The Continent 1938

[SPDB]

Sean
Mougins recieved all the hype. Sospel was usualy cited the other course in the region. I don't know much about Mandelieu, other than it dated back to the 1890s. How good was it?

The course The Hague golf club occupies today was built before the war but they did not move there until after the war.

But golf was played on the course at Wildhoeve, prior to the Haagsche club moving there.
It was reported on your 1939 list.

[Paul_Turner]

Tom

Frankfurt (Colt) 1929
Norderney?
Stockholme/Kevinge (Morrison) 1932?
Pedrena/Santander (Colt) 1929?

There were two "championship" courses and one short course at Zoute/Knocke (different from St Andre which was at Coxyde).

[Paul_Turner]

Yes the current Hague course is Alison/Morrison and built in 1938.  Alison was on that 1939 top 100 list panel...an unbiased opinion, no doubt

[Tony_Muldoon]

Ding, Ding.  I challenge the moderator.
Whilst Sean may have a point re Chiberta, what evidence can be produced that in 1937 Hosssegor was thought of more highly thatn Biarritz?

[Thomas MacWood]

Paul
Those Knocke courses always confuse me, which one or which ones should be included. 

Nordemey was only 13 holes.

Tony
I'm not sure if Hossegor was better or not. One of the references I'm using is pamphlet put out on French golf some time in the 30s, Darwin wrote the forward. Biarritz was 5751 yards, brief description: Broken sandy ground. splendid views of the Pyrenees and the Atlantic. Hossegor was 6271 yards: Championship course designed by colt and alison. light sandy ground perfect for winter play, fairways watered in summer. In the forward he said of Hosssgor, 'as good as it is attractive.' They may both deserve inclusion.

[TEPaul]

"TE
You are an idiot.
Not all architectural analyst are created equal."


Tom MacWood:

After about five seconds of consideration, I believe I will most certainly concede to you your point that not all architectural analysts are created equal, even if that wasn't what I said to you or asked you above. There may not be any better modern proof of that than you.   

I was thinking more along the lines of why a guy like you or Moriarty sort of automatically discounts what a man like Alan Wilson said about the creation of Merion. 

By the way, would it be too much to ask of you to reread your posts and sort of clean them up? Your grammatical errors are more frequent and worst than anyone else on this website---something like a seven year old.

Are you OK?

[SPDB]

I think you should add:

Dieppe - 1897 (Park)
Deauville - 1929 (Simpson)
Fourqueux - 1924

Each of these were of a caliber that they were in the French Open rota with some
of the others on this list, e.g.  St. Cloud, Chantilly, La Boulie, Le Touquet and St. Germain,
during the time period you're asking about.

[SPDB]

Also, I agree that Darwin is as good an authority as you can find, but 
regarding France, in your research have you come across the French courses
Arnaud Massy thought were the best in that country (apart from La Boulie, inclusion
of which professional courtesies might demand)?

[Tim Leahy]

I haven't seen Club zur Vahr in Germany mentioned yet?

[Mike_Clayton]

Tim..

It was on my list - probably incorrectly referred to as Bremen.

Paul Turner.
Pedrena is decent but not close to the best 10 or 15 on the continent.
You can however see where Seve got has game from. Lots of wedges and long irons into a couple of shot holes and the par fives and many odd stances. It is a perfect place to learn the game.

[Paul_Turner]

Tom

The current Royal Zoute is Colt's 1910 "outer" course at Knocke (with some changes through the wars and years) and has always been one of Europe's best.  The "inner" course was also built in 1910 and has always been a relief course, again it's still there but some changes. 

There was a third Zoute/Knocke course built around 1930 and I think this is the one ranked in that 1939 list because it was regarded as the new "championship" course.  It was a some distance away from the 1910 courses and closer to the sea.  Lost in WW2.

St Andre 1922 was about 50km further south in Coxyde (Koxsyde)...raved about in early reviews.  Lost in WW2.

Mike

Interestingly...Tom Simpson thought that Pedrena was Colt's best course on the Continent.  Or at least he said so.

There have been a lot of redo's of Europe's older courses in just the last few years:

Kyle Philips:  modernised the bunkers at Puerta de Hierro (Madrid).  He also built a new 12th green at Morfontaine which isn't very popular with the members and ploughed under 4 Colt greens at Hilversum to lengthen the course.

Frankfurt has just been remodelled by a local architect (Staedler); in photos, the bunkers look modern, miserable and nothing like the originals...they also redid a load of greens too.

Cabell Robinson has remodelled Hossegor but not sure to what degree.

Steel/Mackenzie built several new greens at a small Colt course called Dommel in Holland.


As good as these course are,  a quick look at the list and it's pretty obvious that the whole of Continental Europe doesn't compare to the Isles.

[Mark Bourgeois]

zur Vahr: 1905

Anybody got a handle on Lido (Venice)...



...and Golfclub Norderney?


Norderney is a 1927 nine-holer on an island near Bremen. Pics on its website look great!

Narrowly missed Rungsted last Fall; any ideas on that one? 1936 CA Mackenzie.

Falsterbo Golfklubb is 1930 Gunnar Bauer. Club website says since then course is "more or less" unchanged, although greens were rebuilt in 1995.

Even though we've moved the ball to 1938 I don't think Halmstad has a shot. 1938 Rafael Sundblom -- but then in 1963 the club had Nils Sköld build another nine and the North Course thus was created by adding these 9 new holes to 9 original holes.

Mark

[Mark Bourgeois]

Ausgezeichnet!



Although, on second thought, it does look a little too green and and little too smoothed out.  At least it does from 24,500 miles up.

[Thomas MacWood]

Paul
Colt advertised three courses Knocke le Zoute, Knocke-sur-Mer and St.Andre-sur-Mer. Do you when he would have designed the first two, how good they were or are?

Mark
Is Rungsted CA MacKenzie's masterpiece? Lido is a good one. I've always wondered about that course, but I don't think it was 18 holes. In 1938 Norderney was 13 holes. Do you know who did what and when at Falsterbo?


Morfontaine - 1927 Simpson

Fontainbleau - 1912 Simpson

Chantilly - 1907 Taylor, 1912-1913 Colt, ? Simpson

St. Germain - 1920 Colt

Granville - 1912 Colt

Wimereux - 1924 Hutchison/Campbell

Le Touquet Le Mer - 1930 Colt

Hossegor - 1930 Morrison

Chiberta - 1926 Simpson

Hardelot Les Pins - 1931 Simpson

St. Cloud - 1913 Colt

La Boulie - 1901 Park

Cannes (Mougins) - 1924 Colt

Dieppe - 1897 Park, 1913 Simpson/Fowler
 
Deauville (New) - 1929 Simpson

Fourqueux - 1924 Colt

Royal Fagnes - 1930 Simpson

Royal Zoute - 1910? Colt

St. Andre - 1924 Colt

Knocke-sur-Mer - 1930 Colt

Royal Antwerp - 1910 Park, 1924 Simpson

Royal Belgique (Ravenstein) - 1906 S.Dunn, ? Simpson

Kennemer - 1926 Colt

De Pan - 1929 Colt

The Hague - 1920 Abercomby

Wildhoeve - 1938 Alison/Morrison

Hilversum - 1910 Abercromby, 1928 Colt

Eindhoven - 1930 Colt

Puerta de Hierro - 1913 Colt

Santander - 1929 Colt

Falkenstein (Hamburg) - 1930 Colt, Alison, Morrison

Berlin Wannsee - ? , 1926 Colt/Morrison

Frankfurt - 1927 Colt/Morrison

Bad Ems - 1930 Simpson

Estoril - 1936 PM Ross

Villa D'Este - 1926 Gannon

Milano - 1929 Gannon/Blandford

San Remo - 1931 Gannon

Bastad - 1930 Hawtree/Taylor

Stockholme - 1932 Morrison

Falsterbo - 1912 ?, 1930 Bauer?

Rungsted - 1936 C.Mackenzie

[Sean_A]

zur Vahr: 1905

Anybody got a handle on Lido (Venice)...



...and Golfclub Norderney?


Norderney is a 1927 nine-holer on an island near Bremen. Pics on its website look great!

Narrowly missed Rungsted last Fall; any ideas on that one? 1936 CA Mackenzie.

Falsterbo Golfklubb is 1930 Gunnar Bauer. Club website says since then course is "more or less" unchanged, although greens were rebuilt in 1995.

Even though we've moved the ball to 1938 I don't think Halmstad has a shot. 1938 Rafael Sundblom -- but then in 1963 the club had Nils Sköld build another nine and the North Course thus was created by adding these 9 new holes to 9 original holes.

Mark

Mark

Thats interesting concerning Venice.  I thought the first course wasn't built until 1930ish, just by the fort in what would have been sandy, dune scrubland.  That pic of yours looks flat enough, but the course on the Lido today isn't so humpty bumpty.  It seems hard to believe we are talking about two different sites for golf on the Lido though the area near the public beach could be where this pic was taken.

Ciao

[Alfonso Erhardt]

Tom,

The correct spelling is Puerta de Hierro and the original 18 was actually finished in 1914. Simpson also worked in the club in 1938 (but I don't know if he laid the lower 18 or tweaked the Colt 18  - upper course).

Finally, when Kyle Phillips worked on the upper course recently, he also remodelled the tees (aside from the tees).

In Spain, also Sant Cugat (Colt, 1914) and Malaga (Simpson, 1925), but not as good as PH (or Pedreńa)

Regards,

[Mark Bourgeois]

Alphonso

How much Simpson is left at Malaga? What can you tell us about the course?

Thanks
Mark

[SPDB]

Given the new date of 1938, Royal Sart Tilman - 1938 (Simpson), should probably
be included.

[Alfonso Erhardt]

Mark,

My understanding is that the routing of the course is still the original, with the exception of par-3 9th hole, which was moved back to allow for more hotel rooms.

Flat property, with two beachside holes with sandy soil, but no dunes, however. I would say few excellent holes (1, 4, 5, 18) and the rest quite monotonous. Weak par 3s. They have recently added a couple of ridiculous ponds in holes 3 and 8. Greens don't have much character, but I don't know if they are original or have been altered over time.

The first nine are fun, with a good set of par 4s, both long and short. The second nine are more boring with just a couple of worthy holes.

Maintenance standard is quite poor, as the course is managed by the same hotel chain (state owned) that manages El Saler in Valencia.

Although the course is probably not one of Simpson's great designs, still much fun and much better than most in Costa del Sol.

Regards,

[Alfonso Erhardt]

By the way, Kyle Phillips also redid all of the greens in Puerta de Hierro's upper course, not just tees and bunkers.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Thanks, Alfonso. It's not a parador, is it? Mark

[Alfonso Erhardt]

Parador it is.

[Thomas MacWood]

Sean
I believe Sart Tillman was 1939, fairly short too.

[Paul_Turner]

Tom

The current Royal Zoute is "Knocke-sur-Mer"  1910.   The "Knocke-le-Zoute" 1928-1930 [NLE] was the third course and lost in WW2.    Royal Zoute is still a very fine course and should be on the list.  I don't know much about the lost course,  other than it was long and right on the coast in the dunes...I suspect it was good enough to make your list.  Colt mentions plans to visit and start on the third course in his letters to Kennemer in 1928.


Berlin Wannsee....from the ads Colt/Morrison only added 9 holes.  It's currently 18 and 9 holes.  The relief 9 is the Colt/Morrison 9 and it looks to have a number of good holes and better than the main 18 which looks blah.



Alfonso

How much did Philips alter the Colt/Simpson greens on your Upper course?  Are they radically different?  Any resited? Thanks.

[Thomas MacWood]

Morfontaine - 1927 Simpson

Fontainbleau - 1912 Simpson

Chantilly - 1907 Taylor, 1912-1913 Colt, ? Simpson

St. Germain - 1920 Colt

Granville - 1912 Colt

Wimereux - 1924 Hutchison/Campbell

Le Touquet Le Mer - 1930 Colt

Hossegor - 1930 Morrison

Chiberta - 1926 Simpson

Hardelot Les Pins - 1931 Simpson

St. Cloud - 1913 Colt

La Boulie - 1901 Park

Cannes (Mougins) - 1924 Colt

Dieppe - 1897 Park, 1913 Simpson/Fowler
 
Deauville (New) - 1929 Simpson

Fourqueux - 1924 Colt

Royal Fagnes - 1930 Simpson

Knock-sur-Mer (Royal Zoute) - 1910 Colt

St. Andre-sur-Mer - 1924 Colt

Knocke-le-Zoute - 1928 Colt

Royal Antwerp - 1910 Park, 1924 Simpson

Royal Belgique (Ravenstein) - 1906 S.Dunn, ? Simpson

Kennemer - 1926 Colt

De Pan - 1929 Colt

The Hague - 1920 Abercomby

Wildhoeve - 1938 Alison/Morrison

Hilversum - 1910 Abercromby, 1928 Colt

Eindhoven - 1930 Colt

Puerta de Hierro - 1913 Colt

Santander - 1929 Colt

Falkenstein (Hamburg) - 1930 Colt/Alison/Morrison

Frankfurt - 1927 Colt/Morrison

Bad Ems - 1930 Simpson

Estoril - 1936 PM Ross

Villa D'Este - 1926 Gannon

Milano - 1929 Gannon/Blandford

San Remo - 1931 Gannon

Bastad - 1930 Hawtree/Taylor

Stockholme - 1932 Morrison

Falsterbo - 1912 ?, 1930 Bauer?

Rungsted - 1936 C.Mackenzie