What Open course has the least # of great holes?

[Ran Morrissett]

To me, The Old Course leads the way with nearly half its holes falling somewhere in - or very close - to the great basket (2nd, 5th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 14th, 16th, and 17th). I easily term the 1st and 18th as great too (or at least ideal as opening and closing holes) but their help isn’t required so I didn’t include them.

Royal St. George’s likely comes next led by such holes as the 4th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 13th, 14th, and 15th. Lytham, despite its surrounds, is chock full too of holes with great character.

Hoylake might be one off that pace. Carnoustie’s 6th, 14th, 15th and 17th put it in good standing.

Troon, which some people (not me) love to hate, has at least the 7th and 8th. Based on their crumpled fairways and interesting greens I would term the 13th and 15th at Troon as great links holes as well.

Muirfield, though far from being a favorite, has several, most notably the 13th and 17th in my book. As we all know, North Berwick down the road has many more  but that’s not the point!

Maybe it’s Turnberry? Its glamorous setting makes it hard to focus solely on the merits of its holes, but I find them to be wanting. The 4th and 10th yes, but what else? Maybe the 8th? The 9th is dramatic but is that domed fairway really good golf? Maybe, maybe not. Do the 15th and/or 16th count?

Then there is Birkdale – which exactly are its great holes? I haven’t been there since 1991 and they have done a lot of work there since. Ben Crenshaw told me he is a great fan of the character that they have built into some of the greens and their surrounds. Unable to comment, all I know is what I see on television. I don’t call the 11th at Troon great so I don’t term the 6th at Birkdale as great – both are super hard but so what? Neither has the width to fully capitalize on much playing strategy. The hit-it-or-else 12th seems to be the one standout hole and reminds me of the nervousness that the 13th at Muirfield promotes. The 11th at Birkdale is pretty but is there much strategy there? Other candidates include the 1st, 2nd, 13th, 15th and 16th but their flat fairways diminish their cause.

My conclusion is that Birkdale probably has the fewest - what’s your own tally look like?

Cheers,

[Ben Stephens]

Ran,

Having played Hoylake, Lytham, Turnberry and Carnoustie as well as walking around St Andrews many times (Dunhill Cup and Links Trophy competitions) and Birkdale. I would have thought that Hoylake and Lytham had the fewest number of great holes out of this lot.

I must admit that I am a big fan of Carnoustie - as it is tough + fair and probably has the best turf of any course on the rota. I have even drove my dad and my mate James on the verge of madness due to me raving on about the Tayside links.

The great holes of each course in my opinion.

Hoylake in normal hole order - 3rd, 8th, 11th +12th
Lytham - 3rd, 7th, 8th, 15th, 17th + 18th
Turnberry - 4th, 5th, 8th, 10th, 15th
Carnoustie - 2nd, 5th, 6th, 10th, 15th, 16th, 17th
Birkdale - 1st, 6th, 9th, 10th, 16th, 17th (even though there is a new green)

I probably agree with your choice of holes at St Andrews but question whether 13 and 16th are great holes

The fairways at Birkdale has gradual slopes rising up and down in various places. Having been at the course yesterday it has made me wonder if the Hawtrees did actually flatten it and pushed the excess soil back into the dunes. Is Birkdale the original stadium course? I had brilliant views of the players on the dune slopes. For the spectator Birkdale is probably the best course on the Open rota - I reckon there were more than 200,000 this week. The distances from the green to the next tee on some holes were very big!

[tlavin]

This is surely outside of my comfort zone, but Hoylake seems an appropriate choice.

[Jay Flemma]

My thoughts were that Birkdale is essentially a target golf course on linksland...   Certainly not as much strategy as TOC or Muirfield

[Sean_A]

Either I don't hold most of the Open courses in that high of regard or others throw around the term great in a far too willy nilly way for my liking. 

Carnoustie: I have no love for the place, but I think #s 2, 3 & 6 are great holes.

TOC: #s 11, 14, 16 & 17 - perhaps the greatest nine holes in championship golf

Muirfield: #s 13 & 17

Troon: #s 6 & 8

Turnberry: #s 5, 8 & 11

Lytham: #s 8 & 17

Hoylake: #s 11 & 12 though I am very partial to 8 & 9 as well.  Especially #9 as it is about as good as a punchbowl hole can be.

Birkdale: #1 - though I must admit the course has changed a fair amount since my last visit

Sandwich: #s 4, 5, 12 & 13

For me, Birkdale takes the prize for fewest amount of great holes, but it isn't a clear cut decision.

Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

It has been a long time since I played Royal Birkdale and I couldn't remember what it was I didn't like about it the first couple of times around.  It was more than just them having bulldozed some of the contour out of the fairways, but I couldn't remember what.

Now I remember.  It's got so many doglegs that go against the prevailing winds.

Everybody asks me why Pacific Dunes has so many holes that play north and south, along the line of the prevailing wind.  THIS WEEK SHOWED WHY.  Even the best players in the world are missing 2/3 of the fairways in a strong crosswind.  Nobody who is reading this post would have broken 95 in those conditions. 

Doglegs and wind WILL stop the best players in the world, but we should be doing more than just trying to stop them.

[Sean_A]

It has been a long time since I played Royal Birkdale and I couldn't remember what it was I didn't like about it the first couple of times around.  It was more than just them having bulldozed some of the contour out of the fairways, but I couldn't remember what.

Now I remember.  It's got so many doglegs that go against the prevailing winds.

Everybody asks me why Pacific Dunes has so many holes that play north and south, along the line of the prevailing wind.  THIS WEEK SHOWED WHY.  Even the best players in the world are missing 2/3 of the fairways in a strong crosswind.  Nobody who is reading this post would have broken 95 in those conditions. 

Doglegs and wind WILL stop the best players in the world, but we should be doing more than just trying to stop them.

Tom

You are right.  Birkdale has an inordinate amount of cross wind holes par 4 and 5s - some of which are doglegs.  There must be at least 10, maybe more.  The par 3s often play down or up wind. Mind you, I think the wind was a bit odd this week, more out of the north for this time of year.  However, it only means that the wind would often be coming from the oppositish side.  I saw a lot of aiming into the crowds to keep balls in play with woods.  All this said, its nothing that a bit widening of the fairways can't resolve.   

Ciao 

[Doug Siebert]

Sean, I think what Tom is talking about is the crosswinds into the doglegs (so that you are almost directly into the wind on the approach)  A straight hole in a strong crosswind isn't a big problem, your fairway is effectively narrowed but you can play pretty much the same shot whether you choose a 4 iron or a driver off the tee.  You can't work the ball enough to play the shot straight so you choose how much you think the wind will affect it, aim there, and let the wind blow it back to the fairway.

However, if you are playing a dogleg with a strong wind blowing into the dogleg where you don't have the option to work the ball in the direction of the dogleg due to the strong wind, your options become 1) play to the corner of the dogleg with whatever club gets you there (Harrington strategy) or 2) aim your driver far from the corner of the dogleg, perhaps at the green or even further afield, to account for the wind, and attempt to gauge your line so that your carry distance carries the dogleg but doesn't carry or run through it on the other side (Norman strategy, i.e., playing target golf on a links course)

If your driver will carry 280 and the corner of the dogleg is at 220, which it was on some holes in the Open, especially the ones playing the winter tees, you have to figure out what the correct line is for a driver carrying 280 to land in fairway and aim so that the wind will blow your ball there.  If you mishit a bit and only carry 265, you are in the soup.  If you miss your line a bit inside the dogleg you are in the soup.  If you miss your line a bit outside the dogleg you go across the fairway and you are in the soup.

I'm trying to think of a good example of a hole on your side of the pond that I've played which illustrates this but I'm drawing a blank.  Perhaps Tom is right, most of the courses over there are designed to avoid this, so you wouldn't see it unless an odd wind is blowing.  But just for the sake of creating an example, think of Ballybunion's 17th, with its sharp dogleg left.  Normally its dead into the wind so its not a problem, if you want to carry a bit of the corner the wind will help shape the ball for you.  But if the wind was blowing 35 mph left to right from the tee and you wanted to hit driver so you aren't left with a long iron into the wind for your second, how do you play it?  You'd have to aim at something like a 25-30 degree angle left to let the wind blow the ball back to land at a place that's maybe 30-40 yards left of the fairway center dogleg corner, assuming you played a drive that's typically a 280 yard carry in windless conditions.  That line would take one hell of a lot of guts because its 100% certain to be a lost ball if you put it in the rough, because that's some awful long grass and the landing area is completely hidden by the dunes!  Well, maybe if I had a gallery to help me find it I might give it a go

[Philippe Binette]

I don't see what's wrong with crosswind.... but cross wind and 30 yards wide fairways doesn't help

[Mark_F]

I am with Ben Stephens - I would count the 2nd, 5th and 10th holes at Carnoustie as great, and add in the 3rd as well.


I also struggle to see what is so great about 5 or 13 on TOC. 

[Ben Stephens]

Tom,

I disagree with you comments about crosswinds. The great links courses are the ones with holes in different directions - other than Birkdale, Hoylake, Lytham, Hunstanton, Brancaster, Muirfield, Carnoustie to name a few. The whole point is to think more imaginative with the shot. I always try to play play a draw in a strong left to right wind.

Birkdale has vastly improved since 1991 when the course was playing a lot easier in terms of fairway widths, positioning of the bunkers which were out of play and slow bumpy greens that they rebuilt all of them which 1st came to play in 1998. The bunkering was great that some players played an iron off the tee. It was one of the best presented course for an Open despite the wet weather we have had in the UK in the last few months.

I though 9 and 10 were the best holes on Saturday. To be fair many players were playing the wrong shot option off the tee on 10 which had the widest fairway of any hole! Camilo Villegas had a near shank on Saturday which went wildly right and Justin Rose had a bad hooked shot. Poulter and Harrington both had cracking tee shots with a 1 or 2 iron. Johnny Miller hit a 1 iron 49 times to win at Birkdale in 1976 to keep the ball in play!!

I would say Royal Birkdale is the no. 1 course in England for the Open.

1-Birkdale, 2-Sandwich, 3-Hoylake and 4-Lytham.

I believe that I would have broken 90 there with the strong winds if I kept my mind together!

[Paul_Daley]

Ran:

Turnberry has, in my opinion, the least amount of great holes on the Open rota. 

[Matt MacIver]

Having played the Scottish rota but not the English courses I would say that Troon has the fewest, with # 7, 8, 10 and maybe 11 getting my votes.   

Thought I read that at Birkdale the holes were all routed through the dunes as opposed to over, leading to fewer blind shots but having lots of alleys for wind to navigate through. 

[Sean_A]

Ran

I am curious as to why you ask the question.  Do you believe it reflects the quality of the course?  Lately, I have started to think that so long as there are a few great holes on a course, the true of measure of the course is not how many great holes there are, but how many duds there are.  For instance, I think Birkdale has the fewest number of great holes in the rota, but I still believe it is better than Turnberry, Lytham, Troon, Carnoustie and possibly Hoylake (tough call).

Ciao

[Mark_F]

Lately, I have started to think that so long as there are a few great holes on a course, the true of measure of the course is not how many great holes there are, but how many duds there are.  For instance, I think Birkdale has the fewest number of great holes in the rota, but I still believe it is better than Turnberry, Lytham, Troon, Carnoustie and possibly Hoylake

Interesting, Sean. 

Birkdale possibly has fewer duds than Carnoustie, but that's because the majority of its holes are just quite plain.  Not bad, but not great, or even very good.

Carnoustie has a few duds - 7,9,11, I guess, but the rest is pretty good to great.  There's also more risk/reward to holes at Carnoustie - does it rally matter that much at Birkdale where you are on the fairway?

[Michael Whitaker]

What defines a hole as "Great?"

Is it the hole's difficulty... beauty... memorability... strategy?

I think it is relatively easy to identify an average or mediocre hole... even a good one.

But, a GREAT one? What pushes it over the top?

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Jay...
I have to disagree...it is not a target course at all...just happened to look greener than usual in response to a wet June.
The course dispaly all the virtues of links golf as you saw watching the event, many run up shots, almost very green allows such shots, the fiarwya still run away to the sides of the fairways, but without the incosistent bounces of other links courses.
I spent alolt of time at the Open talking to the likes of Leonrad, Kim , Casey, Cink et all the "Nike boys"
and to a man they thought it was the fairest, difficult course they had seen.
They all commented on the great variety of shots you have to play and that it is great because it does not favour any one type of player.


Number 12 is one the greatest hole son the planet...up there with number 5 at Oine Valley to me as one of the all time great par 3's.

[JR Potts]

I, like some others on here, have played nary a course across the pond, so I'm not qualified to answer this question.  However, is it really the consensus on here that the 18th at Carnoustie is not a great hole? 

Is it the opinion that it is not a great hole, period - or not a great major finishing hole?  Or both?

I, for one, think that the 18th at Carnoustie is the greatest finishing hole in all of major golf.

Now I'm going to duck and cover.

[Jon Wiggett]

Lately, I have started to think that so long as there are a few great holes on a course, the true of measure of the course is not how many great holes there are, but how many duds there are.  For instance, I think Birkdale has the fewest number of great holes in the rota, but I still believe it is better than Turnberry, Lytham, Troon, Carnoustie and possibly Hoylake

Interesting, Sean. 

Birkdale possibly has fewer duds than Carnoustie, but that's because the majority of its holes are just quite plain.  Not bad, but not great, or even very good.

Carnoustie has a few duds - 7,9,11, I guess, but the rest is pretty good to great.  There's also more risk/reward to holes at Carnoustie - does it rally matter that much at Birkdale where you are on the fairway?

Mark,

for me 1,2,9,10,12,14,16&18 are great holes the rest are good to very good. Indeed I don't think there is a bad hole among them. Placement on the fairway depends on the flag position. Most holes require you to hit the right place if you want to attack the flag.

[Kevin Pallier]

Ran:

Turnberry has, in my opinion, the least amount of great holes on the Open rota. 

I agree with you Paul - my memory is really lacking when trying to name but a few decent holes on this layout the same cant be said about other Open rota courses.

[Ben Stephens]

Turnberry has made a lot of changes ahead of next year's Open. The work is cbeing carried out by Mackenzie and Ebert as on their website on their 2008 bulletin.

http://www.mackenzieandebert.co.uk/download.htm

The main changes are on 10th, 14th, 16th and 17th holes. I belive this will strengthen the back nine. The front nine is strong apart from the 1st hole.

There is already talk of moving the 11th green to the cliffside after the 2009 Open.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Personally I think that Royal Lytham is the least attractive course on the rota and has the least number of good hole.
Almost the entire front nine is very balnd..some tough holes for sure, but certainly lacking in character..the back nine cranks it up in terms of quality, and interest...but in my opinion the weakest...

I was there last week and it was in superb shape..looked great.

[Chuck Brown]

Of the ones I have played, it would be Turnberry.

I almost made Troon my pick, and not because I "love to hate" Troon.  I truly adore both Troon and Turnberry.  But with Turnberry, one is tempted to play that word-game that some have played with Pebble Beach -- "If the Pebble Beach Golf Links were transplanted inland to Missouri, Indiana or Arkansas, would it still be regarded as a great course?"