product was so average.

[David Stamm]

I still would like to know how he got so much work, when his product was so average.

When you find the answer, let us know.

[Ronald Montesano]

Must be the William Harries of his day.  Harries designed a bunch in western New York and, despite being a member of Cherry Hill in Ontario, a wonderful Travis course, learned nothing about design features.  He was given three good pieces of land and turned out Brookfield, Sheridan Park and Byrncliff.  Other than that, fair to middling.

[Jeff Doerr]

I still would like to know how he got so much work, when his product was so average.

When you find the answer, let us know.

I'll second that!

I've probably played at least a dozen Baldock's as I grew up in Fresno. If a GCA wanted to go the redesign route to make money, a good starting list in CA would be the Baldock list.

[Andy Troeger]

What percentage of his courses were on above average pieces of land? If you don't have much to work with (and potentially not much of a budget) that could explain some things.

Obviously MPCC was a good site, more talking about the rest...

[Tom Jefferson]

When I started working in golf course management in 1982, my first mentor was John Engen, who had built a number of courses for Bob Baldock in the early 1960s.

Among those was MPCC Shore, Butte Creek Country Club in Chico, Ca., and Peach Tree Country Club in Marysville. 

I have always considered those three to be Baldock's best contributions to GCA.

I think Engen was most proud of the construction effort at the Shore course.

Upon completion of Butte Creek, which sits on flat land but has a number of good golf holes routed over gravelly flood courses of nearby Butte Creek, Engen stayed on as superintendent.

I always enjoyed the walk around Peach Tree, which had the great advantage of excellent drainage, as it was built on the deep sand of an ancient river course of the Yuba River.  Those sandy wastes had alot of movement and elevation changes of 10-20 ft.

Regarding how he got the work he did, Engen said once that Baldock was a..'great salesman'.

That's all I got!

Tom

[Joel_Stewart]

Regarding how he got the work he did, Engen said once that Baldock was a..'great salesman'.

I know someone who is a professional comedian.  He told me once show business is 80% business and 20% show.  I find that true with architects as well, at least the third and fourth tier architects.  I know I sound like a broken record but we have an architect doing work at our club and he couldn't be more clueless with no thought on history or shot values.  He lacks all vision, but the superintendent and general manager love the guy, mainly because he is a yes man to both of them.

[Scott Stambaugh]

About eight years ago, I played a Baldock course in the eastern Sierra of California called either Mount Whitney or Lone Pine (I think people called it by both.) 

Nine holes, middle of nowhere and windy as hell.  The greens were extremely fast and sloped much like some of the old greens on MPCC Shore.

A cool added touch to a throwback experience- some of the locals were still driving three-wheeled golf carts (right up next to the greens, of course.)

Scott

[Forrest Richardson]

He was, as I understand, a retired Military man. His entrance into Military bases was unequaled by any other golf designer. Most all of his designs are military. He was an accomplished graphic designer. His plans were lavish and had a certain flair. I have seen a few in my travels. I have not played any of his designs, but have been on several. They look "fine"...and that is about all I can say. Much like Wm. F. Bell, Baldock worked in the 1960s and 1970s when there was a pressing motive to finish the job, get out and get on to the next assignment.

I am sorry to be so direct.

[David Stamm]

About eight years ago, I played a Baldock course in the eastern Sierra of California called either Mount Whitney or Lone Pine (I think people called it by both.) 

Nine holes, middle of nowhere and windy as hell.  The greens were extremely fast and sloped much like some of the old greens on MPCC Shore.

A cool added touch to a throwback experience- some of the locals were still driving three-wheeled golf carts (right up next to the greens, of course.)

Scott

Scott, I've seen this course and I believe it is called Mt Whitney. It is in the middle of nowhere, but it's a beautiful area.

[Tom Jefferson]

Forrest;
No need to apologize.  The essence of your statement sums up the second point Engen had about Bob Baldock; that he was interested in "getting the money".
I didn't include that statement as I don't like to 'talk down' about anyone.

Your statement merely confirms what seemed to be acceptable business in that era..........that you got the job done, got paid, and got on to the next site.

That merely corroborates Engen's stories of he and his family and their life on the road of building Baldock courses.

Spring Creek in Ripon, and a course in Ontario Oregon were mentioned as well, I believe, in talking of Baldock's work.

Tom