Canada's Best Courses (?)

[Jeff Mingay]

SCORE Golf, Canada's national golf magazine, revealed its biennial list of Canada's 100 "Best" golf courses this evening.

Check out the list at www.scoregolf.com/rankings/index.cfm?fuseaction=top100

Looking forward to comments  

[Mike_Cirba]

Jeff,

I've unfortunately played very little in Canada, but the list seems to have changed SIGNIFICANTLY in the past two years.  

Two questions;

1) How do you account for those changes, and do you think they are for the better?  I sense they are.

2) Did Ken Venturi really design a course in Canada?  How is it?

[Brad Klein]

Pretty good list. 45 of them are public. Stanely Thompson has 17 of them (I may have mis-counted), including the top-3 (St. George's, Highland Links and Capilano).

I've played 19 of them, and have some quibbles, but who wouldn't with such a list? I found it interesting that three traditional Canadian Hotel/Fairmont properties with great golf legacies didn't make the list - Manoir Richelieu, Algonguin and Montebello.

[Brad Klein]

Recounted - Stanley Thompson has 19 of thm.

Interestingly, by Golfweek standards, 39 are Classical and 61 are Modern, with many more from the 1950s and 1960s than we have on either side of the divide.

[Mike_Cirba]

Thomas McBroom's courses seem to be immensely popular, and I know he wins a lot of "Best of" awards in Golf Digest.  

Jeff; could you tell us a little about his style and whether he's as good an architect as it would seem from looking at this list?

[ian]

Missing in action:

Laval-sur-le-lac
Beaconsfield
Lookout Point !?
Islesmere
Waskesiu
Rosedale !?

While not perfect (can't be), its more accurate than any other list to date.

I'll never get the appeal of Royal Montreal, it may be tough, but its incredible repetative

[ian]

Mike,

Like O'Meara, Strange and Couples etc. he lent his name and another person did all the work.

[Mike_Cirba]

Ian;

Is McBroom a touring profesional?  

[Tyler Kearns]

Mike,
        Tom McBroom is not a touring professional, he is a registered landscape architect in Ontario, and a member of the ASGCA. He recieved his bachelor degree in landscape architecture from Guelph University in 1975, and established his practice in 1978.

[Jeff Mingay]

Mike,

As the magazine's editor, Bob Weeks, points out on the website, there's more than 50 percent turnover in ranking panelists every two years. I guess this explains why so many courses have jumped so dramatically, up and down, from list to list since SCORE Golf started ranking courses in 1988 (particularly over the past three lists).

Personally, I think the SCORE Golf ranking loses credibility for this very reason. I mean, how can you take it seriously when the last three rankings (1998, 2000 and 2002) have revealed a new #1 (National GC, Highlands Links and St. George's)?

I haven't seen Ken Venturi's course. In fact, I don't even know where it is.

McBroom courses are very popular in Canada, indeed. To be honest, most aren't my "cup of tea". I find most of his courses look and play very similarly-- from Morgan Creek out in British Columbia, to his new Rocky Crest in cottage country north of Toronto, to his redo of Donald Ross' Algonquin on the east coast in New Brunswick. They're very similar in appearance and character.

I'd compare McBroom's work and his practice to Tom Fazio and Rees Jones. I'd say his courses are very efficient; functional and "friendly" to high-handicappers; and most benefit from an adequate maintenance budget that provides for turf conditions that "impress" the average golfer.

My biggest "pet peeve" are his bunkers. They're generally very stale, and nearly always filled with glaring white sand.

One of the most interesting holes he's laid-out is the short (110 yards or so) par 3 17th at the Links at Crowbush Cove on the north shore of Prince Edward Island. Funny though, a large majority of Canadian golfers hate this hole!

Sitting on a ridge, high above the Atlantic Ocean to the left, the 17th green is elevated some 20 feet above the level of the tee. It's tiny surface is quite heavily contoured and also blind from the tee. And a consisent ocean breeze crosses the hole. It's a really, really neat shot -- terribly difficult for a short pitch.

It's visually quite attractive as well, with natural vegetation between the tee and the putting surface, covering the hillside leading up to the green.

I can't figure out why this is the least liked hole at Crowbush? There's worse!

[Jeff Mingay]

At one point, SCORE Golf was ranking the 25 Best courses in Canada. Then they went to 50, now 100. For Canada, I think a ranking of 50 is plenty. Looking at this year's list again, it really starts to get uninteresting after you pass about #30. Just my opinion.

I can't argue with the top 3; although I tend to put Jasper ahead of Capilano. Interesting to that Thompson courses made a huge leap -- most notably Jasper (from 21 in 2000 to 11 in 2002) and Banff (45 to 15). This can't be disputed. There's been a rebirth of interest and appreciation for Thompson's work in Canada in the last few years, thanks in part to Highlands Links jumping to #1 in 2000, Jim Barcaly's bigraphy "The Toronto Terror", and the establishment of The Stanley Thompson Society.

A few other interesting notes: Redtail rise from 20 to 5 (!); Crowbush Cove from 10 to 6 (the setting on the north shore of PEI, along the Atlantic Ocean, overwhelms golfers. This is not the 6th best collection of golf holes in Canada); and two Doug Carrick designs -- Angus Glen South (site of the 2002 Canadian Open) and King Valley drop.

Carrick has been receiving a tonne of positive press in recent years. Surprising that Anugus Glen dropped from 14 to 18; and King Valley from 12 to 27.

And how about Rod Whitman's Wolf Creek, out in the middle of nowhere, Ponoka, Alberta, jumping from 23 to 17!

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

That was my first reaction upon Jeff Mingay being asked about McBroom.

This list is mind boggling, with that much change it simply does not make sense.

There is no explanation for Banff Springs jumping from 45th to 15th, (should have always been there).

More importantly, Lake Joe among the top 10!?!?

I am in full agreement with Jeff, when such huge changes occur, the panel is too small, or changes too often (perhaps the same problem).  

Mike, Eagle Creek is a fun and challenging course located near Ottawa.  While Ian is undoubtedly correct that Venturi had little to do, I am not sure who is behind it.

Brad makes another good point, though I am not sure he necessarily was trying to.  The resort areas have benefited a great deal from panelist traffic.  Bell Bay debuted on the list at 56th, not deserving in my opinion, but this is obviously a result of the traffic to the Highlands Links, likewise with the second course at Mt. Tremblant (39th )

To Brad's real point, significant work has been done or planned to be done at all those three properties, which may explain their absence.  Though, I may be on of the few who would include Montebello in my top 100, most find it "short" and "tricked up", yes Jeff M, you would love it.

Also, because I have been this picky thus far, architect credits are wrong in a few cases, so some of those Thompson's are not really his.

Lastly, while I am thrilled to see Thompson receive recognition, undoubtedly in some cases due to restoration (St. Thomas jumping to 58th from 87th after Ian Andrew's handiwork), however Cataraqui almost fell off the list.  It seems that small private clubs are falling off (Mount Bruno, Cataraqui) and I cannot help but worry about this trend.

PS This really screws up my Banff Springs piece for the In My Opinion section I have been working on.

[Matt Kardash]

i live in montreal, and if there is one thing i always notice about these top 100 in canada lists is that that the quebec representation is very low for some reason..quebec has some fine courses(usually old and very private)...maybe since there is a language barrier for some, quebec seems to get the old shafteroni..hehe..
infact yesterday i picked up a magazine(Golf International) while finsihing a round of golf and it had a list of the top 50 course sin quebec, here's the top 20
#denotes canada top 100

1. Royal Montreal (blue) #
2. Pinegrove
3. Joliette
4. Beaconsfield
5. Kanawaki
6. Royal Ottawa #  *funny how this course is actually in quebec*
7. Mount Bruno #
8. Laval-sure-le-lac (green)
9. Le Maitre de Mont Tremblant
10. Royal quebec (Royal) #
11. Hillsdale (laurentian)
12. Laval-sur-le-lac (blue)
13. Elm ridge (North)
14. Islemere
15. Le Blainvillier (Royal) #  *where i happen to be a member  *
16. Royal Montreal (red)
17. Temblant (diable) #
18. Le Mirage (Caroline) # *celine dion owns this course, that's bad   *
19. Summerlea
20. Whitlock

this list gives you a good idea of what the better courses in quebec are

courses that made the canada top 100 but are not in the quebec top 20

25. Tremblant (le geant)
31. Vallee du richelieu (rouville)

this list is insane....they have le mirage but they don't have pinegrove, beaconsfield, kanawaki, laval-sur-le-lac, elm rdge or islemere.

on the plus side there is a pleasant surprise on that list which happens to be my club, le Blainvillier. this is the first time it made it onto the list, i always thought this was one of quebecs finest courses(surely the most difficult, even at only 6600 yards)

now i will stop my endless babble
 

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

That list is striking as well.  How Le Diable receives acclaim is beyond me.

Geant is one of McBroom's superior designs, definitely superior to Maitre and Diable in my opinion.  Not as high Score has it, but solid.

I have to imagine that Royal Quebec is a treat, it is high on my list to see.

[Matt Kardash]

in that list of quebecs top 20 courses they had really only one credible panelist, graham cooke, one of canada's leading architects(i'd rather have an architect vote than an amateur golfer, which many have the panelists are)
anyways cooke had this as his top 3
1. Royal ottawa
2. royal quebec
3. Le Blainvillier (Royal) *which he designed by the way, maybe that's cheating*...he's one of the few panelists who didn't have royal montreal in their top 3...

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Score for the first time this year has not allowed architects to vote on the list of Top 100.  There is always an inherent flaw in allowing architects to rate their own work.  

I have not seen Le Blainvillier, but that is elite company to place ahead of Bruno or Geant, let alone Royal Montreal.

Ben

[Brad Klein]

With one-tenth the population of the US and one-tenth the number of golf courses, rating the top-100 in Canada is akin to rating the top-1,000 in the UISA. That would lead to a lot of statistical variability.

The problem is compounded because SCORE's methods are not at all clear and the ballots are taken anew each year with a rather large turnover of raters. The result is too little coverage, fluctuation in standards, and too many courses getting on without benefit of a large enough sample. They'd be better off holding over the votes and averaging the results over a two-year period, or just focusing on the top-50 or so. But then why give up potential advertisers who make the second-half of the list? I don't doubt Bob Weeks' good intentions in this. But I know how tough it is to devise a reliable ballot system.

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Brad you are right.  It would seem they need to commit more raters to the process.  With only 46 raters deciding among over two thousand courses, it is no wonder certain courses fluctuate.  Assuming you lost two people from the panel who had been big supporters, you can imagine why Weston would fall 48 spots.

[ian]

This is speaking from past experience and I could be currently wrong. They used to have each panelist rate there top 15, and they would total all the ratings and post an average score for comparrison. My problem was that it did not allow me to "rate down" courses I did not find greatness in. It only allowed me to boost the clubs I like. Biggest problem is seeing all the courses. I have played in all 10 provinces and have travelled a lot, but I only reach 52.

Do note that clubs such as Mount Bruno, Hamilton, Toronto all don't give a rats ass about this rating and don't invite panelists out. Other clubs, some of ours included do.

Of note, Architects were not on the last panel either.

I also agree with Brad's comment, too many. Top 25 is more realistic.

[Jeff Mingay]

I saw Bob Weeks today, but in the midst of other things forgot to bring up the 2002 rankings.

In short though, SCORE Golf would be well-advised to reduce the total number of courses listed to 50 (if not 25, as Ian suggests) and, perhaps more importantly, keep some consistency with panelists. The same people, plus or minus a few, should remain on the panel for always -- like Golfweek, GOLF and Golf Digest, for example.

Maybe the rating criteria needs to be modified as well, I don't know. I'm not totally familiar with it at present.

Last, it is a bit strange that so many resort and public courses make the list and that so admirable private courses are omitted. I guess, as Ian's says, the private clubs give the list no credibility and thus could care less about accomodating raters. It's too bad.

A "good" list of the top Canadian courses is useful.

[Brad Klein]

Hey, let's be fair here. It's a good list. Okay, it's not a flawless one, but still a worthy effort that draws attention to a much-overlooked area of very strong design.

Brad

[Doug Wright]

I hadn't realized till checking this list that Whirlpool GC (#47) is a Stanley Thompson course. It's one of my favourite public courses anywhere, as fair and playable yet challenging as they come. If you're in the Niagara Falls area don't miss it...

All The Best,

[Lou Duran]

I've had the pleasure of playing several courses in Canada, including Beacon Hall, Glen Abby, and Deerhurst Highlands.  Not only are these formidable tests of golf, they were all built on difficult terrain.  The beauty of the courses and the surroundings is only surpassed by the warmth of the Canadian people.  I've always wanted to play the National, so if someone has played it and Beacon Hall, I am interested in comparison.

If anyone visits the Muskoka Lake region, stop by "Diamond in the Ruff" and say hello to Brian and Julie Leggett.  Play their short nine hole course (under 3,000 yds. I believe).   It is a lot of fun, in great condition, and they serve fantastic food in the clubhouse.   The course does brisk business during the summer season catering to the cottage folks.  The prices are very reasonable, and you never know who you might run into up there (Kurt Russell and his son were hitting balls there during my last visit).        

[Matt Kardash]

jeff,
nice to see your commentary on the CTV telecast

[jg7236]

Dr. Michael Hurdzan:

Devil's Paintbrush-Caledon Township, Ontario

Devil's Pulpit-Caledon Township, Ontario

Westwood Plateau-Coguitlam, British Columbia