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Emmy

Re: Great Architecture Alone Cannot Drive Economic Success
« Reply #25 on: July 25, 2008, 11:49:44 PM »
Seems to me, a course with great architecture (in the right location) has a chance for success, if its pricing is properly positioned, and if, only if, it's backed up by a staff that provides extraordinary customer service.





Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Architecture Alone Cannot Drive Economic Success
« Reply #26 on: July 26, 2008, 12:10:05 AM »
Ryan,

Thats a great question concerning Bandon.  I've given more thought than I should admit to as to what really is the draw at Bandon.  We as architecture geeks love the courses, but how much does that carry over to the average joe golfer.

No doubt its a great location, the resort is all about golf, next to the ocean, and the food/fare/bar scene is very nice.  Is it the remoteness and the entire experience that draws them or the architecture?  I'd love to think the courses play the biggest factor, but just don't know.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Architecture Alone Cannot Drive Economic Success
« Reply #27 on: July 26, 2008, 01:11:43 AM »
Does this pressure from the money people strip some of what you would call the "art" of what you do?  Maybe an example would be, given your last project, would you have done it differently if the client said, "Here's the land, tell me what it cost and what it looks like when you get finished."?


Brad,

Yeah, the City of Carrollton at Indian Creek and Jerry Jones at Cowboys told me not to build "goofy greens."  Obviously, I toned them down......

Seriously, my best courses have been the ones where I get a broad general idea from the Owner and they let me go my way for the most part.  Throughout the project, a lot of people get involved, such as the super, the management company, etc.  Each has their own ideas, usually more that the Owner, because of their expertise.  When enough people get involved, the pressure to make the project more conforming starts to grow.

I recall an article in the auto trade years ago, where they showed the design process of a car for GM.  The designers created a real cool concept car.  Then the marketeers started wondering if it was "too hip" for their aging demographics.  Then, the engineers chimed in with the supposed need to use as many existing parts as possible.  Lastly, the stale old management didn't want to change the "brand" too much.

In the end, the proposed hot new sports car was just another bust for GM, too drab to really grab attention and dominate the market.

So, it's not a perfect analogy, but it can be that way in golf design, too.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Architecture Alone Cannot Drive Economic Success
« Reply #28 on: July 26, 2008, 01:13:15 AM »
By the way, we gca nuts wouldn't believe it, but about 90$% of rounds are driven by some combo of drive time and green fees.  With $4 gas, it won't change much!

Golf is a biz, and in biz, the saying is location, location, location, not design, design, design!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jim Nugent

Re: Great Architecture Alone Cannot Drive Economic Success
« Reply #29 on: July 26, 2008, 05:41:23 AM »

Location and price are most important even for the vast majority of private clubs.  After that, a solid reputation as a course in good condition is also very important.


Chris, what is a good location for a golf course?   

On the question of this thread: great architecture does not guarantee economic success.  Lido and St. Andrews Beach are two examples of this.  I bet it can help drive economic success, though. 

Rich's post about retailers flocking together: I don't know retail, but I do know direct mail.  What he said is absolutely true of DM.  Direct mailers rent lists of people who have already bought things, in direct mail, that are nearly identical to what they are selling. 

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Architecture Alone Cannot Drive Economic Success
« Reply #30 on: July 26, 2008, 09:29:26 AM »
Jim,

A good location is a golf course one can drive to in 20 minutes or less.

If the drive gets much farther out than that, people begin to hesitate or think more about "is it worth it" to drive out to hit balls or try and get nine holes in.  I'm speaking of my experience in a private club although I have to believe a similar drive-time calculus exists when driving to a daily fee course as well.

Private club managers used to joke that the perfect member was the rare guy who joined and then never came out to play--he just kept sending in his monthly dues.  We now know that the biggest reason people quit clubs is that they found "they just were not using it like they thought they would".  Now, private clubs try to get new members really involved as soon as possible so they have friends and a regular game that keeps them anchored to the club.  We all know it makes more sense to try and keep a customer/member versus trying to get a new one to join.

One key selling point private has versus public is the allure of the early afternoon golf--check out of work a little early on a beautiful summer afternoon, zip over to the club to hit a few balls and then get in at least 9 and maybe even 18 holes in before dark.  You can't do that at a public (the prettier the day, the busier it is and many daily fees still don't have attractive 9 hole rates??) and if your drive is 45 minutes that kills the idea as well.

20 minutes is a good rule of thumb for the northern suburbs of Atlanta.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2008, 09:47:44 AM by Chris Cupit »

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Architecture Alone Cannot Drive Economic Success
« Reply #31 on: July 26, 2008, 10:03:44 AM »
Chris -

Your 20 minute rule is a pretty good one. You aren't going to drive much farther than that to hit a few practice balls and hang out with the guys for a beer.

I've heard from several members at two in-town clubs that their courses north of perimeter are so far out (both 45 minutes plus) that they are having issues with low usage. After having spend large sums to buy or build the courses.

Bob

Lynn_Shackelford

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Architecture Alone Cannot Drive Economic Success
« Reply #32 on: July 26, 2008, 11:48:10 AM »
On the other hand, it is seldom I play with anyone at Rustic Canyon who lives within 20 minutes drive time of the course.  Maybe this is a Ventura County thing, but at Rustic I would say that 20 minutes needs to be expanded to 55 minutes each way.  When I ask them why they drive so far, they say they like the course.
It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson

Jason McNamara

Re: Great Architecture Alone Cannot Drive Economic Success
« Reply #33 on: July 26, 2008, 05:09:14 PM »
Lynn -

Yeah, the 20-minute rule may have to be amended for Houston and LA, since you can't get anywhere in 20 minutes in either city, and the locals seem to have adjusted.  I live in Houston, and when visiting a friend in LA (Westwood), driving up to Goleta to play Sandpiper was just no problem at all.

I imagine the same is true in NYC, since a golf outing first involves renting a car(!?).

Jason

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Great Architecture Alone Cannot Drive Economic Success
« Reply #34 on: July 26, 2008, 05:54:53 PM »

There are very few courses whose popularity is based on architecture because the public is mostly ignorant of good architecture. 


Do Bethpage, Wild Horse, Rustic Canyon, and even Tokatee disprove that theory ?


Developers will sacrifice great architecture to give the public what it thinks they want.  Public plays said courses and remains ignorant of great architecture.


Do Bethpage, Wild Horse, Rustic Canyon, and even Tokatee disprove that theory ?

Does being the only game in town, or a reasonable radius support or couinter that theory ?