The next great course

[Derek_Duncan]

Completely off topic, but speaking of wine reviews this has always been one of my favorites, also from Parker:

"An estate only needs to produce a handful of wines such as the 1961 Petrus to garner an international following. Not surprisingly, the 1961 Petrus was pure perfection. This fully mature wine possesses a port-like richness (reminiscent of the 1947 Petrus and 1947 Cheval Blanc). The color revealed considerable amber and garnet, but the wine is crammed with viscous, thick, over-ripe black-cherry, mocha-tinged fruit flavors. Extremely full-bodied, with huge amounts of glycerin and alcohol, this unctuously-textured, thick wine makes for an awesome mouthful. Imagine a Reese's Peanut Butter Cup laced with layers of coffee and cherry, and encased in a shell of Valrhona chocolate!"

Slurp!  And for a couple grand a bottle you can try some too.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

David
I would agree on both counts in comparing Shadow Creek and Lido. I'm not sure Tommy said it wasn't OK for either Fazio or Raynor to spend money - I didn't read that.

I'm curious, what do you experience as you drive up to or approach Shadow Creek for the first time? And for the first time visitor what is most impressive? If you were taken blind folded to the course where might you geuss you were?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

Throw Prairie Dunes and GCGC into the blindfold test too.

No way anyone guesses that they're in the middle of flat Kansas, or densely populated Long Island, but does that fact obsure or eradicate the wonderful golf experience and the architecture of Prairie Dunes, GCGC or Shadow Creek ?

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Pat
If you were familar with the topography of eastern Kansas or central Long Island, I don't think it would be a stretch to guess either one. I was shocked by how rolling the eastern part of Kansas was and Garden City doesn't possess terrain and flora out of character.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

For miles around Prairie Dunes, Kansas is as flat as a  pancake, and then mystically, this incredible terrain, Prairie Dunes, springs forth.

Just sit up on the third or 5th or 6th tees and look around and tell me if you see an elevation higher than an ant hill within sight, on a clear day.  It is a most unusual piece of property in the middle of nowhere.

If I blindfolded anyone who hadn't been there, and put them in the middle of the 7th Fairway at GCGC, No way they come within 100 miles of guessing where they are.

Perhaps outside influences, like the Concord coming in for a landing might tip them off.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Pat
I've traveled quite a bit in eastern Kansas and it really isn't flat. In fact there's a lot of land that is wild and interesting - and that would make for very good golf. You should check out a relief map of the area - the drive from McPhereson is disceptive - if you come in from other directions your impression would be different.

I'm guessing you could blind fold anyone and place them on just about any golf course and they wouldn't be able to tell where they were within 100 miles with few exceptions. But they'd know were they weren't.

What about the terrain and vegetation at GCGC is uncharacteristic or not native to the area?

[corey miller]

wondering if hutchison is considered eastern kansas? Maybe central? I do know the 45 minute drive from wichita to Prairie Dunes is 100 mile an hour driving flat. Did not see any elevation untill we were driving into the club.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Corey Miller,

When they tell you to drive until you see a silo, and then make a turn, it usually tells you something about the terrain.
I think if I had gunned it up to 150 mph I could have coasted there it was so flat.

Tom MacWood,

I drove to Hutchinson from Wichita and could have spotted Anna Nicole Smith from 50 miles if she was llying on her back somewhere between Witchita and Hutchinson.

I'm not so sure that you wouldn't know where you weren't, at
Prairie Dunes, GCGC and Shadow Creek.  All three could be considered deceptive.

Vegetation..... in Garden City ?  Surely you jest.

The barren or open look in every direction, from the 7th fairway would fool most, it is unusual, as is the view from several locations on the golf course.  Most comment, while playing the course, that they can't believe the course exists in the middle of densely populated Long Island.
It's that unusual or different looking and I think that is part of the appeal in playing it when you live in the Metro NY area, it's from another time warp.

If the view outside the boundaries were blocked, GCGC could easily pass for Kansas, and Prairie Dunes could easily pass for eastern Long Island.

[David Wigler]

Tom MacWood,

Great question.  If I had been blindfolded and placed on the first tee, my first guess would have been Colorado.  Snow capped peaks to all sides and evergreen trees.  My first impression was when the limo had to stop to let a heard of pheasants pass by.  It really boggles the mind!

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Corey & Pat
Here is a relief map of the area. I know everyone thinks Kansas is dead flat but.....then again who gives a crap. These are the kind of deep architectural discussions I enjoy engaging with you fellows. You guys are right its flat.

http://terraserver.homeadvisor.msn.com/image.asp?T=0&S=20&X=37&Y=58&Z=0&W=2

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

David
Another similarity between Lido and Shadow Creek, they were both major engineering feats. One difference appears to be 'fidelty to place'. From the photos of Lido I have seen, you'd be hard pressed to claim the course was created by the hand of man. You have the sea, you have the sanddunes, you have the channel and you have the golf course. The course was constructed of local materials and was designed to fit into the landscape. The same could be said of the other large budget projects of the day - Oyster Harbor, Yale, Banff Springs, Timber Point, et al.. For that reason, I think one is able to concentrate on the considerable golfing merits of these courses.

Shadow Creek on the other hand is an oasis in a flat baren desert, creating an unbelievable illusion. I don't think creating a golf course in this spot that was honest to the locality would have worked - for one thing there are really no interesting natural features in that environment to draw upon. Can you fault Fazio for creating an illusion - no not really, that illusion is considered by many the greatest course in the desert (I don't know I've not played it yet) - and ironically it has no desert qualities. Because the illusion is so spectacular I wonder if it overwelms the golfing qualities of the course - the illusion is the courses greatest attribute.

[RT (Guest)]

Another great course that springs to mind in this "where did it spring up from" mode is Ganton.  Flattish potato fields in a large central valley system, and then this rolling piece of faux links land.  I wondered over to the property line near no. 6 green peered over the fence and was just scratching my head in wonderment.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

Sitting on the 3rd, 5th or 6th tee, would you say the land around Prairie Dunes is flat ?

Have you ever driven from Hutchinson to Wichita, if so how would you describe the terrain on that drive ?  Hilly, or flat ?

Do you know of any golf courses that suffer by being next to an Ocean ??

Do you know of any golf courses that suffer by being in the middle of an arid, barren, desert flood plain ?

The difference in the two locations is ridiculously enormous, from every perspective.

Could the  golf course at Lido, once it was built, survive on nature, without man's help ?  Now, ask yourself the same question about Shadow Creek.

One course has a naturing environment, the other an extremely hostile environment that threatens its survivability, daily.

Perhaps Fazio could have built a course that would suit your desire for a natural setting by making the fairways out of concrete, the color of which could match the desert floor.  

Fazio's objective was not to make a course that looked like it was part of the natural setting/terrain, and he succeeded, despite the fact that it displeases you.

Does is say something when the course lept into the top 10 almost as soon as it was opened ?

Let's say that the raters over-reacted, or were unduely influenced by extraneous factors, and that it shouldn't be in the top 10.  If it was in the top 50 wouldn't that indicate that it is an good golf course.  Even if it was # 99, isn't that a indication of it's worth ?

If Ross, MacDonald, McKenzie, and AWT were retained by Wynn, to build his vision in the desert, for a $ 2,000,000 fee, do you think they would have created something that looks like the desert, or something that looks like Shadow Creek ?

My money is on Steve Wynn, and Shadow Creek.

[TEPaul]

Certainly The Lido (or Timber Point) and Shadow Creek are similar in category for their cost and also from the standpoint of the awesome scale of their design and engineering! As such I think all three of them are fascinating.

However, I'm very much in agreement with what I feel are the sentiments of Tom MacWood about a stark difference between The Lido (and Timber Point) in comparison to Shadow Creek as regards what was done on those three courses as to their natural sites!

Shadow Creek's course could not be more different from its natural site which ironically was probably Steve Wynn's point! Wynn is certainly the master of fantasy creation and in the case of Shadow Creek he obviously intended to create the ultimate fantasy in the desert! Call it an "Oasis Fantasy" or whatever but the finished product bears no resemblance whatsoever to the natural site. The contrast of the course to the natural site is so stark, in fact, the juxtaposition obviously becomes fascinating in itself!

Of course the next logical question is if you're going to build a golf course in the Nevada desert (which appears about as naturally unfriendly and unconducive to a golf course as is imaginable) what else could you really do but an "oasis" type course? Any alternative might in and of itself be an interesting thread!

But despite the enormous cost and engineering efforts at both The Lido and Timber Point what MacDonald/Raynor and Hugh Alison did on those two sites was no more than extensions of what the sites naturally looked like anyway!

I'm from Long Island and much of the South Shore of Long Island looked naturally like what both those architects created with those two courses!

The massive fill areas of both those courses were just sandy, beachy, windswept stretches which is the way the LI south shore coast line used to look like anyway--so what they engineered and created was very site natural--certainly in stark contrast to Shadow Creek.

I'm in no way whatsoever criticizing Shadow Creek for being what it is, just trying to draw a very stark contrast between the courses and their natural sites!

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Pat
I've driven from Wichita to Hutchinson, McPherson to Hutchinson, Hutchinson to Great Bend, Kansas City to Manhattan, Wichita to Salina, Topeka to Salina and Topeka to Wichita, hell I've even driven from Cassoday to Rocky Fork (80 miles of no man's land). And the great majority of the eastern half of the state undulating to hilly - look at the relief map. It's stupid for us to argue over this in attempt to claim Shadow Creek is not unique to its natural environment or that Prarie is similar in being totally alien. The comparison does not wash and I don't think many on this site give a crap about the geography of Kansas.

And that's a pretty strange reaction to my comments regarding Shadow Creek. I've never said any thing negative about Shadow Creek, the quality of the course or Fazio's involvement/fee. I never said I was displeased, I was only trying to illustrate the differences between Yale (as well as Banff, Lido & Timber Point) and Shadow Creek.

[brad_miller]

All thats needed is 300-400 arces of rolling sand dunes, on a sight that has wind, that is there in Hutchinson KS, along with a solid 8-9 month season.

[TEPaul]

Tom MacW:

Forget it! Pat's just not talking about the same thing you are! He still seems to be implying you're criticizing Wynn or Fazio somehow, although it certainly appears you're not.

If Pat's also asking the question; "What else could they have done out there in the Nevada desert?", he's got a point there but at the very least that's what he should be asking here if that's what he's driving at!

I don't think Pat's saying that Lido, Timber Point, Yale and Prarie Dunes as courses and designs are not site natural though--at least I hope he's not!

And I sure hope he's not  saying that Shadow Creek is site natural because it's about the farthest thing from that and I have no doubt that both Wynn and Fazio would the first to concur!

But the question remains; "What could be done out there in the Nevada desert that would be site natural?"

Again, that would be a good one for another thread! I could see something very low profile with maybe lots of low broad washes and such and somehow very browned down! Would that be interesting to golfers? That would be a good question! Probably not remotely as interesting to Wynn's clients as what he did, that's for sure!

But clearly that wasn't what Wynn had in mind--he had to have been envisioning a "fantasy in the desert", a real "oasis concept" which would create the exact "fantasy juxtaposition" that an oasis in the flat, arid desert is supposed to create.

Any oasis or "oasis mirage" was always supposed to create in spades everything that an arid desert is not, ever since man first got thirsty!!

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Nothing natural could be done unless you would be satisfied when it washed away every couple of months due to a flash flood.

If the flash flood zone wasn't a problem, you still couldn't build anything natural in such a hostile environment.

I've yet to see a desert course that looks natural, or fits in like it always belonged there, but perhaps my data base is limited.

Perhaps Fazio's next effort in Death Valley will help some better understand the difficulty in creating something natural in a super hostile environment.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

David, I think you might still be missing the point.

Still I will answer your question in hopes that you may answer mine. (See further below)

Tom MacWood once again has hit on everything about Lido. For Raynor, it was all about matching the course to the existing natural element in which it was being copied or modeled after, or in this case--built. Shadow Creek is entirely opposite. It was taking an environment that never existed and building into a climate and natural scheme which it doesn't match. Let see, the sand hills of Pinehurst or South Jersey in the flatlands of Southestern Nevada.....It just doesn't occur in any way, naturally.

The amazing thing about Las Vegas is that some pretty wise people came up with the idea that people (Mostly GI's) traveling to and from Southern California would have to stop and rest. Why not make a spot for which they could also be entertained and in some cases enlightened? (the house always wins) Viva Las Vegas! Or for a better term-the worlds most glamorous rest stop of all time.

It was artificially constructed, mass merchandized, and ultimately went from being an ultimate playground for adults to a destination for all of the family to enjoy.

Golf isn't a neccessity in Las Vegas, it almost isn't an activity even when considering the climate. One can visit Paris, New York, Camelot, ancient Rome, and even Golden Age Hollywood.  The fact is that it isn't REALLY those places, just an imitation and not a very good one at that. The Effiel tower is out of proportion and doesn't really paint a romantic view of the Seine, let alone the need for a rooler coaster to pass through its arches; Camelot is nothing more then a fake castle that looks like no castle I have ever seen in Yorkshire, England; The Great Sphinx and the Great Pyramid look like cartoons, and Hollywood, unlike the real Hollywood is too clean.  It is no different then going to every different "Land" (section of park) in Disneyland or Disneyworld. They even tried to rebuild some of the greatest holes in British Golf there, and it too is a failure.

(How many times have we read in golf books about the failure of trying to emulate links golf inland, when not taking into consideration the very nature of the site around it? It failed at the turn of the 20th century and it still fails at the turn of the 21st.)(Russell, I have not been to Gaunton, but I have seen many pictures and I think it would be safe to say that somewhere there it is a product of it's environment from so many years ago--things have changed, eh?)

This isn't to take away from the ability to construct something of merit when considering the science of construction. Lido for example. It was a huge stride for its times, and so was Shadow Creek. It's just one represented a product of it's environment--sandy and duney based along the seashore, and the other is mirage that just doesn't fit the picture which it is taken in--the sandhills of North Carolina or New Jersey with a perfectly-placed clubhouse adorned with gold bathroom fixtures. Yes, creating an enviroment for Quails to live in the desert heat is impressive, but what does it have to do with the theory of golf design?

Now if Tom Fazio had constructed something that represented the land in the EXISTING enviroment, which it could naturally compliment, that may have been something to really examine for all architectural students of all schools, both purist and modern, and I would surely revere him.

No matter what the cost.


Now, if you could answer my questions:

-What natural or existing (man-made or natural) features can/will be used to make this qualify as a GREAT sight? (the main ingredients to building a truely GREAT course)

-Should a lavish clubhouse complete with all of the service and immenities, as well as water-presentations that will undoubtedly be used to suffice the lack of interesting features, be another deciding factor of this supposed GREATNESS? (Mind you that when we talk of Lido, we talk of the golf course and not the lavish hotel which it was part of. do we ever talk of GREAT golf holes of architectural merit at Shadow Creek? Or do we only talk about the experience?)

-Are some of us really going to buy into the hype that will undoubtedly be part of this very commerical venture--creating a mass exodus to Sin City to experience it in the same regard as its predeccesor?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tommy Naccarato,

If an architect built an IDENTICAL replica of TOC in the desert in Las Vegas, even laying the course out to capture the prevailing wind conditions, would the course's architectual and strategic merits be diminished by it's location ?

[TEPaul]

Pat:

Yours is a very good question and of course really is THE question that some are trying to get at on this thread.

Clearly if someone could do an EXACT replica of TOC in the Nevada desert would that diminish the course's architectural and strategic merits? Well, clearly not exactly but it would probably diminish the golf course! Why? Simply because TOC in the Nevada desert is completely incongrous! That's most of what people like Tom MacW and TommyN are trying to say!

The reason for that is that the "nature" of the Nevada desert is nothing remotely like the linksland of Scotland! It has to do with the vast differences in the two sites, not the exact architecture. All they're trying to tell you is a course and its architecture that fits in with the look and "nature" of the site is generally the best way to go despite the vast differences around the world.

It's really no different than what Jones and MacKenzie did at ANGC. They intended in every way to pay tribute to and to imitate the "DESIGN PRINCIPLES" and "STRATEGIC PROBLEMS AND SOLUTIONS" of TOC in a fruit orchard in Atlanta Ga. Many say that's the very reason Jones partnered with MacKenzie and vice versa!

But did they try to make that fruit orchard look exactly like the TOC and the linksland of Scotland? Of course not! They built a golf course that was in harmony and congruent with its natural site--a fruit orchard in Georgia! They copied the design principles and probably similar problems and solutions and basic design concepts of TOC--they never attempted to make exact replicas of the holes of TOC and to make it look like the linksland of Scotland--that would have been completely incongruous in Georgia. The architecture was never supposed to look like TOC--just to play much like it in the context of various design principles!

But Shadow Creek's look in the Nevada desert IS completely incongruous! Frankly, Wynn obviously intended to do that! Call it the "oasis" look or concept or a "fantasy concept", whatever! Clearly the stark and vastly incongrous juxtaposition of the look of the Shadow Creek course in Nevada is appealing to some and that's what Wynn banked on--it's no real different from the entire theme of Las Vegas itself that Bugsy Siegal envisioned and created despite most everyone saying to him it would never work! But it did work and maybe even because of its incongruity or fantasy effect.

TommyN appears to be saying that an inconguous course like Shadow Creek basically shouldn't have been done there because it is so incongruous to the natural site. I'm not sure Tom MacWood is say that--he's just pointing out exactly how incongruous it is despite the fact that the architecture itself may be very good!

There really isn't much to argue about on this anymore. Some people obviously like that incongruity--they obviously like that stark juxtaposition of the look of a course that isn't remotely like its site! Call it the "oasis" or "fanatasy" concept or whatever--some like it--some don't! So be it!

Of course the larger and more interesting question remains--and should be no reflection at all on what Wynn and Fazio did at Shadow Creek--can a course be done in the Nevada desert that IS site natural and works well for golf and golfers. It's a very interesting question!

[A_Clay_Man]

One point that must be stated about SHadow Creek is that there is nothing natural in Sin city except for the that fact that nothing is natural. So with that premise, it has become natural to build something so unnatural.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Pat
How could you match all the humps and bumps many of which are the work of Mother Nature - could machines reproduce those features? How would you reproduce the vagueries and intensity of the ocean breezes? What about the turf and the vast differences in the micro-climate? How would you reproduce the atmosphere of the ancient religious and educational center - those quirky old buildings have to effect the backdrop, sightlines, wind and psyche?

They've tried to take the process for making Whisky and icluding most of the ingredents from Scotland to Japan among other countries and the disapointing result has been a very different tasting Whisky. They might be able to import the barley or the peat for drying the barley or use the same kinds of wood to mature the final product - but they could never match the unique qualities of the local water found near these Scottish distilieries (many which are distinct from one another), the micro-climate where the malt ferments producing its own characteristics, and possibly the significant factor of the air the casks breath, normally for at least ten years, many times 12, 15, 18 or 25 years. These casks inhale the local atmosphere, sometimes near the sea or even on the sea being washed by high seas giving them unique briny or seaweedy taste, or they might be inland maturing in warehouse that have a dirt floors and a damp atmosphere. Of all the spirits none is effected more by regionality than Whisky.  

[TEPaul]

Tom MacW:

You should probably lay off this topic with Pat--it should be pretty darn clear to Pat by this point what you're driving at.

But don't challenge people like Steve Wynn! It's clear he meant to do just what he did in the Nevada desert but if you challenge him to recreate TOC in Nevada in every single way with his dough and resolve who the hell knows what he might be able to pull off? Conceivably he could get rid of the mountains and shape an area as far as the eye could see into something that looked and smelled and tasted like the linksland of Scotland. As for the proximity of the sea--to him and the Faz--that would be a piece of cake--they just make it as far as the eye could see!

He could probably figure out a way to import the entire micro climate too, bring with it the mist and the rains and the lack of heat too.

Don't challenge him Tom, I wouldn't put anything past that man particularly if he decides to allocate billions instead of millions! He could probably even turn your town in Ohio into the Nevada desert if he wanted to!

Matter of fact he could probably bring the Nevada desert as far as the eye could see with him to your town, get the dozers going and take your town as far as the eye could see and truck it out to Nevada and recreate it. Don't challenge that man to attempt the improbable!

[David Wigler]

Tommy,

I will try to answer your questions as best I can.

If you asked the general populous to name the best "Desert" golf course, the most likely answer would be Troon North.  GD's rankings back this up.  If you asked GCA to name the best "Desert" golf course, the most likely answer would be Apache Stronghold or Talking Stick North.  Even you give Fazio credit for being a smart man and everyone gives Wynn credit for his brains and guts.  Fazio and Wynn knew Apache or Talking Stick would never work for their goal.  Remember the purpose of this course is to reward the highest rollers in the casino.  The art of golf course design is so far over their heads they cannot even see it.  The subtleties of a Talking Stick would be completely lost on them.  They would notice the awkward fence line though.  The course had to have visually striking appeal.  I think you will grant that.  Therefore, with a design like Talking Stick out, they were left with Troon.  Fazio and Wynn must also have known that the limitations of a very flat piece of land and the visual limitations of desert golf could never produce true greatness.  Let's examine the topography of the best courses - Sand Hills and Pine Valley (Sweeping Sand Dunes), Pacific Dunes, Cypress, Pebble (Seaside), Augusta (Manufactured beauty and manicured perfection).  Since 1 and 2 could not exist, they chose to go for 3.  A little off the topic, but Shooter and I just played a course that is hands down the second best desert course I have ever played.  It is called The Palms in Palm Springs.  It has one thing in common with Shadow Creek - The desert never comes into play.

Tommy - I do not know if you have been to Shadow.  The clubhouse is not understated but it certainly is nothing special.  If I did a top 20 clubhouses, Shadows would not even get honorable mention.  It neither ads nor takes away from the experience.  Shadow’s ranking has nothing to do with its clubhouse.  As for hype, our good friend The Armenian walked off Pacific Dunes and immediately posted that Ballybunion must step aside as the best seaside course in the world.  Hype is bad only if it is fake.  Shadow Creek is as deserving of its hype as Pacific Dunes.  Shadow was the best example of manufactured golf course design in 50 years (Since Lido).  If Wynn and Fazio produce another Shadow, it will deserve the hype.

Our basic disagreement is with your statement "-What natural or existing (man-made or natural) features can/will be used to make this qualify as a GREAT sight? (The main ingredients to building a truly GREAT course)."  I do not think that you have to use any natural features to build a great course.  Shadow is proof that a great course can be built on a marginal site.  For that matter, Augusta is also proof of this.  

My point in starting this post (I did not realize Fazio had been hired) was to see what a GCA'er might do with this plan.  Imagine $21M budget and a very blank canvass.  One caveat, your boss is telling you that there are only three acceptable options once the course opens.  The discussion must end with this course being 1,2, or 3 among public courses (Only allowed to be behind Pebble and Shadow).  If you want to build a seaside links, go build a huge lake and put a wave machine in it like at Mandalay Bay and have crashing surf.  If you want to place TOC in the desert, go do it (But it had better not come off cheesy like Royal Links).  You have all the land you want and an unlimited budget, go make perfection.  I would imagine those instructions were almost identical to Mac's at Cypress.  The difference is that his land was on the Monterey Peninsula.  I cannot wait to see the finished product!