The next great course

[Doug Sobieski (Guest)]

John:

The third course is The Dunes Club in New Buffalo, MI. I believe it's #74 on Golf Magazine's Top 100 list. It is a truly unique experience. It is a nine hole course.

Doug

[Bernard Brinkman]

Steve Wynn destroyed downtown LV with his Las Vegas Experience canopy.  The city fathers are already talking about tearing it down.  He is lucky he is almost blind so he doesn't have to look at all the monstrosities he has built with mob money.  He did build one nice, tricked out golf course, I'll give you that.

[David Wigler]

John,

As Doug said, Kaiser's other course is Dunes Club.  It is the only 9-hole course ever to make it into a top 100 list.  It would blow you away.  I have frequently heard it compared to Pine Valley in the way the land is (I have never played Pine, so I cannt comment further).

[John_D._Bernhardt]

Thanks guys, I had dinner with Mike one time and he spoke of an earlier club. I did not realize it had notoriety.

[David Wigler]

John,

I am married with children so I have no life anyway.  What are you doing on GCA at 10:00pm on a Saturday?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bernard Brinkman,

Why don't you have the balls to post under your own name ?

Have you played Shadow Creek ?

What about the course is "tricked out"

Will W,

I've read the alleged transcripts up to page 28.
Unnamed sources, and confidential sources leave doubt and
much of the info in the alleged report is non-Wynn related.

John L Smith has/is trying to sell a book for monetary gain.
His motives may be of the "for profit" type.

A libel suit has been filed by Wynn.

Let's see what the Judge rules before we make unsubstantiated allegations and condemn an individual who is probably responsible for a good deal of the success of Atlantic City and the rejuvenation of Las Vegas.

Did Howard Hughes, Kirkorian and other Corporate interests that transitioned Las Vegas know the same cast of characters ?

Are Wynn's companies public companies or private companies ?

[Will W]

that is why i used the word "patina" which means "an appearance that is derived from association" (if i may be pedantic).

i agree there are doubts as to the veracity of claims both pro and con regarding wynn, and the public will most likely never know.

as for the libel suit, which one?  wynn has filed five suits.  in january 2001, a 3.1 million verdict against the publisher of the book was overturned by the nevada supreme court, i have not read that the libel suit is headed to a second trial.

kirk kerkorian has to the best of my knowledge been relatively free of any inference of corruption.

public companies file papers with the SEC so they are free from corruption or malfeasance?  one has to only look in this week's newspaper headlines to see that that defense does not hold water.

i understand your concern about tarnishing someone's reputation; however, on this particular discussion board, i think that i made a very measured statement.  i am sorry if you disagree with me.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

I'm having trouble with the name of the topic of this post, "The next great course," and then more or less adding that it will have a budget of 20 million to make it as such. What a terrible precedence that the term GREAT be associated with how much money is spent to build it in comparison. Proof of this cn be seen at amny new courses by many name architects throughout the country.

With so much earthmoving and the like, on a pancake flat piece of property ISN'T what I would call a path to greatness or even mediocrity. While these words may seem harsh, knowing of my anti-Fazio bias, lets really look at the big picture here:

-What natural or existing (man-made or natural) features can/will be used to make this qualify as a GREAT sight? (the main ingredients to building a truely GREAT course)
-Should a lavish clubhouse complete with all of the service and immenities, as well as water-presentations that will undoubtedly be used to suffice the lack of interesting features, be another deciding factor of this supposed GREATNESS?
-Are some of us really going to buy into the hype that will undoubtedly be part of this very commerical venture--creating a mass exodus to Sin City to experience it in the same regard as its predeccesor?

I hope not.

[Mike_Cirba]

I agree with Tommy.

When was the last time that spending oodles of dinero turned out a "great" course?  

How many HUGE $$$ projects in recent years have turned out to be major duds, such as Cascata?

If a healthy expense account is a sign of potential greatness, shouldn't we all be swooning this week over Caves Valley?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Will W,

There is a difference in your use of the word corruption in your intitial posts, and the one that references corruption in public companies.

Your early reference was to corrupt organizations as in RICO, and organized crime, the last reference was a generalization, and reference to non-organized, or crime not associated with an organization.

There is a world of difference between the two.

The fact that Wynn won his libel suit is not inconsequential.
Why was the case reversed ?

My take is that anyone involved in the transition of Las Vegas from "the good old days" to the new corporate ownership, knew and did business in one form or another with the cast of characters listed.

The level of scrutiny, from various agencies, has made it difficult if not impossible to maintain a financial relationship with organized crime in NJ and NV.

Your original post was similar to the Senator, running for election in the south, who said, at a rally on the campaign trail, that his opponents sister was a thespian in New York.
The intent of that statement, and I feel the intent of your intitial post was to cutely taint Steve Wynn, without one shred of credible evidence.

Steve Wynn created a miracle in the desert, a genuine, quality golf course, and he should get credit for his accomplishment that can be substantiated and documented.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tommy Naccarato and Mike Cirba,

So, if we go back in time a little bit, would you have the same aversion to spending vast sums of money to build a great course at let's say..........YALE.

While I agree with you that throwing money into a golf course will not necessarily produce greatness, it can be a desired and required ingredient.  YALE and Shadow Creek would be two good examples.

Great land and a great architect would be the primary ingredients, but money, money to do the project correctly, shouldn't be overlooked.

[Paul_Turner]

John,

As Doug said, Kaiser's other course is Dunes Club.  It is the only 9-hole course ever to make it into a top 100 list.  It would blow you away.

The Royal Worlington 9 makes the UK and Ireland Top 100 in Golf World.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Pat
I think you've got it backwards. I don't see where anyone said they had an aversion to money being spent. Only that spending money does not automatically translate into a great golf course. There have been a number of huge budget jobs of late that have been disapointing and one of the reason is because they did not follow the examples set at YALE and Banff to mention a couple. I think many would call either of these courses contrived or artificial -- in fact you normally get discriptions like rugged and natural. If we are going to create raw designs like those two -- I say spend away!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

I thought Tommy Naccarato's first paragraph expressed that point of view.

YALE was the most expensive course ever built, by a long shot, at the time it was built.  Evidence, I thought, that large sums of money spent on a golf course could produce a great product.  Shadow Creek would be the modern day example.

Not many YALES have been built since the original, and I would imagine not many Shadow Creeks will be built either, but I'm sure many pretenders or borrowers will be built.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Pat
I think Tommy was pretty clear, he was not comfortable with money being the determiner in judging what be the next great golf course. As opposed to your reading that all large budget courses are automatically not great.

Was Yale more expensive than Banff ($1,000,000)? What about Lido or Timber Point or Oyster Harbors? I think they were a number of high budget jobs in the good old days.

[A_Clay_Man]

Interestingly enough I just got off the phone with the MGM/Mirage Properties and none of their holdings are owned by Steve Wynn. Not the Bellagio either.
 I was unaware that he was out of those props.

Perhaps thats why he can afford 2.5 bl for a new one.

IMHO a BIG mistake

[Lou Duran]

It goes without saying, that holding everything else equal, more money translates to better results.  That is not to say that a low budget =  marginal golf.  Wild Horse was built "turn-key" for $1.5MM and it is a fantastic course.  In comparison, the US Open driven "improvements" to Torrey Pines cost around $3.5MM, arguably, without making the course any better.

I had the opportunity this past Monday to walk Texas Tech's Red Raider course in Lubbock, and meet with Tom Doak and his chief design assistant, Jim Urbina.  The course will not be completed for another year, but it shows great promise.   It is a major departure from these gentlemen's reputation as pioneers in the "Minimalist" movement, as here they are moving in excess of a million CY of dirt, pouring miles of concrete for circuitous cart paths, painstakingly sculpturing 80+ sand bunkers (designed to control sand erosion in an extremely windy locale), and installing a $2.5MM wall-to-wall irrigation system with some 3,000 heads.  I would be surprised if the turn-key cost of the project does not exceed $10 MM.

Could Tom and Jim have designed Red Raider with Pacific Dunes's budget?   Not if they wanted to build anything of note.  Their client's objective was to build the premier collegiate facility, and given the site and climate they had to work with, the large budget is necessary.  If Tom and Jim are able to pull it off, and I think that Red Raider will become a substantive course, it will greatly enhance their already considerable reputations.  Pacific Dunes with its incomparable natural setting in contrast to Red Raider and the bleakness of the west Texas landscape- nice book ends.

Knowing how much the Emperor loves the comparatively low- budget Apache Stronghold and minimal disruption of the landscape, I hope that he doesn't lose respect for Doak & Co.  Personally, I think that Red Raider will demonstrate versatility and craftsmanship.  I just hope that the intended west Texas customers get it.  Making the concession on the cart paths (I think that Tom said that it was the first time that he designed circuitous paths), providing ample fairways, and generally utilizing a large 200 acre site will help.  With the wind though, and if maintained firm and fast, it could be a real hard course.  I can't wait until it opens.

[David Kelly]

A_Clay_Man,
Besides the money the only thing Wynn got to take with him from his properties was some of his art collection which he was allowed to buy back from MGM after their $6.7 billion acquisition of Mirage Resorts, Inc. in March of 2000. He has been displaying his art collection in what is left of the DI.

Patrick,
Wynn won his libel suit against Lyle Stuart the publisher of the John L. Smith book.  The suit was not against the book or its contents but against an advertisement that was used to promote the book.  That is the judgement that was later overturned. Wynn also filed suit against the author for the contents of the book but he later dropped that suit.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

I think Tommy Naccarato can speak for himself and doesn't need your personal interpretation of his posts to convey his thoughts.

[archie struthers]

Just like great artwork, the next great course may already be built, and only time will allow it to mature and take its rightful place in the hierarchy. Is Pacific Dunes already there? Most here would agree that Sand Hills is probably one of the top golf courses in the world. Is this a given? Is there obscure work overseas that we are not familiar with, I would guess there is.

I think the next great course that isn't built yet needs to combine some great short par fours and reward length with accuracy ( and I mean real accuracy). Many would not accept
the limitations some of our great classic courses ( ie taking driver out of players hands) from a new entry!

[David Wigler]

Emperor,

I have been on vacation so it has taken me a while to reply.  You and I are going to have to have a long argument over pasta and wine.  I could not disagree with you more.  Greatness has nothing to do with enhancing natural features.  It has nothing to do with money.  It has nothing to do with containment.  It has nothing to do with Tom Fazio or Tom Doak.  Greatness is defined simply by the quality of the finished product.  In music, I would argue that Pink Floyd, The Grateful Dead, Aerosmith, Bruce Springsteen and Jimmy Buffet are all great but each arrives there over a very different path.  

I have yet to speak to a single person who has ever played Shadow Creek and called it anything but great.  I have heard from people who have not played the course and take shots at it because they do not like Fazio.  Therefore, the Wynn/Fazio combination is one for one on the great scale.  The fact that Wynn is giving Fazio $21M (If it is a fact as John Gunning claims) gives me a very good feeling that they will produce greatness again.  I could care less how much it costs.  They do not want the muni golfer at their course any more than "Great" courses like NGLA, Cypress, Merion, Augusta, or Pine Valley want the muni golfer at their courses.  Why should this course be held to a different scale?  The great Armenian has told me about a course he figures would be the best course in America.  I think you have heard of it - Lido.  From what I understand, it would be completely manufactured.  Would you hate it as well?  Was it OK for Raynor but not for Fazio?  Plan on several bottles of wine before we reach a consensus.  Hope to see you soon.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

David
What do Lido and Shadow Creek have in common? And what seperates them?

Pat
I thought since it was OK for you interpret his words, that it might be OK for me - my bad.  

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Guys, I had Lido completely in mind when I was writing my post some days ago.

Money is not neccessarily the root of all evil, but it is a great tool to really confuse things as far as  GREAT/GOOD/MEDIOCRE/BAD.

Yes, David, it would probably take a bottle of Plump Jack 98' Private Reserve to really set things in motion--I'm a whore for that juice--and this wasn't in anyway a slam at the King of Hendersonville.

(All you wino's, please click on the link to Plump Jack to see what the description of a great wine should be like. Not unlike GREAT a golf course!)

"The 1998 Cabernet Sauvignon Reserve is one of the few 1998's that is actually better the the 1997. The 1998 displays greater texture, a sweeter and more expansive mid-palate than the 1997, in addition to a fatter, ripper finish. I don't know how they pulled this off in 1998, but certainly some of the best 1998 Cabernet Sauvignons have emerged from the Oakville corridor. The wine is full-bodied and beautifully scented with aromas of cassis, plums, cherries, minerals, and smoke. Surprisingly full bodied, with a plush texture in addition to layers of fruit and richness, it is a brilliant 1998 that can be drunk upon release or cellared 15-16 years (91-93 points)." -Robert Parker

[JakaB]

The love of wine does not cover the full spectrum of society like that of golf and pussy.   And true while money can buy the finest wines and attract a beautiful woman lets not forget that only golf can be enjoyed without pretense or under a veil of false bravado.

[David Wigler]

Tom MacWood,

My understanding of what Lido and Shadow Creek have in common is that they were both manufactured golf course built at great expense.  What separates them is obviously that Lido no longer exists and Shadow Creek does.

What I wanted Tommy to answer is whether it was OK for Raynor to completely manufacture a course, spending more money than anyone ever conceived and yet not OK for Fazio to do the same thing?