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Carl Rogers

Re: Herbert Leeds and what makes an architect tick
« Reply #25 on: July 23, 2008, 12:27:46 PM »
There really does need to be a zone of privacy and some real out of bounds.  The more prominent individuals on this site will propably not participate if their entire existance is open for view or exploitation.

In any creative field, you can not figure out what motivates the most inner workings of a persons heart, soul and mind. 

Let's concentrate on the context and results over time.

Thomas MacWood

Re: Herbert Leeds and what makes an architect tick
« Reply #26 on: July 23, 2008, 01:03:14 PM »
Peter
I apologize if I misunderstood you. I thought you were saying you would rather listen to Mozart than read a historical account of his life, and that only a genius historian could interest you in the exploration of the private-public relationship in his life or the lives of creative geniuses like Mozart (its my impression most historians, genius and non-genius, explore the private-public relationship of their subjects...maybe thats why IYO most biographic histories are not very well done, afterall there aren't too many historian/geniuses). And then as I understand it you said anything short of the genius historian's skill tends to produce bad history and bad psychoanalysis (huh? Your standards appear to be very high, obviously much higher than mine, perhaps it takes a genius to know a genius).

And then you went to say you enjoy Mozart best with a blank mind, apparently implying that someone interested golf architecture history may find it difficult to enjoy a round on a course designed by a historic golf architect. On further review you may not been trying to make that point at all, or any point as it relates to exploring the private-public lives of Leeds and other golf architects. Just that enjoy listening to Mozart with a blank mind. Sorry. Never mind.

Thomas MacWood

Re: Herbert Leeds and what makes an architect tick
« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2008, 01:18:18 PM »
There really does need to be a zone of privacy and some real out of bounds.  The more prominent individuals on this site will propably not participate if their entire existance is open for view or exploitation.

In any creative field, you can not figure out what motivates the most inner workings of a persons heart, soul and mind. 

Let's concentrate on the context and results over time.

Carl
We are discussing historic figures who are mostly dead.

Thats true, you don't know what is a persons heart or soul, but what does that have to do with documenting the facts surrounding the private life of a historic figure, and how it effected their career?

Would you rather we ignore the murder of Frank Lloyd Wright's wife? Afterall we have no idea what was in his heart after the event, but we do know how his career evolved afterward, both bad and good. In order to get a complete picture you must explore both private and public.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2008, 01:21:34 PM by Tom MacWood »

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Herbert Leeds and what makes an architect tick
« Reply #28 on: July 23, 2008, 01:19:10 PM »
It seems the disagreement here really is about the place and value of biography. I am sure we agree no historical biography can be written without offering a rich exploration of the life.

The Herculean task of the biographer is to recover the person, as a human being, from history. To put the flesh and bones back on him so that he may walk among us.

Why should the biographer set this as his goal? Because words and acts without the life do not make a man. We are reduced to a recounting of the "accomplishments" of a machine.

A plaster saint.

Adding the life to the work gives us a deeper appreciation for the work, that a human being did this.

Flaws don't weaken the man they make the man.

Pick your favorite figure from history and ask yourself why they are your favorite. Very likely it is their work that earned your respect but their humanity that earned your love.

Mark

TEPaul

Re: Herbert Leeds and what makes an architect tick
« Reply #29 on: July 23, 2008, 01:45:25 PM »
"TE
I don't believe in whitewashing these men's backgrounds and personalities, and I hope the same will be true when the USGA profiles these men. The influences and background of the creative genius has always been of interest to historians. For example what was about Van Gogh's background or make up that contributed to him becoming a great artist.

The questions we have with Leeds, first of all was he a great designer, and if he was, what were and who were his influences. How did he get to that point.

Bob Labbance wrote an interesting article on Leeds several years ago. According to the article at Brookline Leeds went from beginner to scratch golfer in a very short period under the tutelage of Willie Campbell. As we know not only was Campbell a great golfer, during his short life in the States he was also a prolific architect. In addition to his influence on Leeds the golfer, was he an influence on Leeds the would be golf architect?

In 1896 both Leeds and Campbell went from Brookline to Myopia, was that just a coincedence? Leeds is credited with laying out the second nine at Myopia in 1898. Was his mentor involved?"



Tom MacWood:

I don't believe in whitewashing these men's personalities and backgrounds either. I may even be more interested in the personalities and backgrounds of some of these men than you are and for a whole lot of reasons! ;)

You seem to want to concentrate on a few things about Leeds in your thread here;

1.  What or who influenced him in what he came to be as a very good golfer and architect?
2.  Was he a homosexual?

Personally, and for this particular website, I think #1 holds great interest but I rather doubt #2 does.  ;) For #2 perhaps you should contribute your research expertise to a gay website that analyzes the lives of creative men in the general world of art or architecture who were gay, and how their homosexuality in some way influenced their art and creativeness.

When it comes to Willie Campbell’s connection to Leeds and Leeds learning to play the game and his learning golf architecture from Willie Campbell (you are automatically suggesting Campbell was Leeds' "Mentor" in these two things! :) Can any of us automatically ASSUME THAT?), I’d love to see something from somewhere that documents that a little better--Bob Labbance's article notwithstanding. I don’t know that we can automatically ASSUME that Willie Campbell was the one who taught Leeds golf and architecture simply because they were  at TCC or even Myopia or simply because Tom MacWood automatically ASSUMES so! ;) Are you even sure Leeds learned golf quickly at TCC? How do you know he didn't learn it earlier? (the following post might shed more light on that! Edward Weeks, former Myopia historian says Leeds was self-taught).

I’d also like to see some solid documentation that Campbell was at Myopia as it looks to me like Myopia's archives and history do not mention that, although that history book mentions Robert White and the others who were there in that capacity through the years. On the other hand, maybe Myopia's archives does include that and Edwards Weeks just neglected to include it in the Myopia Centennial history book. If Campbell was indeed there, I certainly think it should be reflected in Myopia’s record.

But let me pose a question to you and see if perhaps we might agree on its relevance, since you and I seem to agree on just about nothing----eg let’s ASSUME that Willie Campbell did in fact teach Leeds how to play golf and let’s also ASSUME Willie Campbell taught him architecture, and let’s also assume, as you appear to be trying to imply on here, that Leeds was a homosexual. OK, so far? Are you still with me?? I only ask because you don't seem very good at reading or understanding some things, particularly the posts of people you would obviously rather avoid the questions of.  ;)

Do you think it’s safe to ASSUME (or perhaps even CONCLUDE, at this point) that Willie Campbell was also a homosexual? Well, never mind about that for now. Let's not assume that right now. Let's say he may not have been; do you think it’s safe to ALSO ASSUME that Herbert Leeds took up golf and architecture with the vengeance he clearly did because he was like, you know, kind of, sort of really hot for Willie Campbell?? I mean has your comprehensive “independent” research ;) established that Willie was like really cute in sort of a Scottish rural linksland way to an American middle-aged homosexual? Has your expert “independent” research ;) determined yet if Willie Campbell had like a real nice ass or something that just totally turned on homosexual Herbie Leeds?

If you haven’t even gotten that far yet on a thread subject like this one I’d say you’re not much of a researcher and you probably shouldn't have posted this thread at this point. There are simply too many unanswered questions!  :-\
« Last Edit: July 23, 2008, 01:58:39 PM by TEPaul »

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Herbert Leeds and what makes an architect tick
« Reply #30 on: July 23, 2008, 01:56:01 PM »
What a lame turn this thread has taken.
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

TEPaul

Re: Herbert Leeds and what makes an architect tick
« Reply #31 on: July 23, 2008, 02:04:08 PM »
Michael Dugger:

Posting a thread to basically imply that Myopia's Herbert Leeds was a homosexual was pretty lame to start with, don't you think? Or can you seriously connect homosexuality to golf course architecture somehow? ;)

When I made some posts about Devereaux Emmet and his gay architecture I was just joking and the only reason I mentioned it was because of that famous photo of Emmet in the white suit and funny hat where he looked like Tom Wolffe. I  have no idea if Emmet was gay, nor do I care. Even if he was I can't imagine what that had to do with his golf courses.

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Herbert Leeds and what makes an architect tick
« Reply #32 on: July 23, 2008, 02:07:01 PM »
Michael Dugger:

Posting a thread to basically imply that Myopia's Herbert Leeds was a homosexual was pretty lame to start with, don't you think? Or can you seriously connect homosexuality to golf course architecture somehow? ;)

When I made some posts about Devereaux Emmet and his gay architecture I was just joking and the only reason I mentioned it was because of that famous photo of Emmet in the white suit and funny hat where he looked like Tom Wolffe. I  have no idea if Emmet was gay, nor do I care. Even if he was I can't imagine what that had to do with his golf courses.

Yer barking up the entire wrong tree, Mr. Paul.

The unfortunate turn this thread has taken is YOU becoming involved in it.  All you do anymore is go around undermining and sniping Macwood.

Oddly, it seems to me the only person who has a problem with T Mac is yourself. :-\

   
 

What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Thomas MacWood

Re: Herbert Leeds and what makes an architect tick
« Reply #33 on: July 23, 2008, 02:14:00 PM »
It seems the disagreement here really is about the place and value of biography. I am sure we agree no historical biography can be written without offering a rich exploration of the life.

The Herculean task of the biographer is to recover the person, as a human being, from history. To put the flesh and bones back on him so that he may walk among us.

Why should the biographer set this as his goal? Because words and acts without the life do not make a man. We are reduced to a recounting of the "accomplishments" of a machine.

A plaster saint.

Adding the life to the work gives us a deeper appreciation for the work, that a human being did this.

Flaws don't weaken the man they make the man.

Pick your favorite figure from history and ask yourself why they are your favorite. Very likely it is their work that earned your respect but their humanity that earned your love.

Mark

Mark
I agree. I saw an interview with David McCullough a few months ago and there were a couple of things he said that stood out to me.

First, in choosing his subjects they must be interesting, human beings with human weaknesses, an entirely virtuous person is of no interest to him.

Second, he said historians often don't thoroughly explore the connectiveness of their subjects to other individuals and other influences - be they parents, siblings, friends, associates, rivals, lovers, etc. That there is no such thing as the self-made man.

Both of these ideas I think relate to Leeds. Leeds appears to be an interesting subject on many levels. And very little is known about his influences, and IMO those influences need to be explored further.

« Last Edit: July 23, 2008, 02:19:06 PM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re: Herbert Leeds and what makes an architect tick
« Reply #34 on: July 23, 2008, 02:16:45 PM »
Well Michael, that's your opinion and you're welcome to it. It's not my opinion, and it's not the opinion of a number of others on here. I think Tom MacWood needs constant monitoring and watching and questioning of the things he proposes, implies and seems to try to conclude on this website. In my opinion, and apparently in the opinions of a number of others, he is not exactly benefical to an accurate recording of golf architecture's history and that concerns some people. He's a bit more benefical than this David Moriarty but that isn't saying anything.

So, yes, I guess I will continue to question him if I think it's warranted. Discussions on here are not exactly just consensus directed you know. There will be and should be differences of opinion. If you don't like that, I'm sorry about that---too bad for you.

By the way, aren't you the same guy who once got all bent out of shape a few years ago because I questioned and criticized something Tom Doak did or said on here? I think that was you, and if so, where are you coming from exactly?  ;)


"Oddly, it seems to me the only person who has a problem with T Mac is yourself.  :-\"

No, unfortunately that's not even close.

« Last Edit: July 23, 2008, 02:20:54 PM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re: Herbert Leeds and what makes an architect tick
« Reply #35 on: July 23, 2008, 02:34:48 PM »
Tom MacWood:

I like that post #33 of yours. However, I would caution you against just assuming and stating on here that very little is known about Herbert Leeds and his personality, life and background. It would be more accurate for you to say, at this point, that very little may be known about him by you. Fortunately, that doesn't happen to be the case with some others.

You do have a very odd way of just constantly assuming that if not much is known about some subject you become interested BY YOU, that it must automatically mean not much is known about the subject at all by anyone. In the case of Leeds that isn't so.

The fact is you don't know much of anything about the history of Myopia and the people involved with it through the years. Obviously you've never even seen the club's history book or its records or probably even the club and course itself. That alone is an enormous gap in your understanding of Leeds or Myopia. The same thing was, and still is, the case with you and Merion---eg there is a ton about it you've never known, and still don't.

The other thing that both alarms and pretty much disgusts me is your recommendation on here a few days ago that I or the club should just throw out Leeds' diary and all that has been referred to from it with the club's records and history book and start all over again with the architectural history of the course.

Why is that Tom MacWood? Is it because YOU have now become interested in Myopia and Leeds and you think only YOU can tell it's story accurately? This isn't any differrent from how things started with Merion over five years ago----eg you find some article somewhere and you think you've made some great discovery noone knows about. The hilarious thing with Merion is its had those articles for probaby close to a century and the record and history of the club reflects that. Your problem is you wouldn't know that.

Man, I've heard of arrogance, self-possession and egoism, but that attitude of yours that the accurate architectural and personal histories of all these famous American courses and clubs are just waitng to be discovered by you pretty much takes the proverbial cake.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2008, 02:45:07 PM by TEPaul »

Carl Rogers

Re: Herbert Leeds and what makes an architect tick
« Reply #36 on: July 23, 2008, 03:04:04 PM »
Tom, Mark et al,

I want to use the word 'context' in its broadest possible definition (beyond site, environmental and topography) to include:
1. professional biography
2. what other professionals in the same field are doing at about the same time ... are there definable trends??? or counter trends??? does this project represent a departure from previous work?  if so, were the circumstances internally or externally stimulated??
3. $$$ (yes, form does follow financing)
4. technical options
5. client contraints and client pre-occupations
6. capablities of associates and workers
7. time
8. anymore some of you can think of

Imo, the personal life of FLW must be separated from the professional / creative because I have a sneaky suspicion that he was a hopeless ego-maniacal jerk.

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Herbert Leeds and what makes an architect tick
« Reply #37 on: July 23, 2008, 03:15:55 PM »
Philip -

I don't think your Tilly example is very relevant. Virtually all design commissions are based on personal relationships. Think Jones and MacKenzie, Tufts and Ross, and so on. That's not what I'm talking about.

Tom MacW -

The issue is delving into truly private matters (sex, health, depression, immediate family, suicides, drinking) and pretending you are doing so because it has some relevance to the person's artistic/public works.

I would humbly suggest that (a) people are unable to describe plausible causal links between the private with the public, and (b) the real reason they like to expose this stuff is for the easy headlines.

Like anyone else, I find that stuff fascinating. But no one should pretend he is digging it up because it gives any new insights into PVGC or the Clarinet Concerto or whatever.

In the end, it's biographical trivia. And for that reason care should be taken to balance the pain it might inflict with the little good it might do.

For example, what if Tom Doak is hiding some really juicy private matters? (I would like to think that's true.;D) What would we learn that's new about his architecture by disclosing them? OTOH, how much pain might that disclosure inflict on TD and his family?

Sometimes the balancing might come out differently. But that balancing is important to work through carefully. That's all I'm saying.

Bob


Thomas MacWood

Re: Herbert Leeds and what makes an architect tick
« Reply #38 on: July 23, 2008, 04:24:30 PM »
Bob
Crumps's suicide has no relevance to the story of his life? Good one. You don't see a plausible connection between his public life, trying (and failing) trying (and failing) to construct PV with his death? Should I have repeated the old story that he died from a tooth-ache?

The only reason I introduced Crump's suicide was for sensationalism? You believe I sensationalized his death for headlines? It sounds like you don't have much confidence in me.

Crump's death is just biographical trivia....it was not connected to public life, nor did it have an affect on the future events at PV? Leeds long time male companion being the president of Myopia Hunt is just biographical trivia...their relationship had no bearing on Leeds ability to affect Myopia's architecture? Wright's affair with his clients wife, their marriage and her subsequent murder is just biograpical trivia....those events didn't have profound effect on his career.

Like I said you appear to be from anticeptic school of history documenting. Not only will you not learn much going that route, you'll often get the story wrong.






TEPaul

Re: Herbert Leeds and what makes an architect tick
« Reply #39 on: July 23, 2008, 04:42:30 PM »
Now here is a bit of potentially interesting info when it comes to what may've influenced Herbert Leeds (made him tick) early on in golf and perhaps even golf architecture and may be a direct influence or even direct and accurate attribution on the first holes of Myopia in 1894 before Leeds belonged to the club or became involved in Myopia's architecture. These were the same original holes MacWood has been claiming Willie Campbell designed.

The Myopia centennial history book attributes the laying out of the original nine holes of Myopia (not exactly the very same so-called "Long Nine" that Leeds was responsible for improving and on which the 1898 U.S. Open was played) but the very first holes which had some greens and such that were not in the same place as some of their landforms have them today.

Myopia's history book attributes the laying out and design of those early rudimentary holes to three men who were members of Myopia. They are:

1. R.M (Bud) Appleton, the recently elected "Master of the Fox Hounds" at Myopia (don't forget for many years previous to golf at Myopia Hunt Club, the club was a polo and hunting club. Still today it's a golf club and polo club).

2. A man by the name (in the history book) of "Squire" Merrill.

3. A third man named A.P. Gardner.


To preface the history book slightly, the author, Edward Weeks (not exactly a slouch in writing as he was the Editor of Atlantic Monthly magazine), tells us that the first few rudimentary golf courses to appear in Boston in the early 1890s weren't even clubs---they were created on some of the big estates of some of those Boston Brahmans.

What were those early "estate" courses that Weeks says preceded the courses at the clubs by a few years and what did he have to say about them? Here it is from the Myopia centennial history book:




"In the early 1890s golf made its debut in New England, and importation which could best be afforded by the well-to-do. Newport fashioned the first course of nine holes and the first open championship in America was held there in 1895 with eleven entries---ten professionals and a single amateur. In Massachusetts, the game was played informally on private estates as early as 1892. At Appleton Farm in Ipswich, six holes were laid out for the entertainment of the family and guests, and Colonel Francis Appleton recalled that sheep cropped the fairways and were kept off the putting green by low wire netting such as enclosed a croquet lawn. At Moraine Farm on the shore of Whenham Lake, the Phillips family maintained a number of holes, as did the Hunnewells in Wellesley on their picturesque acres bordering the Charles River.
       Four Massachusetts courses emerged within a few months of each other and at an unbelievably low cost. Two were close to the sea: the Prides Golf Course (1893) consisting of nine flat, short holes, (long since abandoned), and Essex County Club (1893) at Manchester, six holes, very much more difficult. Further inland were the six holes of The Country Club, laid out in 1893 at a cost of fifty dollars and soon increased to nine holes, and the nine holes of the Myopia Hunt Club (1894). At both The Country Club and Myopia there was opposition, not to say derision, from the horse lovers: at Clyde Park idiots intent “on chasing a Quinine pill around a cow pasture,” as Finley Peter Dunne put it, were warned not to foul up the race course; at Hamilton (Myopia) they were not to interfere with the Hunt!
       It was fortunate that the man who suggested golf at Myopia was the newly elected Master of Fox Hounds, R.M. Appleton. “Bud” Appleton was the indispensable go-between, so popular he could placate the Hunt and practical enough not to minimize the difficulties. When the snows melted in the spring of 1894, Appleton, with two fellow members, “Squire” Merrill and A.P. Gardner, footed it over the Club acres, spotting the tees and pacing off the distance to provisional greens, probably marking them with pegs.
         Appleton and his partners reported to the executive committee that nine holes could be ready for play in three months, and the speed with which their recommendation was followed is evident in this terse entry in the Club records by Secretary S. Dacre Bush:

         “At a meeting of the Executive Committee March 1894 it was decided to build a golflinks on the Myopia grounds. Accordingly the ground was examined, and in opposition from a number of members because the ground was so rough, nine greens were sodded and cut, and play began June 1st, 1894. Members and associates soon began to show much interest in the game, and the first tournament was held June 18th , 1894. About twenty five entries. Won by Herbert Leeds of Boston who was scratch. Score first round 58; second round 54; Total 112. The second tournament held on July 4th , 1894. About twenty entries. Won by Herbert Leeds, scratch 52-61-113.”


That is the architectural attribution of the first nine holes of Myopia Hunt Club directly out of the club records including some of the words and recordings of the very people there at the club at that time. This is contemporaneous. And because it’s direct and contemporaneous, I sure do know I do not want to see somebody on here like Tom MacWood suggest it is all hyperbole or lies and should be thrown out (as he said about Leeds’ own diary) so the club can start again and revise their early architectural history about 115 years later because HE ;) has recently become interested Willie Campbell or even in the club and it primary architect, Herbert Leeds. The way he is coming at Myopia right now is the very same way he came at Merion and us over five years ago on this trumped up claim that Macdonald had been minimized by Merion and continues to be by some of us in Philadelphia. It was garbage then and it’s garbage now.

If the info on Willie Campbell designing the original nine rather than those three Myopia members as the club's history says, is real and valid (assuming the nature and origin of your Boston Globe information), I'm sure the club would love to know about it, Tom MacWood. If you want credit for providing the information, I have no problem at all with that. But as seems always the case as you try to prove this you also will be attempting, once again, with another major American golf course to prove those there at the club and from the club were lying somehow about what they recorded they did. Don't you think this tack of yours is getting just a bit tiresome and more than a little illogical and unbelievable??  ;)


By the way, Tom MacWood, who do you think the Appleton Farm was mentioned above that had one of the first golf courses in Massachusetts even before the clubs? It was A.M. Appleton's, the very same man from Myopia who became the Master of the Fox Hounds at Myopia in 1894 and who Myopia's history says laid out their first nine hole course with two member/friends 2-3 years later. Who do you think layed out the six hole course on the Appleton Farm, Willie Campbell? He hadn't come to America at that point but I'm sure you will avoid or dismiss that fact somehow! Maybe the time has come for you and David Moriarty to realize and understand that these so-called "amateur/sportsmen" back then who their clubs claim designed those early course really did do it themselves and they did not exactly have to depend on some "expert" that you constantly try to find to do it for them.

An historical point of trivia----"Appleton Farm" in Ipswich, Massachussets is considered to be the oldest farm in America still under the control of the same original family!
« Last Edit: July 23, 2008, 04:55:49 PM by TEPaul »

Thomas MacWood

Re: Herbert Leeds and what makes an architect tick
« Reply #40 on: July 23, 2008, 04:49:02 PM »
TE
Here are some unanswered questions surrounding Leeds and Myopia that perhaps you could shed some light on.


What year did Leeds assume controll of Myopia's golf course, and what does the club history say about James Parker?


We know Leeds was very active in yachting and enjoyed sports in general, what were his other interests?


Leeds made several trips to the UK. Where did he go?  Did his changes at Myopia coincide with these trips?


What do you know about Robert White's background and his association with Myopia?

Thomas MacWood

Re: Herbert Leeds and what makes an architect tick
« Reply #41 on: July 23, 2008, 04:59:12 PM »
TE
In 1894 The Country Club, Essex County and Myopia Hunt were all closely associated. It makes perfect sense that the first two would engage a world class expert on golf architecture (and arguably the best golfer in the world) to lay out their courses, while Myopia would instead turn to the master of the hounds. 

Do you think the powers-that-be at Myopia were idiots...they had gone to the dogs?
« Last Edit: July 23, 2008, 05:03:08 PM by Tom MacWood »

Thomas MacWood

Re: Herbert Leeds and what makes an architect tick
« Reply #42 on: July 23, 2008, 05:15:06 PM »
TE

You've made serveral references to Leed's lost scrapbook, in your last post you called it a diary. Was it a scrapbook or diary? It would seem to me those are two different animals. Do you know anyone who has seen it?

TEPaul

Re: Herbert Leeds and what makes an architect tick
« Reply #43 on: July 23, 2008, 05:28:57 PM »
"TE
In 1894 The Country Club, Essex County and Myopia Hunt were all closely associated. It makes perfect sense that the first two would engage a world class expert on golf architecture (and arguably the best golfer in the world) to lay out their courses, while Myopia would instead turn to the master of the hounds."


Tom:

I know that, Believe me. I don't need you to point that out  to me. I went to school there for years and a ton of those people from those clubs are my friends from way back and now. Those clubs still are remarkably close in this way, and interestingly its basically a lot of the same old names that go back for generations. I hestitate to mention this to you or on here because when I do you seem to automatically want to mock me for my own live and times and the people and places I've always known. Again, I don't need you to point these things out to you as I've known them all probably before you were even born. Maybe you forget sometimes, I'm not exactly young anymore.  ;)

On another note, in my opinion, you have just got to stop throwing around some of the statements you have on here recently as if they are accurate and factual such as H.H. Barker and Willie Campbell were considered to be world class experts on golf course architecture.  That just was not the case back then at that time. To understand that better you are just going to have to develop a much better understanding of that time and those people, as well as golf and architecture. It was a very different time than the time most of your sensibilities seem to exist in.  ;)

TEPaul

Re: Herbert Leeds and what makes an architect tick
« Reply #44 on: July 23, 2008, 05:45:47 PM »
"TE
You've made serveral references to Leed's lost scrapbook, in your last post you called it a diary. Was it a scrapbook or diary? It would seem to me those are two different animals. Do you know anyone who has seen it?"


Tom:

Sure I do, a lot of them. It was used by Weeks for his 1975 centennial history book. There may be up to 50 people still there who saw it and were aware of it was and said. It was basically an account by Leeds of his years at Myopia and with the golf course. I'll ask around this week. The guy I play with was familiar with it--he's one of the club's historians. Again, you probably forget how old my friends and I are. I graduated from St. Mark's School up there in 1963 after spending six years there. A ton of the people you read about connected with those clubs back then when they were created are the very same families I went to school with---eg Appleton, Gardner, Bacon, Winthrop, Weld, Hall, Merrill, Hunnewell etc.

To be honest, I've never understood why you don't value my experiences and connections with some of these clubs and the generational people involved in and with them rather than basically trying to mock me constantly whenever I mention them. I just can't understand how anyone could possibly think they know some clubs and courses better than people who have been around them all their lives and the people involved them them, particularly when someone (you in this case) has never even been to these places.

This is just amazing to me.

I'm actually beginning to wonder if perhaps this is all about jealousy on your part and this is just your strange way of expressing it. It does not have to be this way, Tom.

But just always know I will never let some of your speculations and conjecture about some of these places ride on here when I know damn well they are just not true.


Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Herbert Leeds and what makes an architect tick
« Reply #45 on: July 23, 2008, 07:24:30 PM »
To be honest, I've never understood why you don't value my experiences and connections with some of these clubs and the generational people involved in and with them rather than basically trying to mock me constantly whenever I mention them. I just can't understand how anyone could possibly think they know some clubs and courses better than people who have been around them all their lives and the people involved them them, particularly when someone (you in this case) has never even been to these places.

Uh, maybe it's because you are a jerk towards him all the time? 

Just a thought  :-\

Bury the hatchet, TE.  Deep breath....ahhh, let it go. 

Your problem with Macwood is a personal one, methinks, and every single word you spout in his direction is a rude one.  I wouldn't want to "work" with you either if you treated me like that.......
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Thomas MacWood

Re: Herbert Leeds and what makes an architect tick
« Reply #46 on: July 23, 2008, 07:42:26 PM »
"TE
In 1894 The Country Club, Essex County and Myopia Hunt were all closely associated. It makes perfect sense that the first two would engage a world class expert on golf architecture (and arguably the best golfer in the world) to lay out their courses, while Myopia would instead turn to the master of the hounds."


Tom:

I know that, Believe me. I don't need you to point that out  to me. I went to school there for years and a ton of those people from those clubs are my friends from way back and now. Those clubs still are remarkably close in this way, and interestingly its basically a lot of the same old names that go back for generations. I hestitate to mention this to you or on here because when I do you seem to automatically want to mock me for my own live and times and the people and places I've always known. Again, I don't need you to point these things out to you as I've known them all probably before you were even born. Maybe you forget sometimes, I'm not exactly young anymore.  ;)

On another note, in my opinion, you have just got to stop throwing around some of the statements you have on here recently as if they are accurate and factual such as H.H. Barker and Willie Campbell were considered to be world class experts on golf course architecture.  That just was not the case back then at that time. To understand that better you are just going to have to develop a much better understanding of that time and those people, as well as golf and architecture. It was a very different time than the time most of your sensibilities seem to exist in.  ;)


TE
While your personal history in Boston is fascinating it really doesn't help us determine what happened in the 1890s. Campbell designed the first nine at Ranfurly Castle in 1889. In 1891 he laid out Machirie on Islay, utillizing dramatic dunes. That same year he designed Cowal, Rothesay and Kilmacolm in western Scotland, and in 1893 the first nine at Seascale. He was an accomplished architect in 1894 when he came over; you would be hard pressed to name someone in the States with better resume. To give you idea how big a deal it was, his arrival was reported nationally. It was quite a coup having him come to Boston. Myopia, Essex County and Brookline were obviously thrilled to have his services at their disposal, and they took advantage.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2008, 08:37:09 PM by Tom MacWood »

Thomas MacWood

Re: Herbert Leeds and what makes an architect tick
« Reply #47 on: July 23, 2008, 07:44:00 PM »
"TE
You've made serveral references to Leed's lost scrapbook, in your last post you called it a diary. Was it a scrapbook or diary? It would seem to me those are two different animals. Do you know anyone who has seen it?"


Tom:

Sure I do, a lot of them. It was used by Weeks for his 1975 centennial history book. There may be up to 50 people still there who saw it and were aware of it was and said. It was basically an account by Leeds of his years at Myopia and with the golf course. I'll ask around this week. The guy I play with was familiar with it--he's one of the club's historians. Again, you probably forget how old my friends and I are. I graduated from St. Mark's School up there in 1963 after spending six years there. A ton of the people you read about connected with those clubs back then when they were created are the very same families I went to school with---eg Appleton, Gardner, Bacon, Winthrop, Weld, Hall, Merrill, Hunnewell etc.

To be honest, I've never understood why you don't value my experiences and connections with some of these clubs and the generational people involved in and with them rather than basically trying to mock me constantly whenever I mention them. I just can't understand how anyone could possibly think they know some clubs and courses better than people who have been around them all their lives and the people involved them them, particularly when someone (you in this case) has never even been to these places.

This is just amazing to me.

I'm actually beginning to wonder if perhaps this is all about jealousy on your part and this is just your strange way of expressing it. It does not have to be this way, Tom.

But just always know I will never let some of your speculations and conjecture about some of these places ride on here when I know damn well they are just not true.



TE
Does Weeks refer to it as a scrapbook or a diary?
« Last Edit: July 23, 2008, 07:46:57 PM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re: Herbert Leeds and what makes an architect tick
« Reply #48 on: July 23, 2008, 09:43:39 PM »
"TE
Does Weeks refer to it as a scrapbook or a diary?"


It's essentially referred to as a chronicle of Herbert Leeds' life and times with approximately 30 years of involvment with the course and club. I don't believe it's a candidate for something that should be scraped as you suggested the other day, so somebody from somewhere else (YOU) can have the opportunity to reinterpret the club's architectural history on some Internet website. Apparently that's the way you see it which seriously undermines the entire credibility of this website, in my opinion, if this website, its administrators and participants don't actively disabuse you of that preposterous notion.

Thomas MacWood

Re: Herbert Leeds and what makes an architect tick
« Reply #49 on: July 23, 2008, 09:54:47 PM »
It's essentially referred to as a chronicle of Herbert Leeds' life and times with approximately 30 years of involvment with the course and club. I don't believe it's a candidate for something that should be scraped as you suggested the other day, so somebody from somewhere else (YOU) can have the opportunity to reinterpret the club's architectural history on some Internet website. Apparently that's the way you see it which seriously undermines the entire credibility of this website, in my opinion, if this website, its administrators and participants don't actively disabuse you of that preposterous notion.

TE
I'm not sure why you've been hesitant to answer the question, but I got my answer in Bob Labbance's article, Weeks referred to it as a 'scrapbook'.

What year did Leeds assume controll of Myopia's golf course, and what does the club history say about James Parker?
« Last Edit: July 23, 2008, 10:00:28 PM by Tom MacWood »

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