The next great course

« **on:** June 28, 2002, 02:12:56 PM »

I just read the preliminary details on Steve Wynn's new venture in Las Vegas. It appears that his new Casino will be the most expensive ever built with a price tag of $2.5 Billion. It is going where the current Desert Inn and DI golf course now sit. Wynn has a preliminary budget of $20 Million for the new golf course to replace the DI. I am assuming that Tom Fazio will be building the course but that was not in the press release. Does anyone know anything about the project? If Wynn can pull off another Shadow Creek, will he get the respect Kaiser or Kohler gets as a planner of world-class facilities?

« **Reply #1 on:** June 28, 2002, 02:30:10 PM »

David - As I understand it the course will be somewhere out in the desert and not near the hotel which will sit where the old DI and course used to be. there was a thread not too long ago about this very same subj.

« **Reply #2 on:** June 28, 2002, 02:30:25 PM »

Your question implies he doesn't have that stature already.

And, if you mean just the golf course? ...

NO

« **Reply #3 on:** June 28, 2002, 02:39:45 PM »

SPDB,

I knew that the course would be in the desert. The hotel is going to take up the entire golf course and current hotel. I was curious if anyone knew if Fazio got the job or any other details.

Adam,

I do not think that Wynn currently gets the respect that Kaiser or Kohler get. I am pleased to hear that you do. I do not feel that he deserves it yet at Kaiser has successfully developed 3 world class courses and Kohler has 2 plus 2 other very good ones. If Wynn pulls this off, I think he belongs in their class.

Mike Young,

You gave the single best answer I have ever heard, when asked what you would do building a golf course with a $20 Million budget. Feel free to repeat it here if you choose.

« **Reply #4 on:** June 28, 2002, 02:42:01 PM »

David:

Did the press release mention the location of the new course? I can't really imagine the new course being in the same location as the old Desert Inn because the value of that particular piece of property in relation to The Strip is too valuable for golf.

When you say can Wynn join the likes of Kaiser and Kohler I have to ask wasn't Wynn really ahead of his time in so many ways with the creation of Shadow Creek? The question is was golf really the main deal for Wynn or a driving force for his stance in the gam(bl)ing industry?

Thanks ...

P.S. For what it's worth -- Dennis Rider, the man behind the exciting / unique Wolf Creek at Paradise Canyon (Mesquite, NV) is in the planning process in building two new courses in Boulder City on land abutting Cascata. Given his success at WC it will be interesting to see the results.

« **Reply #5 on:** June 28, 2002, 02:45:30 PM »

Matt,

The plan is to build the course off property, like Shadow Creek. I am a huge Steve Wynn fan. I am glad to see that perhaps he is more respected than I thought.

« **Reply #6 on:** June 28, 2002, 02:46:13 PM »

Matt,

Is Rider planning on designing them both himself again?

« **Reply #7 on:** June 28, 2002, 02:47:40 PM »

from the sec filing from wynn resorts ltd.

"We intend to construct the new golf course on a 137-acre parcel of land located behind the hotel. Valvino acquired a portion of this parcel in connection with our purchase of the Desert Inn Resort & Casino and acquired the remainder when it purchased the residential lots located in the interior of, and some, but not all, of the lots around the former Desert Inn golf course. The residential lots, previously known as the Desert Inn Country Club Estates..."

doesn't sound like enough land. the sec filing says they are planning to solicit golf design bids summer of 2002.

as for wynn's reputation, he has probably pissed off a lot more people than mike keiser or herb kohler.

« **Reply #8 on:** June 28, 2002, 02:52:19 PM »

Will,

Thanks for the update. WOW!! $20,000,000 not including land acquisition and a site just off the strip. 137 acres is definitely compressed though. I never heard about Wynn and rumors of corruption. I read all about the Mississippi debacle but that was the only negative I knew off. To be honest, I am not even sure how Kaiser got his money. Kohler is clearly a terrific success story. I hope Wynn pulls this off.

« **Reply #9 on:** June 28, 2002, 02:54:22 PM »

here's the link to the s-1 filing if you're interested in slogging through it.

http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1174922/000091205702024407/a2081691zs-1.htm

« **Reply #10 on:** June 28, 2002, 02:59:13 PM »

Pulled out of the filing and posted for the benefit of all of the Golf Course Architects on this site:

"construction of the new golf course at a budgeted cost of approximately $21.5 million, excluding the cost of the land; we expect to solicit competitive bids in summer 2002 for construction of the new golf course and to award the construction contract in the third quarter of 2002; "

Let's see if a GCA guy can get it!

« **Reply #11 on:** June 28, 2002, 03:03:31 PM »

Pulled out of the filing and posted for the benefit of all of the Golf Course Architects on this site:

"construction of the new golf course at a budgeted cost of approximately $21.5 million, excluding the cost of the land; we expect to solicit competitive bids in summer 2002 for construction of the new golf course and to award the construction contract in the third quarter of 2002; "

Let's see if a GCA guy can get it!

« **Reply #12 on:** June 28, 2002, 03:04:02 PM »

Mike C:

Yes -- Dennis will be doing both. I had the pleasure in seeing Wolf Creek again back in late May and from what I gleaned from conversations with him and others the layout for both of these courses will clearly add much to the quality of golf in lower Nevada.

Both courses are immediately adjacent to Cascata but will not be designed to be literally "up'n down" the slope as Cascata is. I can't wait to see the follow-up to Wolf Creek given the wild nature of the land because you are talking about
S-O-L-I-D R-O-C-K !!!

Dennis exhibited a great deal of skill with Wolf Creek (I urge any GCA enthusiast who is not a died in the wool "classic" type to go play it!) although I wish the general turf conditions were as good as rival courses such as the new Wolf Course at Paiute Resort just north of Vegas which is the longest course in the state (over 7,600 yards with a steady diet of wind in the afternoon).

Hard to imagine but Vegas golf has literally jumped into the middle of things. With deep pockets from the casinos the envelope is clearly being pushed in a big way. But, I have to ask after Wynn (in my mind he's like Orson Wells when he did Citizen Kane) can he really go beyond that original success at SC?

Last item -- I also heard that Wynn is also pushing for a major golf project in the AC area to go with the new casino on the bay. Anyone hear anything on this?

« **Reply #13 on:** June 28, 2002, 03:41:43 PM »

Golf courses not withstanding, I believe Steve has a few on Herb and Mike. But I know little of Mike other than the Oregon Prop.'s and does Herb have more than Kohler?

Have you been to the Bellagio? It makes the American Club look like a guest house.

As far as World class perceptions, I think there might be some different definitions to almost every other person you'd ask.

« **Reply #14 on:** June 28, 2002, 07:43:29 PM »

To all I spoke with Dennis Wise of Fazio a few weeks ago and he told me that they are designing the new D.I. replacement course for Steve Wynn. I don't know exactly when it will start. The Desert Inn Golf Course closes for good at the end of this month. Eventhough it is going to be closed they are going to keep around four people to water/maintain the course, basically for looks. Fazio is also designing another course here in Las Vegas at Lake Las Vegas around 2003.

« **Reply #15 on:** June 28, 2002, 08:39:22 PM »

Will W,

I just want to make sure that your post, which could be considered an ambiguous post, is not interpreted the wrong way.

Steve Wynn has been scrutinized by the SEC, FBI, Nevada and New Jersey State Police, and the gaming authorities in both states.

Has any Federal, State, or local agency ever made an allegation that could taint Steve Wynn ?

Has any Federal, State, or local agency ever indicated that he was involved with corrupt individuals or organizations ?

Has he ever had his gaming licenses revoked or suspended ?

Steve Wynn is a gaming, entertainment, and public relations genius, why mention his name juxtaposed next to, or in the same sentence as the word corrupt ?

« **Reply #16 on:** June 28, 2002, 09:35:01 PM »

David, what was the 3rd course Kaiser built? I am not sure amount of money spent on a course in Vegas means more than promotional value. I am amazed this site gives the credit it does to Shadow Creek even thought it is obviously a great course. I will not see Winn as a golf visionary for sure. I will see him as a great gaming businessman.

« **Reply #17 on:** June 28, 2002, 10:58:02 PM »

You gotta love the way Wynn does business--clearly a man who knows how to make money talk.

Steve decided Tom Fazio is the man he wants to do Shadow Creek so he gets Tom out to his office in Vegas and explains the concept of SC to Tom. Apparently Tom isn't completely buying into this so Steve asks Tom what his fee is and apparently Tom tells him. So Steve writes a check doubling that fee and puts it in an unsealed envelope in front of Tom. Obviously Steve feels if Tom takes the check they're on.

Well Tom has gotta catch a plane so he takes off for the airport. After Tom leaves Steve's office Steve notices the check is still sitting on his desk. Tom is now on the plane, the engines are starting to hum and Tom gets a call from Steve telling him he forgot the check. Tom says; "Oh sorry but the plane is about to take off". Steve says not to worry, plane shuts down for about fifteen minutes, the doors reopen, a man steps onto the plane, hands Tom his check, exits plane, doors close, engines restart and away it goes and Shadow Creek is on!

« **Reply #18 on:** June 29, 2002, 05:47:45 AM »

Has anyone played the Donald's new course, Trump National in Westchester?

« **Reply #19 on:** June 29, 2002, 06:10:30 AM »

Brad:

Nope--haven't played it--haven't even seen it but more importantly I haven't even seen any photos of it!!! So I definitely can't comment. I'm keeping a totally open mind about it though except to say on the Doak Scale for names if it was just called Trump it would be a 1 and if it was just called National it would be a 1 but you put the two together and 1+1=0!

« **Reply #20 on:** June 29, 2002, 06:17:54 AM »

TP, Paul Turner has some pic's, calling PT. Tom, DT called this one of the Nation's Best, and the best course in Westchester, want to rethink those ratings? Since when do you use Doak numbers?

« **Reply #21 on:** June 29, 2002, 06:29:27 AM »

patrick,

allegations have been made. i refer you to:

John L. Smith's "Running Scared: The Life and Treacherous Times of Las Vegas Casino King Steve Wynn"

and

to the Scotland Yard's 1993 report on Steve Wynn. their findings were enough to deny him a license to own or operate a casino in the UK.

http://www.stevemiller4lasvegas.com/SteveWynn.html

will

« **Reply #22 on:** June 29, 2002, 06:41:56 AM »

correction: the Scotland Yard report dated from the early 1980's.

« **Reply #23 on:** June 29, 2002, 07:28:42 AM »

Brad:

Yeah, you're right, since when have I used a Doak scale number? So I retract completely what I said about Trump National's name as a 0 on the Doak Name Scale. Clearly Donald has done a name appeal study which shows that Trump National as a name probably attracts more golfers than any other conceivable name. No denying that on my part but I would only say I think the name is incredibly bad!

But I guess I'm just weird because you won't catch me in any casino or casino's course either I don't think! Not unless I happen to catch Osama bin Laden, then I would put him in a Hannibal Lecter cadge and put him right in the middle of America's most gaudy casino! I don't there's a torture on earth more effect with bin Laden than that--to be chained to the very pulse of the Great Satan, in fact!

« **Reply #24 on:** June 29, 2002, 12:10:54 PM »

So does anyone know if Mr. Wynn is going to build a golf course at his newiest resort venture in Macau, about a half hour from Hong Kong?

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