Saint Louis CC profile is updated

[Ran Morrissett]

When you think of Raynor and the mid-west of the country, the four courses that spring to mind are Chicago GC, Shoreacres, Camargo and Saint Louis CC. They are all gems, of course, with each one absolutely distinct from the others despite the similar classic holes that they all share. Of the four courses as they exist today, Saint Louis is both the oldest as well as the one that has, at least in my opinion, the most overt Macdonald influence. He was there on the ground in Saint Louis and maybe it is my imagination, but every time he was on site, the designs that he shared with Raynor all had an extra element of fun, as well as a certain boldness.

To that point, of these four, is it just possible that Saint Louis may be the most fun to play? Impossible to answer for sure! Nonetheless, even within the Macdonald/Raynor family of courses, the stretch from the second through the eighth at SLCC seems a real standout. Of course, a member might readily counter that he likes the seven hole stretch from the twelfth hole in just as much or more. That's the point - it is just a wonderful string of holes from start to finish, period.

Brian Silva, thankfully never one to take himself or golf too seriously (it's a game after all!) , was the perfect architect for re-capturing Macdonald's enjoyable strategic dilemmas. Add in Kye Goalby's excellent in the dirt work highlighted by some fantastic bunkers around the turn like at the eighth, eleventh and twelfth holes, and you have a great restorative effort.

Thus, it is a pleasure to update the course profile with current text and larger photographs of this historical gem.

Where do you place SLCC in the Macdonald/Raynor family? What do you like/dislike?

Cheers,

[JWinick]

I heard that Saint Louis is closed until the spring to change their turf from bent to bermuda.   I'm curious to see what people's thoughts are when clubs make that change and how it impacts the playability of the golf course.

[David Stamm]

Thanks Ran! Great update! Silva is doing some great resto work.

[C. Squier]

I was very fortunate to play this gem earlier in the year.  The winter months were very unforgiving to the St. Louis area and was told at the time they would be shutting down and replanting the fairways. 

As for the course, even though I was suffering with a terrible fever that lasted over a week, I had a ball.  I walked along for the entire backside, but I just had to play the reverse Redan #16.  Hit it to 20 feet and just walked to the #17th tee box. 

My question for Ran is this:  You mentioned this is a Raynor course and I was under the impression of that as well.  However, when I played everyone there gave Macdonald the credit.  My yardage guide from the club also has an introductory section of which the first 2 pages are totally dedicated to Macdonald's history and Raynor is never mentioned in the entire guide.  Who dun it?

Clint

[SPDB]

I loved SLCC, and thought it was some of Silva's most thoughtful restoration work (esp. relative to others, e.g. Mtn Lake).

Ran,
In the review, Silva references the "comfortable routing," but how does this square with the 16th & 17th, where you essentially play the 16th and walk directly back to the 17th tee which sits astride the 16th. This seems to be a major routing flaw.  I don't know the history, so I don't know if MacDonald/Raynor are responsible. My guess is that at some point the club sought length at the 17th, and hence the walk back to its tee.

Do you know the history?

[Phil McDade]

Man, the cheeseheads get no respect... 

Didn't you play it enough to be a candidate for a My Home Course profile? If you can get me on, I'll do it instead.

[Gerry B]

was just there last month - they are closing next month to re-do the fairways - they have browned them out with roundup - but it was still playable. the course is wonderful and has a 5th par 3 - the crater hole - only cbm / raynor course to have such a hole.

if i had to compare it to another CBM and or  Raynor course - Fox Chapel comes to mind - which i played last weekend.

[PThomas]

it is a VERY cool golf course!

[Buck Wolter]

I heard that Saint Louis is closed until the spring to change their turf from bent to bermuda.   I'm curious to see what people's thoughts are when clubs make that change and how it impacts the playability of the golf course.

I am almost certain the fairways/greens will remain bent

[Gerry B]

i was told that the current fairways are a mixture of different grasses fro different plantings over the years - will check and report back

[Jim Nugent]

SLCC is pretty hilly.  While the color photos flatten out the land's movement, you get a much better sense for it in the B&W photo of #11. 

Does anyone know when they changed the Biarritz there, so the green included the swale? 

[Bill Brightly]

Ran,

Great job and thank you for the update on Saint Louis CC!

Is their Principal's Nose bunker actaully two or three bunkers?



Anyone else know?

[Jeff_Stettner]

From memory I believe it is 3, but I could be wrong.

[SPDB]

The PN at SLCC like most of MacD/Raynor PNs (and the original at St. Andrew's) is composed of 3 bunkers.

[MBL]

The Biarritz or "Double Plateau" (as referenced on the card .... but wait, wouldn't that be #15 green!), as far as any of the historians can tell, has always been a full green space. 

St. Louis' Principal has a mouth, a nose and two nostrils.

As for the CBM / Raynor query, Raynor was the engineer - in the dirt - while Macdonald routed, designed greens, 'architected'.

And indeed, the fairways, greens and rough are being regrassed: blue grass in the rough, Declaration bent on the fairways and a4 on the greens.  The course shuts down Aug 11.

[Hunt]

Mark,
I thought Declaration was the fairway bent?

Jim,
Originally, #2 was a par 4. Played that way in the 1921 Amateur. Sadly, many of the old photos have been lost over the course of time that would depict whether it was mown back then.

[wsmorrison]

St. Louis CC is an interesting golf course with hole designs across a broad continuum.  Some are excellent, some solid and some mediocre.

The first hole, even though a starter hole in days without many driving ranges (did SLCC have one from the beginning?), is merely OK with a relatively flat, wide fairway bordered on the right by a straight line of trees interceding between the road and the fairway.  The green is not very interesting.
The second and third holes are excellent back to back par 3s. 
The fourth, solid if unspectacular.
The fifth has a nice tee shot and good second shot.  Might it be a bit better if it was a bit shorter and there was a nice go-no go temptation?  The green is rather plain and though blind, offers little uncertainty given the bowl-like nature of the green.  Is it a good idea to have a punchbowl on a blind green?
The sixth is an excellent design with terrific movement in the fairway and an excellent green complex.
The seventh is OK, if you like overtly manufactured looking holes and another raised green complex.
The tee shot is very cramped and the green very disappointing after an interesting dogleg.
A good, but far from great par 5.  I don't see why a rectangular property boundary, especially one as vast as SLCC stymies the use of doglegs.  Does the property boundary have to be square, round or even a dogleg shape to suggest more dogleg holes?  Rather, I think it is the pattern of Macdonald and Raynor to have few offset fairways and greens.  Their designs test line of play and distance less so than other designers that use offsets more often.
Eleven is another good hole, far from great.
Twelve is solid and thirteen very good.
Fourteen is the longest hole, which is why I feel the course fails in this era to shot test as well as required in a great golf course.  There should be a couple of longer par 4 holes.
Fifteen is very good.
Sixteen, though often passed over by critics, is a very poor example of a Redan.  The green hardly has any aiding slope from left to right.  And after playing such a mediocre hole, you have to completely reverse your path back to the right of the 16th tee in order to tee off on seventeen.  Why this routing flaw (were the holes subsequently rerouted in this area for some reason?) is not discussed is a curious matter and one I recognize in many observations of Macdonald and Raynor courses.  Overt flaws are overlooked or compartmentalized too readily as acceptable quirk.  This awkward routing might be forgiven if 17 was an outstanding design.  It is a mediocre tee shot with a darn good and interesting green site, very narrow along the line of play.
Eighteen is a nice uphill tee shot with a man-made green complex that some are sure to love.  I remain unsure after only one play whether I think it a good or great hole.  All in all, the club is excellent and the golf course very good.  I don't get the acclaim some give it, but there are more devoted fans of Macdonald than I.  I love National Golf Links, but in comparison, SLCC pales for the most part.  That's how great NGLA is and I guess how solid SLCC is.

[Buck Wolter]

Wayne-
Isn't comparing NGLA to SLCC like comparing Shinnecock to Glen View, I've heard no one suggest SLCC is somehow the equal to NGLA but it is a great urban, midwest golf course. You obviously don't like CBM/Raynor courses -- we get it .

[wsmorrison]

Buck,

If you read Ran's initial post on this thread, he asked us to put SLCC in perspective with other Macdonald and Raynor courses.  I obliged.  Furher to that request, I consider SLCC to be somewhat below Creek Club.  About on par with Westhampton and Yeaman's Hall.  Above Southampton.

Your contribution to the thread is merely to criticize my post and observe my issues with Macdonald, Raynor and Banks courses.  I said what I liked and disliked.  You have the opportunity to do the same yet you criticize me for doing what Ran requested?

SHGC versus Glen View is not nearly as close a comparison as is SLCC and NGLA.

So great urban midwest golf courses are what?  Great simply as regards Mid-West courses, or America?  I don't understand why you must sequester these courses from others, particularly in the same family of designers.  Sorry, but I don't consider SLCC to be at all great.  It is a very fine course.  Perhaps amongst its neighbors it is great, but not compared to a larger sampling of American courses.  I don't know that many courses in the Mid-West (though I do know Glen View).  Westwood CC might be as good or better than SLCC on some design levels.  I'll have to give it more thought.

[Buck Wolter]

Wayne-
Ran's initial post was comparing Midwest Raynor courses and asking if SLCC might not be more fun than Camargo, Chicago and Shoreacres -- I didn't see NGLA mentioned at all. How many courses in the world don't pale in comparison to NGLA? 20?
I don't care enough to go searching the archives but I've read enough of your posts to believe that you don't particularly care for the manufactured look of  CBM/Raynor courses and I believe your review of SLCC backs that up.

For example:
The seventh is OK, if you like overtly manufactured looking holes and another raised green complex.

I have a hard time seeing how someone could sell that hole so short but different strokes...

[wsmorrison]

Buck,

Consider the last full line of the initial post by Ran.

Why would you or anyone else expect the architecture of Macdonald and especially Raynor to be beyond criticism?  Do you think the 16th and 17th hole routing at SLCC is anything other than bad?  If I seem to be one of the few or only to not fawn over their work, so be it.  To me, it isn't that great compared to Colt, Flynn and MacKenzie (for the most part) and others.  When Pat Mucci prostrates himself over NGLA (a course I constantly praise by the way), do you admonish him with "OK, I get it" ?  Why not?  Is it because you have a biased regard?

[Ari Techner]

Ran,

Thanks for the great profile update.  In my quest to play all the MacDonald and Raynor courses courses Saint Louis CC and Chicago GC are right at the very top of my want to play list.

[Jim Nugent]

Mark,
I thought Declaration was the fairway bent?

Jim,
Originally, #2 was a par 4. Played that way in the 1921 Amateur. Sadly, many of the old photos have been lost over the course of time that would depict whether it was mown back then.

This really surprises me, unless the hole was a lot longer then.  With current course boundaries, there is no room to push the tee back.  Maybe it was different in 1921.  If not, a 220 yard par 4, that might play 180 when the pin is up front. 

If there was an "up front."  This makes me wonder if the green did include the front part and swale back then.  Of course, a back tee could solve that problem: the hole might play 250 to 300.  Though it would require a longer walk from the first green.   

Several posters here have assured me that NO Biarritz greens back then included the swale.  If SLCC, opened 1914, did include the swale, we have to re-write the history of the Biarritz.     

Did Raynor and/or CBM keep any routing maps of SLCC? 

[Hunt]

Wayne,
We've covered this ground before. SLCC was designed to be a country club version of NGLA. As golf interest spread throughout the country, he wanted to give newcomers to the game a challenge, but I do not believe he intended it to be at the level of NGLA. Therefore, comparisons should take this into account.

Next time you play 16, start front left and walk to the back right portion of the green. I think you will be surprised by the elevation change.

A restoration has been underway for years but extending the golf course much more is not really an option. Thus, one could argue accentuating template hole traits-like increasing the cant on the Nader-could strengthen the course in the future.

While regrassing, it is hoped some of the trees can be cut back on 16 green (your favorite ) and along 18 fairway and green. This would allow better grass growth and original intented pin placements to return.

Jim,
As Mark references, the scorecard has always indicated #2 is Double Plateau. Would that not imply two green levels? I believe the average drive during the 1910 and 20's for amateurs was around 175 yards. Maybe some others here could confirm that. Hole plays anywhere from 185-240 yards. In any case, it appears the hole was designed to test one's driving and chipping skills. 

The swale is original so either those posters are mistaken or it's not a Biarritz 

[MBL]

Hunt,

My mistake on the fairway variety - Declaration it is (reference to dollar spot resistance).