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Joe Bausch

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Was William Flynn a subscriber to The Evening Bulletin?
« on: July 23, 2008, 11:15:00 AM »
If you remember a thread from a few weeks ago:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,35516.msg717917.html#msg717917

where I posted hole by hole drawings of Merion East for the 1930 USAm from the Philadelphia Public Ledger, then you'll like this update even more so.  I've looked through another local paper on microfilm, The Evening Bulletin, and their coverage of the 1930 tournament is the most extensive I've seen yet.  I'll report more on that later.

For now I've gathered up the hole by hole drawings published in the 'Bulletin', and they are also likely Flynn drawings, but they are much more detailed than those I showed earlier.  So perhaps Flynn was a Bulletin reader more than the Ledger and they got the better drawings!  Enjoy.


















@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re: Was William Flynn a subscriber to The Evening Bulletin?
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2008, 11:31:55 AM »
Joe:

Another great find.

I just compared those to the Kittansett drawings and they do not look to be drawn by the same hand.


Anthony


Joe Bausch

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Re: Was William Flynn a subscriber to The Evening Bulletin?
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2008, 12:01:38 PM »
Joe:

Another great find.

I just compared those to the Kittansett drawings and they do not look to be drawn by the same hand.


Anthony:  are the Kittansett drawings for certain done by Flynn?
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re: Was William Flynn a subscriber to The Evening Bulletin?
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2008, 02:34:30 PM »
Mr. Morrison says they are done in Flynn's hand.

Anthony


Cabell Ackerly

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Re: Was William Flynn a subscriber to The Evening Bulletin?
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2008, 04:38:10 PM »
Is it crazy to assume that a local artist may have drawn these for the paper?

Mike_Cirba

Re: Was William Flynn a subscriber to The Evening Bulletin?
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2008, 04:40:04 PM »
Joe,

The artist of these pics looks like the same one for the Joe Dey series on great holes, no?

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Was William Flynn a subscriber to The Evening Bulletin?
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2008, 08:59:59 PM »
To me, the yardage scale on the right of the drawings cinches the fact that they were drawn by an architect.  I know 0.01% as much as Tom or Wayne about Flynn, but they look like his drawings I've seen.

Joe Bausch

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Re: Was William Flynn a subscriber to The Evening Bulletin?
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2008, 09:02:47 PM »
Joe,

The artist of these pics looks like the same one for the Joe Dey series on great holes, no?

Good observation Mike.  That hadn't occurred to me, but it probably should have.

Note:  that series of Joe Dey articles was from 1931.... and, Joe Dey was writing for the Bulletin in 1930.  He had an article or two most days during the 1930 USAm.   So, maybe Joe Dey was an artist as well!  Who knows?
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

wsmorrison

Re: Was William Flynn a subscriber to The Evening Bulletin?
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2008, 11:10:33 PM »
Flynn's drawing skill and style changed markedly between his Kittansett drawings and his later years.  His daughter said that he improved dramatically over the years to become a very accomplished drawer/draftsman.   The presentation drawings (India ink on linen) were done by WS Nichols, of Philadelphia.  Flynn would draw them in pencil and Nichols would ink them and add artistic touches.  It is likely that Flynn's drawings of Merion were initially drawn by Flynn then inked and enhanced by Nichols. 

Moriarty, in the other thread has no idea about Flynn's redesign methods.  If he did, he would know that Flynn would have the existing course surveyed and put on a topo map.  He would make his initial design plans on top of that topo, usually in orange pencil.  He would come up with his final plans on a topo and then draw individual hole drawings to scale, including greens, all with detailed construction instructions and flow lines.  Flynn's plans were remarkably accurate.  Overlaying the plans on old aerials show an amazing accuracy.  These were not drawings based on as built, these were drawings that preceded construction.  We don't have every drawing of every course, nor every iteration of every hole--he designed on paper many iterations before the final plan was adopted.  Flynn wasted little time, money or resources and for the most part devised his ideas on paper before putting them on the ground.  Of course there were bound to be some surprises underground so some things were changed in the field, but that was the rare exception.

We also have maps and hole drawings that showed changes over time, especially at Merion.  It is easy to erase India ink on linen (though traces can be seen) so the changes that were made over time (for instance between 1930 Am and 1934 Open at Merion) show clearly what was done.  Flynn's habit of mapping existing course, step by step design drawings and finished drawings clearly demonstrate what was, what he did, and how that differs from today.  That is how we are able to historically document design evolutions for clubs to use in their restoration plans (e.g. Shinnecock, Cascades, Huntingdon Valley, etc.).   Contemporary newspaper and journal articles, ground photos, aerials, etc. help as well.  But Flynn's methodologies make it clear who did what and when for courses where we have sufficient archival information.  We have a tremendous amount for Shinnecock (proving a number of previously held beliefs incorrect) and The Country Club, as well as courses he remodeled over time including Cascades, Merion, Huntingdon Valley, Phila Country, etc.).

We never stated that everything Flynn drew was a design of his, as Moriarty would have you believe.  We have a process in place and experience to determine what existed prior and post Flynn.  It is best to ignore Moriarty as much as possible if the truth is important.   

Thomas MacWood

Re: Was William Flynn a subscriber to The Evening Bulletin?
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2008, 11:36:44 PM »
Joe:

Another great find.

I just compared those to the Kittansett drawings and they do not look to be drawn by the same hand.


Anthony


Anthony
Interesting observation ~ these were not drawn by the same hand who drew the the Merion map in 1916 (Flynn).

I really love the drawing style of the artist. He drew most of Toomey & Flynn's plans, if not all of them. I have a good idea who he was...I believe his speciality was medicial art, drawing human figures, human systems, organs, cross sections, etc for medical books and publications. He was a very talented artist. I'm a little bit surprised Wayne & TE did not know this.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2008, 11:39:09 PM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re: Was William Flynn a subscriber to The Evening Bulletin?
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2008, 12:20:44 AM »
Who created the drawings and courses and holes of golf courses for newspapers while interesting is not exactly our ultimate interest as researchers even if it may be an interesting question. What is of interest to us is who created the drawings FOR golf courses that Flynn was involved in, that were used in design and construction.

A good example of this kind of thing is the drawing that appeared in a Philadelphia newspaper of Pine Valley with the on-going construction work. We know that it wasn't Colt because he was long gone from Pine Valley and he never returned there and the whole course drawing in the newspaper showed yardage changes that departed from Colt's hole by hole booklet and even the whole course drawing of Pine Valley which was probably done after Colt was back home in England. The interesting thing about that whole course drawing we bought off of EBay is the general layout seems to be from the same surveyor who drew the preconstruction topo map for Crump about two months before Colt came to Pine Valley.

The thing some today may forget is they didn't exactly have copy machines back in that day.  ;)

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Was William Flynn a subscriber to The Evening Bulletin?
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2008, 12:28:49 AM »
Joe:

Another great find.

I just compared those to the Kittansett drawings and they do not look to be drawn by the same hand.


Anthony


I have seen a copy of what is supposed to be a plan drawn by Flynn from the mid-20's and, while I am no expert on penmanship, it does not look too be in the same hand as either of the sets of drawings posted by Joe.

Wayne,

Did Flynn's daughter say that her father's skill as a draftsman dramatically improve from the mid-20's to 1930?

Anthony
Interesting observation ~ these were not drawn by the same hand who drew the the Merion map in 1916 (Flynn).

I really love the drawing style of the artist. He drew most of Toomey & Flynn's plans, if not all of them. I have a good idea who he was...I believe his speciality was medicial art, drawing human figures, human systems, organs, cross sections, etc for medical books and publications. He was a very talented artist. I'm a little bit surprised Wayne & TE did not know this.

Be careful Tom, if we stick with Wayne and TEPaul's stated methodology, then we must give this mystery artist full credit for every course he ever drew.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Was William Flynn a subscriber to The Evening Bulletin?
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2008, 12:36:08 AM »

We never stated that everything Flynn drew was a design of his, as Moriarty would have you believe.  We have a process in place and experience to determine what existed prior and post Flynn.  It is best to ignore Moriarty as much as possible if the truth is important.   

On the contrary, TEPaul stated this just the other day.   But don't worry, it is not the first time he has gotten your methodology wrong.   What exactly does TEPaul contribute to your collaboration, anyway?
« Last Edit: July 24, 2008, 12:38:56 AM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Re: Was William Flynn a subscriber to The Evening Bulletin?
« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2008, 12:57:49 AM »
Why bother?  ;)
« Last Edit: July 24, 2008, 01:00:43 AM by TEPaul »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Was William Flynn a subscriber to The Evening Bulletin?
« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2008, 12:59:12 AM »
Who created the drawings and courses and holes of golf courses for newspapers while interesting is not exactly our ultimate interest as researchers even if it may be an interesting question. What is of interest to us is who created the drawings FOR golf courses that Flynn was involved in, that were used in design and construction.

Has anyone else noticed a pattern to Wayne and TEPaul's approach to these matters?

- They make expert pronouncements on matters:  But they fail to offer any support for their pronouncements whatsoever.   
- Then it turns out that they might be wrong (as seems to happen whenever anyone actually checks up on any of their claims) they backtrack and claim they were ever really experts in the first place.   

Wow, those are cool drawings, but they do not appear to be Flynn's.

Mr. Morrison says they are done in Flynn's hand.

They don't match others supposedly in Flynn's hand.

Who created the drawings and courses and holes of golf courses for newspapers while interesting is not exactly our ultimate interest as researchers blah blah blah . . . .


Why pretend you are an expert if you are not?    Why try to mislead people by adopting a false aura of authority?  Why state things as fact that may not be?   And if ultimately you are wrong, why not just admit it instead of pretending you hadn't really, really meant what you had previously said?

Fortunately, this example went on only for a few posts.   With other larger issues, it has taken the better half of a decade for them to finally admit that they knew very little about that which they had long claimed expertise.  Either that or they knew it all along and were just trying to pull one over on us all. 


Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Was William Flynn a subscriber to The Evening Bulletin?
« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2008, 01:01:30 AM »
Duplicate
« Last Edit: July 24, 2008, 02:17:27 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Re: Was William Flynn a subscriber to The Evening Bulletin?
« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2008, 01:05:23 AM »
I admit it----everything I've ever said about William Flynn, Merion and Myopia is wrong.  I don't really know why I lied all these years. I suspect it has something to do with my relationship with my mother and I so much wanted to ask her about all of it but unfortunately she died before I had the chance.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Was William Flynn a subscriber to The Evening Bulletin?
« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2008, 01:14:28 AM »
I admit it----everything I've ever said about William Flynn, Merion and Myopia is wrong.  I don't really know why I lied all these years. I suspect it has something to do with my relationship with my mother and I so much wanted to ask her about all of it but unfortunately she died before I had the chance.

Much of what you have said has been wron, but I don't think you are lying all of the time.  You sometimes sincerely believe you are right.  You just let your conviction blind your ability to rationally weigh the facts.  It is very common for people to let the facts-be-damned when they really believe they are correct about something they think important.   We've even gone to war in such situations.

Don't get me wrong, you have done plenty of outright lying, but in your mind I am sure it was justified because you thought you would be proven correct on the overall issue.   Plus, you didnt think you would get caught.

For example, remember when you lied to us all by claiming that you and Wayne had definitive proof that Merion purchased the land for the course in 1909?  And Wayne stood by and said nothing while you lied?   You guys probably really believed that Merion did purchase the land in 1909, and you really, really hoped that the deed would prove it.   Trouble was neither of you could even read the deed, let alone understand it.   So yes, you flat out lied to all of us.  And Wayne was just as dishonest for silently letting you do his dirty work.  You lied about that for at least a year.    But it was about something you thought you would be proven correct about in in the long-run.  And since at the time you controlled all the source material, you probably figured you would never be found out. 

Don't get me wrong, it is still dishonest and manipulative, but one can see how it came about, and it really ought to be a lesson to all of us.   We shouldn't leave history to those that are entirely vested in coming up with a specific preordained conclusion.  The devil is in the details, and if you lie about the details it will catch up with you eventually.

« Last Edit: July 24, 2008, 01:34:54 AM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

wsmorrison

Re: Was William Flynn a subscriber to The Evening Bulletin?
« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2008, 03:25:33 AM »
I really love the drawing style of the artist. He drew most of Toomey & Flynn's plans, if not all of them. I have a good idea who he was...I believe his speciality was medicial art, drawing human figures, human systems, organs, cross sections, etc for medical books and publications. He was a very talented artist. I'm a little bit surprised Wayne & TE did not know this.


I am not in the least bit surprised you are wrong again.  You may have a good idea who he was, but I know for sure and I've known this for about 6 or 7 years now.  Just because you didn't know I knew something doesn't mean I didn't.  You and your protoge, Moriarty, make that same mistake over and over again with everyone but yourselves.  You guys would have a better fact to statement ratio if you hired a room full of monkeys with keyboards.  Not only would their output be more accurate, I'm sure it would be more entertaining as well.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Was William Flynn a subscriber to The Evening Bulletin?
« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2008, 05:04:48 AM »
Wayne,

Are you really chastising TM for not predicting what you would later claim to have known all along?    Is this all you've got?  Really?   Sad.

What's next? Ridiculing me for not having the super-secret mcc documents that you are screening from me?  Oh, I forgot . . .

Is anyone else curious why Wayne apparently told Anthony Pioppi that these "were done in Flynn's hand" but now he is apparently telling Tom MacWood that he has known for seven years that they were done by someone else

Perhaps Wayne should chastise himself for not knowing what he will later pretend be knows. 
« Last Edit: July 24, 2008, 05:19:17 AM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Thomas MacWood

Re: Was William Flynn a subscriber to The Evening Bulletin?
« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2008, 06:48:12 AM »
I don't doubt Wayne has known about him for the last several years. What I don't understand is why apparently he's been ignoring it and telling everyone Flynn drew them. It reminds me of when he told us he was aware of Barker's plan all along but for whatever reason swept it under the rug.

"I've always admired the artistic style of the fellow who produced these drawings and most of Flynn's plans."

We think Flynn really admired him too. So does Merion.  ::)

Do you think C.B. Macdonald and H.J. Whigam were given the appropriate credit they deserve for training that fellow to draw like that, Tom MacWalnut? Maybe Professor Moriarty should get into that fascinating subject in Part Two of his "Missing Faces of Merion."    ;)

TE obviously didn't know, which is illustrated in our exchange of a couple of weeks ago, but thats not really surprising. I'm certain there is quite bit about Flynn TE may not know. I'm curious if he's read the book.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2008, 10:06:45 AM by Tom MacWood »

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Was William Flynn a subscriber to The Evening Bulletin?
« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2008, 08:38:42 AM »
The fact ramains that the drawings are fantastic and a great find by Joe.

TEPaul

Re: Was William Flynn a subscriber to The Evening Bulletin?
« Reply #22 on: July 24, 2008, 09:17:08 AM »
David Moriarty:

We lied about a 1909 purchase of land by Merion? I don't think so. We misinterpreted it because we thought Horatio Gates Lloyd may have gained control of HDC at that point. He didn't gain control of that land (including taking it into his own name) until 1910.

As far as details we have them and you don't. You never did. And as we've produced them you've constantly avoided them and dismissed them because they contradict your half-cocked essay. Isn't that the more accurate assessment? You and MacWood aren't interested in the accurate details of Merion or Myopia anyway. It's pretty clear to see your only agenda is to prove us wrong on inconsequential minutae. Every post you write these days makes that clearer and clearer. Apparently you two are trying any possible way you can to show this site your good researchers. Your attempts to do that have become pathetic. Even I feel sorry for you at this point.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Was William Flynn a subscriber to The Evening Bulletin?
« Reply #23 on: July 24, 2008, 01:55:49 PM »
I don't doubt Wayne has known about him for the last several years. What I don't understand is why apparently he's been ignoring it and telling everyone Flynn drew them. It reminds me of when he told us he was aware of Barker's plan all along but for whatever reason swept it under the rug.

It reminds me of how they went on for years arguing that Macdonald's only contribution at Merion was to help Wilson plan for his overseas trip, when all the while they knew (yet concealed) that Macdonald was involved in the actual design process.   
__________________________________________________

The fact ramains that the drawings are fantastic and a great find by Joe.

Yes it was.   But don't you agree that it is rather unfortunate that we cannot get a straight answer about the drawings from our supposed Flynn expert?

________________________________________________

Joe Bausch, Anthony, Dan, whoever, 

How do you like being played for fools?   

Can any of you explain why Wayne has been so disingenuous about the artist behind these documents?

Is anybody at all curious about what else Wayne is withholding or misrepresenting?

_________________________________________________


David Moriarty:

We lied about a 1909 purchase of land by Merion? I don't think so. We misinterpreted it because we thought Horatio Gates Lloyd may have gained control of HDC at that point.

You make my point for me.   Because you believe you are correct on some broader issue, you have no problem fudging what you wrongly consider to be irrelevant little details.

You had no basis for believing that Lloyd controlled HDC at this point.  Just just wished it so.  And you had no basis for assuming the transaction had anything to do with Merion.  You just hoped it did.   And you did not have any idea what the deed meant, the land it involved, the parties, or even the nature of the transaction, but you really, really wanted it to be about Merion, so you just misinterpreted it to suit your needs.    But all this, while grossly incompetent and inexcusably negligent, was not the real dishonest part.  The lying part was in the presentation.   

- You falsely claimed that Wayne had unequivocally proven that Merion purchased the land in June of 1909.   
- You presented your hopes and wishes as if they were fact, without even bothering to verify the veracity of your claim
- You made matters worse by refusing to answer my questions about the deed, and by refusing to back up your claim in any way whatsoever.
- You then demanded that we all accept and embrace your representation as if it were proven and beyond question.

It is a neat little window into your entire approach to historical research: 

1.  Incompetent research and analysis,
2.  Followed by a dishonest representation of the underlying facts,
3.  Followed by a refusal to back up your claims with the actual source material,
4.  Followed by the demand that your claims be wholly accepted as gospel.

Sprinkle in lots of insults, personal attacks, and unsupported criticisms, and we have your entire methodology.   

This is exactly the approach the two of you are taking now with regard to the MCC documents.
Here is a little refresher on the dishonest manner in which way you presented your "misinterpretation," from over a year ago.


As far as details we have them and you don't. You never did. And as we've produced them you've constantly avoided them and dismissed them because they contradict your half-cocked essay. Isn't that the more accurate assessment?

You see, this is EXACTLY what I am talking about.   You have not produced anything.   All you have done is tell us how you (mis)interpret the MCC documents.   You haven't produced a damn thing to back up your claims.  Nothing whatsoever.  Yet you insist that we accept your (mis)intepretation as if it were gospel.  More than that you wield your unsupported (mis)interpretation to criticize me and my essay.   

This is exactly what you did over a year ago with the 1909 deed.   Misinterpreted the deed.  Dishonestly claimed you had unequivocal proof of a 1909 Merion purchase.  Refused to support your claim in any manner.   Chastised and ridiculed me for not accepting your misinterpretation as gospel.   


It's pretty clear to see your only agenda is to prove us wrong on inconsequential minutae. Every post you write these days makes that clearer and clearer. Apparently you two are trying any possible way you can to show this site your good researchers. Your attempts to do that have become pathetic. Even I feel sorry for you at this point.

My goal is to get to the truth about the history of Merion East and golf course architecture.  Unfortunately this entails peeling back layer after layer of incompetence, misrepresentation, and outright deception.   It is tedious, but given that you guys insist on keeping up your charade, I see no other avenue.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2008, 02:16:55 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Was William Flynn a subscriber to The Evening Bulletin?
« Reply #24 on: July 24, 2008, 04:09:47 PM »
Joe,

The artist of these pics looks like the same one for the Joe Dey series on great holes, no?

Here I've recalled one of the Golfing Waterloo series from 1931 by Joe Dey.  Contrast this to the one I've reposted from above just below it:



@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

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