Soil and its affect on architecture

[Willie_Dow]

A recent discussion with a great analyst of soil,and its contribution to the type of grasses best suited for that environment, made me wonder about the design characteristics for rough, bunker surrounds, fairway widths, first cuts, second cuts, etc. with the inherited ground available.

[TEPaul]

One thing I do know is that soil conditions are all important to that essential condition of firm and fast "through the green" playability! Hard compacted soil conditions that create "hydrophobia" is a disaster for acheiving and maintaining firm and fast playing conditions. The soil has to perk relatively well for the water to penetrate and the roots to penetrate seeking that water. Soil that promotes good water and root infiltration is essential. Without it you're probably into scorched earth or soft spongy playing conditions.

[Oscar Brown]

Roots don't "seek" water, rather they grow in the presence of water.

[Willie_Dow]

In other words, Oscar, if the sod cannot break through its barrier between its soil, and find moisture in the soil below, it will not have roots penetrating that subsoil?

[Oscar Brown]

True Willie,
Try this at home:
Lay some sod on dry ground, don't add any water. Check in a few days for rooting. Report back

[Robert "Cliff" Stanfield]

Oscar great point...I have actually seen sod pieces thrown into a corner adn wilt to a brownish color(bermuda)....only to be revived after watering.  Note the sod was tossed aside and not water for several weeks.

? how many have had sod layed dormant and acheived success....or what problems have arisen....what should a designer look for when giving the ok for sod to be layed dormant?  Worked on a project that we layed dormant and had 20% loss....Just wondering what the supers out there think.  I know the % for loss is increased....what do the supers think when the decision is made to go with dormant?

[Mike_Young]

IMHO soil and environment have more to do with the "great courses" than any other single element.  While there are exceptions, that is why most of the "top" are in sandy soils with cool season grasses.  It is difficult if not impossible to duplicate those conditions in red clay or some other types of soil.  In the south we constantly compete with a developer seeing pictures from a northern project of another architect and saying "I like his style" when he has no idea that it cannot be built in the south.  (just using south as an example)  Just look at how different Ross was in the south than in the north.  And the soil dictates the grassing and on and on.
Mike

[Willie_Dow]

Thanks, RC
Do you think that the dormant would have been better than the replacement soil?

[Robert "Cliff" Stanfield]

Willie....I dont know if I understand you ? replacement soil vs. dormant sod.  The dormant sod was placed down because of season change and lack of being able to grow.  Replacemnt soil whatever that means would I guess be very expensive and 2 not applicable to my issue.

As for soil...sure soil is a major factor....but with good ammendments and maintence you can grow just about anything on any soil.  Sure I am no expert and quality of turf will always be the argument against my statement but to be honest....you can have the best soil but it all comes down to the maintenance and effort of the people behind the product.

[Willie_Dow]

Yes, Mike:
And I wonder why sandy soil can not be combined with clay soil?

[Mike_Young]

RC,
IMHO you cannot grow anything on any soil unless you are in the right climate.  That is why we are stuck with Bermuda fairways in the south.  While as you say it is possible it is just not practical.  
Mike

[Mike_Young]

Willie,
I am speaking of pure sand that is in many cases several hundred feet deep.

[Willie_Dow]

RC
I agree with you, but what is the best course here? Keep the course within the environment, or introduce something outside its natural way of growing?
Willie

[Joe Hancock]

Sand vs. loam vs. clay,

Grass roots in sand is measured in feet, while in clay is measured in inches, usually very few inches. Different species respond in different ways. Even trees of the same species will look different based on what they're rooted in. I think for most of us here, we all are thinking fescues and bentgrasses on sand gives us the look and playability we prefer. The "look" just isn't possible on every soil in every climate. Does that affect architecture? I sure hope so. Bermuda grass is such an aggresive lateral grower that the nasty, gnarly bunkers don't work with it, unless armies of workers are on them every day. So maybe there is room for our minds to accept the groomed look based on course location and soils?

Just my opinion,

Joe

[Don_Mahaffey]

Willie,
Sandy soil is combined with clay all the time, they call it concrete. Seriously, to amend a clay soil to perk like sand would require amending the soil to, at the very least, 60% sand and that would only increase the perk rate by a small amount. Clay particles are very, very small in relation to sand. The clay clogs up the pores in between the sand and the soil just acts like clay, only a little better. Decent sands are less then 10% clay and silt. Amending a clay soil is simply not practical, lots of drainage is the better answer.

[Mike_Young]

IMHO you should always design the course within the natural environment .  When you go against this you will sooner or later have problems.  Golf originated in a cool season environment and then evolved into other areas.  
I grew up in GA. and was fortunate to see Northern courses as a youngster and knew there was a difference yet it was a few years before I understood why.  And that is what I think is the case with many when it comes to judging architecture and architects.  You cannot build the product that is admired by so many outside of a specific environment.  When someone tries it is very expensive and the worry of whther they will tire of the expense is always there....If I had to do it again I would recommend to anyone wanting to become an architect that he work in a cool season environment to establish himself.  Nature helps you much more with your end results.
Mike

[Willie_Dow]

Yes Mike!
But my garu says the best fescu is grown in the sand!  Not clay!  And add some salt!
Willie

[Robert "Cliff" Stanfield]

I was just making a point...not advocating the expensive applications or chemicals.

But you can achieve fast an firm with proper maintenance in the south....even though it occurs mainly because of the drought this time of the year.

Mike-the point is that yes its not applicable most of the time.  But with proper maintenance budgets that often get overlooked and undercut each year....a good turf can be established with the right equipment and salary for extra man hours.

Willie-what do you mean sand and clay dont mix?  I know you did not word it that way but a sandy clay loam can be a great medium to grow in right or wrong?  Just want your opinion on that.

Mike as for being stuck with bermuda fwys...hmmm...how about zoysia? Maybe not to far south....once again probably not feasible...or just limited to north AL or GA.

Willie-its always the benefit of the arch and club to behave within the limits of the natural land and constraints of the site survey.

[Mike_Young]

Willie,
Did I miss something?  I always said fescue was grown in sand and not clay.

Joe,
Good comments... I can show you some bunkers near me that have the narly look with bermuda because that is what was desired.  I would bet that they change within 2 years.  It is impossible to play out of such a grass.  And there is another in GA where they desired a rough of the consistency that you describe.  In bermuda, you cannot even find it much less play it.  Sometimes it is frustrating because a developer will think he is "on to something" with the "name " architect when the locals know that what is being done will not last yet it will give him the "now look" in order to promote his "type" of course over the competition.
Mike

[Mike_Young]

RC,
Zoyzia is great.I also think it makes a course play longer but it is longer in recovery from divots.

I still disagree that even with excessive maintanance budgets you can have the same conditions as a cool season , sand base course in the south.  Have you ever seen Augusta Nat'l when it is July.  Many would be surprised.
For what it would cost we could not afford to play.
Northern course make more profit than southern courses for a couple of reasons
1. in sand they can be built more economically
2. their season is summer when the days are longer and the temps are cooler therefore letting more people play  whereas in the south our best season is march and part of april followed by late sept and oct, nov.  all having shorter days...in summer people don,t play in the middle of the day
3. in the north they close for winter whereas we stay open ..maintaining and operating a course that has short days and sometimes only 10 or 20 player on a feb day.
Just my opinions
Mike

[Willie_Dow]

So, Don - what does salt do to the soil that makes it all work?  Prarie Dunes is Morton Salt, and that is why they have that fine fescue.  Salt mines support that soil, and the fescue is fine.  As is at Kittansett, on the shore of the Buzzards Bay.
Can't find this fescue around Philly!!  I doubt I ever will!
Thanks!
Willie

[WillieDow_]

So, in my opinion, leave it like it is, and adjust accordingly, the ground will tell us what to do!

[Gaia]

It's not nice to fool Mother Nature!

[Don_Mahaffey]

Willie,
You've lost me. I don't think the key to good fine fescues is an Alkaline or salt-affected soil. In fact, if I remember correctly, fine fescues are not very tolerant of high salts in the soil. I think you need to clarify what you mean by adding salt. We fertilize with salts, and most of the base cations, Ca, Mg, K, and Na, form salts when combined with other elements like Cl. But, I've never heard of adding "salts". From what I know if you want to grow good fescue, you need a temperate climate, sandy, well drained soil, good irrigation water quality or adequate rainfall, and limited traffic (no carts) during times of stress. I also think you need patience as it seems to take a few seasons to get it properly grown in. Dan Lucas, super at the Kingsley Club is someone I would consider an expert on the subject and he could give you better information then I.

[Willie_Dow]

Sorry,
I'm not very conversant with this subject.  But we have a little course up here in New England on Buzzards Bay that has a lot of fescue.  I'm trying to figure out what to do with our grasses, which are mostly not maintained, but have great roots, since 1903, and the question relates to what we have here in the ground.
Apparently, salt is good for fescue growth!
I realize I have brought you into this disussion group unannounced, but we are on a very tight budget, like nothing! And your comments are wonderful.
Willie