Is this a good golf hole

[David_Elvins]

I ripped this from favourite photos thread.



For those that have played it, and those that haven't but are welcome to comment on the photo, is this a good golf hole?

[Matt_Cohn]

My comments not having played the hole:

To me it doesn't look like it's well-executed. Strategically, it's probably a pretty good hole. It seems to present a spectrum of choices, from 50 yards short-left all the way to the back-right pin position (but wouldn't almost any par-3 on that piece of land?) Of course we can't see the green contours or the wind.

But the execution of the whole idea looks a bit awkward and I'm not sure why you'd settle for a hole that looks anything but perfect on that piece of land. And to me, the aesthetics and...framing...on that hole seem to be a bit weird.

[Adrian_Stiff]

I think its a good hole, but would be better if the front bunker was not there and moved to the right to join the other.

[Matthew Rose]

Curious about a few things - what is the length of the hole, and where are the forward tees located? Also, does the back of the green sit hard on the lake behind, or is there a buffer there?

I don't like the right bunker... I'd rather see the green touch the water there, and I'd also like to see room long and left of the green.

The whole thing doesn't fit my eye very well. It's all very claustrophobic.

[Bradley Anderson]

It looks like a great hole to me. It certainly sits on a beautiful setting. It has a very generous bail out area so that anyone could play the hole safe. And there is bunkering to clear if you are going to go for birdie.

Visually it might benefit from different shaped bunkering, or less white glare from the sand.

[Bill Gayne]

Have not played the hole but like the picture. I would like it more without the bunkers.

[Andrew Summerell]

David, I'm assuming you can roll the ball on from the left, a la Redan style holes.

[Tommy Williamsen]

This is the back tee at 17(?) at the Cliffs at Keowee Lake.  I hit about a dozen shots from this tee.  There is a bail out area left.  I liked the hole very much.  Of the dozen shots I hit about half were on the green.  I think the hole is something like 230 yards.  It was the best hole on the course.

[Andy Troeger]

Tommy,
Are the other tees off to the left? How is the hole from over there?

I like the hole a lot except for the front bunker from this angle, at 230 it seems a bit much to eliminate any chance of running the ball onto the green.

[Bill_McBride]

This is the back tee at 17(?) at the Cliffs at Keowee Lake.  I hit about a dozen shots from this tee.  There is a bail out area left.  I liked the hole very much.  Of the dozen shots I hit about half were on the green.  I think the hole is something like 230 yards.  It was the best hole on the course.

Tommy, I was wondering the same as Andy, where are the other tees?  Are they down below?  Does the hole play the same from all the tees?

Did you have to carry the tee shot onto the green to hit it 50% of the time?  That's some good ball striking!

As a left to right player in most situations the hole looks good to me, but it would be an anxious tee shot! 

[Patrick_Mucci]

David,

Is there a prevailing wind ?

If so, from what direction does it blow ?

And, what's it's typical velocity ?

[David_Elvins]

Bill,

I have done a bit more research.  Apparently it is 250 from this tee, the other tees play traight down the Peninsula.

Pat,
I don't know any of that information.

Interestingly as a side note, the hole is the 17th at the Keowa Vineyard Course. The hole is the second of back to back par 3s, prceeded by back to back par 5s, not something that Fazio is known for.

[Bradley Anderson]

This is good example of a golf hole that would benefit from the Road Hole bunker concept.

That type of a bunker would do an adequate job of protecting the green, but with much less sand area to distract from all of the incredible visual merits of the hole's setting.

[Kyle Christensen]

This was a picture that I took. I have a picture from the other tee ill post below. the hole plays about 235 yards, but is listed at 250 yards. the wind usually comes left to right on the hole to add to the difficulty. I personally love this hole and I really enjoy Keowee Vineyards. My family are members of the Cliffs communities and have played this hole a number of times. I have hit anything from driver to 3 iron into this hole. Great views throughout the course, one of the top Fazio designs I have played.

Here is the picture from the other tee boxes. I think the blue tees are 210.

[DMoriarty]

Where is the next tee?

This is good example of a golf hole that would benefit from the Road Hole bunker concept.

That type of a bunker would do an adequate job of protecting the green, but with much less sand area to distract from all of the incredible visual merits of the hole's setting.

230 yds over water and the green needs bunkers to protect it?  I'd be begging for my ball to get into either of the bunkers.

[TEPaul]

In a configuration and setting like that one I think bunkers really look out of place.

[Bradley Anderson]

230 yds over water and the green needs bunkers to protect it?  I'd be begging for my ball to get into either of the bunkers.

David,

That was my initial thoughts on the bunkers as well, but then I noticed that the bail out area is so generous, and thatt he internal contours of the green seem to be very strait forward. With all that I felt that this green does need bunkering, but not so much.

I also considered that you never hear anyone object to the bunkering around the great scenic par threes at Cyprus Point.

[Tommy Williamsen]

It is my understanding that this tee was used for the Nationwide event that was staged there.  The trees really do not come into play.  I agree the front bunker is a bit much.  The hole does not need it. It appears that you could run it onto the green if you hit it left of the green but that is not the case.

[tonyt]

Not having seen it, it appears in the photo to share some logistics principles with a fairly well renowned and regarded long par 3 on the Californian coast.

[DMoriarty]

230 yds over water and the green needs bunkers to protect it?  I'd be begging for my ball to get into either of the bunkers.

David,

That was my initial thoughts on the bunkers as well, but then I noticed that the bail out area is so generous, and thatt he internal contours of the green seem to be very strait forward. With all that I felt that this green does need bunkering, but not so much.

I don't get the logic.  How large bail out area justify or make necessary a bunker directly between the tee and the hole on a 230 yard carry over water?     I think those bunkers make the hole easier, not harder, which is why I said I would be hoping my ball got into the bunker.

I also considered that you never hear anyone object to the bunkering around the great scenic par threes at Cyprus Point.

I think some here have complained about he bunkers on CPC especially at Cypress as being unnecessary eye candy.  Given that they are cut out of sand dune, I think they are just fine.

But to the point, the bunkers at CPC are not directly between the tee and the green.  If there was a bunker immediately short of the green at CPC 16, it would take the teeth completely out of the hole.   As it is, even a shot a couple of feet short of the green will ricochet into the crashing waves.   If there was a similar bunker as in the photo, the golfer could be a club short of the green and have a chance at Par.

If anything, bunkers would make more sense if they were really only in play for the person who laid up well left. 
__________________________

I don't understand holes like this in such a beautiful setting.   It just looks phony to me, I expect a cruise ship to float up and use the golf hole as a dock.

And where is the next tee?

[Kyle Christensen]

The tee for 18 is about 40 yards left of the green

[Sean_A]

I like the hole with a few changes.  Ditch the bunkering.  Cut some trees down on the left and place a bunker well out to the left. 

Ciao

[Tim Gavrich]

I put up that picture of Hole 17 at The Cliffs at Keowee Vineyards in the South Carolina mountains.

To echo others, it is listed at 250 but plays way downhill, so 235 is about right.

There's just a little more room over the green between it and the water than short, but if a ball lands over the green on the downslope, it's probably headed for the water.

Yes...under most circumstances, a ball that lands just left (from the back tees) or short (from the further forward tees) of the green will hop on.

Not to be insulting, but isn't this hole a bit of a take on #16 at Cypress Point?  How are they fundamentally different?  Why is #16 at Cypress so much better.  After all, it too has bunkers around it.

I'm just trying to understand; I'm not taking a pot-shot at a course I someday REALLY hope to play.

[Forrest Richardson]

I think a majority of golf consumers would find this hole very exciting. And, to boot, it is pleasing to look at, does not seem to violate any major GCA "rules" and seems like a lot of fun in the course of an 18-hole round. Quite possibly, it is a hole people would look forward to getting to...one they might talk about before a round and afterward.

I am sure it could be better, but then again, I nearly always have that viewpoint. 

[Kalen Braley]

Hmmm..

Bailout area short and left, bunker in front, water in front and to the right, 230 yards.

Is this a good hole?