[Sean_A]

I don't understand how a par 3 can be a half par hole down to 2.5.  I especially don't agree that #10 is one of these so called types.  Its a blind uphill hole with absolutely the smallest green I have ever seen.  Missing on the left makes getting a par very difficult even on greens rolling 6ish. 

This is the second time somebody had said that a par 3 is half par down to 2.5 as I think someone said Tobacco Road's 17th was one.  I really can't understand the logic at all. 

Ciao

[Rich Goodale]

I fully agree Sean.  If there is such a thing as a "par" 2 1/.2 it would be a 30-50 yard hole with some sort of punchbowl effect and serious touble if you missed the green, and I don't think there is an archie out there with the cojones to build such a hole.

Rich

[James Bennett]

Sean, Richard

oh wise ones.  How often do you make a 3 on a supposed half-par 4?  Or a 4 on a supposed half-par 5.  Sean might because he hits the ball so far.  And, miss the green on #10 left (IIRC Sean, that is what you did), yes par is difficult.  And, a 12 foot putt on #10 green still breaks a lot, even at a green speed of 6.  So, a 2 is difficult.  But what do you call a 120 yard hole to a punchbowl green other than a par 2.5.

I have referred to Plainfield's #11 as the shortest par 5 I have ever played, so I understand hyperbole.

James Boon, I am looking forward to the pics of 10 and 11.

James B

[Rich Goodale]

James

I'd hardly call 10 a "punchbowl" green, particularly with the sharp left-right slope.  That being said, I saw Doak and McEvoy hit it stiff when the pin was mid-left on the slide of the slope, but those guys are studs....

Rich

[Bill_McBride]

I stick by my assertion that #11 is the only hole where you'll walk away disappointed about making a par.  IIRC Darren Kilfarra hit his tee shot to about 15' while we were putting!

[Rich Goodale]

Bill

Your assertion sticks only if you are a short hitter and/or are inspirationally challenged.  I am testimony to the fact that it is VERY easy to shoot big numbers on that hole.

Rich

[James Boon]

Tom, I think you are right in that one of the strong points of Painswick is the variety of character even though a lot of the holes are only short par 3s or 4s. Only five and ten are really similar in character in my mind. I also agree that 7 is probably the weak hole on the first nine and that an asterisk is about the only rating you could have given it! Or perhaps a  would have done the trick?

Tony, I hadn’t realised the similarity of the eighth to the third at RCP (Deal) but it is a blind approach to a short par 5. Though I seem to recall the green being more of a punchbowl were as if you go long or left on the eighth there are no slopes to help out as there are at Deal.

Sean, I imagine after a really wet or dry period the condition could be poor, but with the combination of rain and sun we have had this summer the course is in great condition. I have to admit I have only ever played the course when there has been no one else around but I have often wondered about the shared fairway on eight and nine and wondered how safe it is on a busy day?

Okay, the second nine…

Hole 10 “Postern”
120 yard par 3 and like the fifth its blind and uphill, played over the ancient ramparts to a punchbowl green within the old fort. Aim at the marker post and fingers crossed…


I have to admit that I have only known of Painswick for a year or so having been introduced to it by Robin Hiseman’s essay with Paul Daley’s Golf Architecture Volume 3. As I walked from the tee on the tenth I happened to look back to the ninth green and instantly recognized the view. It was the opening photo to this essay and probably the picture that influenced me to want to try this place…


Over the top of the forts ramparts and you get to see how small the green is


Looking back from behind the green


Hole 11 “Pleasaunce”
230 to 240 odd yards and its played as a par 4… Now bearing in mind the various comments about how this should be a 3.5 I have never actually managed a score on this hole having always lost my ball when its disappeared over the ridge that makes this hole blind! So Bill I am more than disappointed but I will have my revenge one day! I think that my poor play means that my photos do not do this wonderful little hole justice?

This is the drive with the sixth hole playing across from right to left


This is what you would see if you hit just short of the green


Looking back from behind the green. You can see the mounds to the left (right from the tee) that are covered in very long rough and I suspect my ball may be in there somewhere…


From back left looking back down the hole, showing the hollows just off the green


Hole 12 “Barbican”
250 yard par 3 played straight downhill. The fourth crosses from right to left as does a pathway about 40 yards short of the green


View of the green from the path. Behind the green is another quarry


Looking back up hill, with the tee at the top near the trees on the left


Looking from back left at the green and the cut and fill nature of the green is clear


Between the green and the next tee is an information board giving details of the history of Painswick Beacon, its history, wildlife, current use and future. Most of this can also be found on the clubs website…
http://www.painswickgolf.com/history.php


I’ll post more soon!

Cheers,

James

[Bill_McBride]

Bill

Your assertion sticks only if you are a short hitter and/or are inspirationally challenged.  I am testimony to the fact that it is VERY easy to shoot big numbers on that hole.

Rich

Why would a short hitter feel that #11 is a birdie hole?  The hole is 240 yards long or thereabouts, so needs a strong 3 wood shot or, in case, driver.

Or did you perhaps mean "straight" rather than "short?"   

[Bill_McBride]

James

I'd hardly call 10 a "punchbowl" green, particularly with the sharp left-right slope.  That being said, I saw Doak and McEvoy hit it stiff when the pin was mid-left on the slide of the slope, but those guys are studs....

Rich

Look at the photo on this very thread.  It's the very definition of a punchbowl.

Have you been AT the punchbowl today? 

[James Boon]

Hole 13 “Trator's Gate”
380 yard par 4, sharing its fairway with the third. The teeing area is also shared with the fourth and the drive is over a public road, with the third green just off to the right and out of bounds to the left for any big hitters


The “Cotswolds Way” runs through virtually the full length of the course


The public road. Thats the back tee for the fourth just over it, coming back the other way


The approach is uphill with the land falling away to the right. The third tee is on the hill to the left


View of the green showing it falling to the right and its various undulations


View from behind the green with the hillfort we have just played in and out of in the distance


Hole 14 “Gallows”
Just over 300 yards long this par 4 and it’s quite an exhilarating tee shot. It looks a frightening shot but unless you are a short hitter or it’s a strong wind in your face, the carry should be achievable. Otherwise the option of playing out to the right with a shorter carry is available.


A walk through the quarry


Looking back towards the tee from the landing area


Though this is one of my favourite tee shots on the course, the fairway is shared with the second and is wide open. Also, the green isn’t as heavily protected as some of the others so it should be a relatively straightforward par 4


View back from behind the green


Hole 15 “Paradise”
150 to 160 yard par 3, downhill into a clearing amongst the trees. Adrain's comment regarding the trees growing and altering the appearance may well be most true here. I had to walk well forward of the tee just to get a glimpse of the flag as the trees and shrubs, short and right, block the view


After walking down the path to the green this is the view from just short of the green


And the view from behind, with the tee up in the distance, above the path that can be seen


I'll post the last 3 holes tomorrow.

Cheers

James

[Adrian_Stiff]

James- That 15th green was rebuilt in 1992, I helped with the contractor (for no fee, as it was Painswick) we just replicated pretty much what was there before, it was a real mess underneath, a lot of trees where taken out to the right of the green, it was struggling for both light and air movement, looks as if some need a trim on the left to regain the visibility, back in the 70s this was an outstanding drop hole par 3. Also at 14 the drive over the quarry was through a gap in Scotch Pine, that whole quarry was full of pine, it influenced the 2nd hole quite a bit too, the tee for the 2nd hole back then was to the right of the 1st green, on the edge of the quarry (very much in range off the 1st tee). I vaguely remember the green site for the old 4th hole par 3 (140 yards) that was a very pretty hole, shame its gone but it was very near the car park and ice cream van area, the replacement hole was a new 18th hole (c1971) which was replaced mid 80s by the present one. The old 18th had two greenside bunkers which kinda ruined it bunkerless charm I suppose, the green is still there, I think its now the practice green. All in all Painswick has moved with the times and the minor changes are for the better. I never remember this course boggy as Sean mentions, though I can remember it suffering from wormcasts in the winter. Lovely pictures James, any chance you could zip me up a set and mail me? (pretty please) Painswick at its very very best!

[Tom_Doak]

Adrian:

Thanks for that background on the course.  It seemed to me when we played that #18 was out of character with the rest, and now I know why.


James did not mention when he said that the tee for #13 "is shared with the fourth" that players start from dueling positions at each end of the tee .. in his first picture, those are the markers for #4 in front of you, and they are teeing off past you!  Only in England would this work well.

[Rich Goodale]

Great stuff, James.  They say a picture is worth 1000 words, and as those of us Painswick afficionados have spent many more words than that trying to convince Sean A. that his blind antipathy to the place was misguided, where as you have brought him over from the dark side with just some pretty photographs, what they say is true.

Tom D

I can't believe you didn't take a look at the old 18th when we were there.  The smallest wild green I have ever seen.  That would have been a finishing hole wrothy of Painswick.

Bill McB

The 10th is too small to be a punchbowl--maybe a punch demi-tasse.  Regardless, as it is pinnable even on the severely sloping left side, it doesn't really play as a pucnhbowl (not that one would know, of course, given the blindness....).  As for the 11th, one of the best players I have ever played with couldn't hit the green in two, and I don't think I ever did in my 6 tries.  The way to play it is a 200 yard bunt off the tee and a skull onto the green--hence my reference to short hitters.

Cheers to all

Rich

[Sean_A]

Great stuff, James.  They say a picture is worth 1000 words, and as those of us Painswick afficionados have spent many more words than that trying to convince Sean A. that his blind antipathy to the place was misguided, where as you have brought him over from the dark side with just some pretty photographs, what they say is true.

Tom D

I can't believe you didn't take a look at the old 18th when we were there.  The smallest wild green I have ever seen.  That would have been a finishing hole wrothy of Painswick.

Bill McB

The 10th is too small to be a punchbowl--maybe a punch demi-tasse.  Regardless, as it is pinnable even on the severely sloping left side, it doesn't really play as a pucnhbowl (not that one would know, of course, given the blindness....).  As for the 11th, one of the best players I have ever played with couldn't hit the green in two, and I don't think I ever did in my 6 tries.  The way to play it is a 200 yard bunt off the tee and a skull onto the green--hence my reference to short hitters.

Cheers to all

Rich

Oh Rihc, the Nicker of Guides.  I always liked the stuff in the ground at Painswick.  Its just I think the conditioning of the place seriously drags down its charm - especially in the winter.  You come on down for a go on the temporary tees this winter - and bring yer wellies - they won't be for sheep shaggin!

Ciao

[Paul_Turner]

Adrian

I remember reading that the old 4th was a short par 3 across the road, in amongst the quarry work to the right of the 12th "fairway".

The 15th is getting way overgrown.



I don't get the criticsm of the 7th, it's certainly much better than the modern 18th.  (The ramp at the back of the 7th green is a favourite for mountain bikers to jump at full pelt.)

I think the 10th is definitely a punchbowl.  The member I played with on the first day of the BUDA had 9 holes in one at Painswick and I think 3 of them were on the 10th!

[Adrian_Stiff]

Paul- In the winter you can still see the old 4th, yes it ran pretty much in line with the current 4th/ right of 12th, just a bit lower down, next time I am there I'll get a digital pic. My only one is a conventional one. The green is/was very small with a huge rise in front.
I agree the 10th green is pretty much punchbowl... just the right side fails to gather

[Sean_A]

Paul- In the winter you can still see the old 4th, yes it ran pretty much in line with the current 4th/ right of 12th, just a bit lower down, next time I am there I'll get a digital pic. My only one is a conventional one. The green is/was very small with a huge rise in front.
I agree the 10th green is pretty much punchbowl... just the right side fails to gather

I wonder what folks would think after purchasing a punchbowl which didn't hold liquid on one side.  The slope from the left is so severe the punchbowl effect is lost.  I think of the green as on a hard slope with some buildup to the bottom right to contain balls - or else one could play this hole all day.  The photo is very deceiving.

Paul

I don't understand why you think 7 is better than 18 - please explain.

Ciao

[Robin_Hiseman]

James

A great thread and I'm very glad my little piece for GAV 3 prompted you to search this place out.  These are the best photos I've ever seen of the place.

Two of the photos alongside my article illustrate a couple of Adrian's points nicely, as they show the pine trees screening off the tee shot on 14 and also 15 from behind the green before the new growth has crowded the view from the tee.  No doubt someone from the club will pick up this thread and with a bit of luck the chainsaw will be out this winter!

As someone who has already written several thousand words on this place, I'll endorse Richard's view that good pictures tell a whole lot more and look forward to the rest of your shots.

Sean, count me in if you want a trip down before the end of summer!

[Paul_Turner]

Sean

18 is just an ordinary par 3 that you could find on any course.  It doesn't have the Painswick character.

7 has the interesting vagaries of the quarry and the path; OB and trouble threatens close to the left of the green and it's tempting to bail out to the right into the quarry mounds.

[James Bennett]

18 is just an ordinary par 3 that you could find on any course.  It doesn't have the Painswick character.

7 has the interesting vagaries of the quarry and the path; OB and trouble threatens close to the left of the green and it's tempting to bail out to the right into the quarry mounds.

What he said.

#18 is also the flattest hole on the course.

James B

[James Boon]

Now for the last 3 holes, 2 crackers and an unfortunate anti climax…

Hole 16 “Southgate”A 300 yard downhill par 4, played over plenty of rough ground and also another public road.


If a player chooses to play safe and lay up short of the road, there is a small landing are, frames by 2 trees atop large mounds, seen here from the left side of the fairway


This is one hole where it defiantly seems easier to try and get close to the green as there is much more room past the road


This photo from back right of the green shows how the green is cut into the slope


Hole 17 “Graveyard”
Typical of Painswick’s character in that the yellow tees are 1 yard longer than the whites which at 364 and 363 respectively. The steps are to give a view of the fairway over the hill


A blind drive and probably one of the craziest you will ever come across…


Because as you reach the top of the hill the full extent of the hole becomes clear! Firstly, the sixteenth has crossed us from left to right, secondly a stone wall forming out of bounds on the left (beyond these is the graveyard), thirdly the hole doglegs to the left slightly around the graveyard and lastly not just one public road, but two that cross just on a good length! I wonder how many cars get hit on this course?


A drive up the left flirting with the OOB and the cross roads leaves this view of the green


A drive further right, onto what the clubs website refers to as the cricket pitch (?) leaves a much better approach


Looking back at the landing area and its many hazards


Approach to the green, with the green this time cut into a left to right slope


Looking back from behind the green


I’ll be interested to hear what everyone makes of this hole. Part of me really loves it, but the problems are obvious and in today’s litigious society it surely won’t be long before something changes or perhaps as Robin writes in GA vol 3, the whole course gets closed which would be a great shame!

Hole 18 “Homeward Bound”
120 to 140 yard par 3 to finish and as Adrian has pointed out, this is a relatively new hole, and to me just doesn’t sit well with the rest. A large tree to the left is the main hazard


Just short of the green showing it again cut into a left to right slope


Looking back towards the tee


So the second nine is a little more conventional in its ordering and balance, though the par goes as follows: 3, 4, 3, 4, 4, 3, 4, 4, 3. This all adds up to 2,271 yards par 32 and a total of 4,831 yards par 67.

I’m with Tom in that the only indifferent hole on the first nine was the seventh, as its never struck me as anything special. However, I look at the photos I took, it doesn’t look too bad so maybe it just suffers as some of the others in those first nine holes are so special, and I need to give it another chance? The second nine though does suffer a little more perhaps as for me the tenth is just another version of the fifth and the eighteenth is a week hole with very little of the character of the 17 holes before it. I think if the tenth was the only blind short par 3 to a small green then it would be a great little hole, its just that with such variety on the course I’m not sure there is room for 2 holes so similar? And the last, well what can I say, maybe if they have another go at a change it will be third time lucky?

Anyway, glad you guys have enjoyed the photos so far and thanks for your kind words! Hopefully these last few finish it off nicely?  

Tom is right. I should have pointed out on the photos of the tees for the fourth and thirteenth that you do find yourself in a face off, almost playing chicken with any golfers coming the other way! As I mentioned with the eighth and ninth, I’ve never seen many other golfers on the course but this was one of the places I have and it was certainly disconcerting at first!

Adrian, thanks for a bit of history on the developments of the course. Sounds like the old fourth par 3 was a great little hole. I’ll have to try and have a look for it next time I’m there. Yes, fifteen really does need some trees cutting back and as Robin says, hopefully the chainsaw will be out this winter! Lastly, I’ll message you about sending you copies of the pictures.

Cheers

James

[James Boon]

Now the USPGA is done with (Nice one Padraig!) I feel I need to ask one question regarding this thread?

Why no comments on the 17th hole? Blind, with a crossing hole and a public cross roads in the driving area? Someone must have an interesting story related to this hole or a major issue with it, perhaps even a suggestion as to how the hole could be changed to stop the Health & safety people closing it down?

Cheers

James

[Bill_McBride]

Now the USPGA is done with (Nice one Padraig!) I feel I need to ask one question regarding this thread?

Why no comments on the 17th hole? Blind, with a crossing hole and a public cross roads in the driving area? Someone must have an interesting story related to this hole or a major issue with it, perhaps even a suggestion as to how the hole could be changed to stop the Health & safety people closing it down?

Cheers

James

James, the crossing traffic wasn't really a big deal, everybody on the tee watched like a hawk for any cars approaching.  It did make for a bit of delay when a delivery truck and a caravan passed by!   I thought 17 was a bit of a nondescript hole not in the mold of the other par 4s.  The green did have a nice contour in though, if I recall correctly.  The cemetery lurking on the left for hooked tee shots was a nice touch!

[Charlie Goerges]

Just a bump of probably the finest photo tour I've ever seen.

[Michael Taylor]

Bump.

I think this wonderful tour deserves a 3rd looking at! Thanks for the tour James.

What a crazy little course, I hope to play it one day. 

Pup

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