Problems with Chambers Bay Greens

[Richard Choi]

I would like to ask a question to the greenskeeper folks around here.

How long does it take to grow a smooth green? Especially a smooth fescue green?

I recently played Chambers Bay for the 6th time and while I abolutely LOVE the course, I cannot stand the greens. It is not just slow, it is bumpy. You have to hit like hell to get the ball to the hole and not only that, it moves like a pinball while getting there.

There is absolutely no chance that you will have a good putting day at Chambers Bay with these greens.

I understand that the course is new and the grass has to grow in, but this is the second summer and I would have thought by now you could have a reasonably smoother greens.

How many more season do I have to wait?

[Chris Tritabaugh]

While I have never grown in a fescue green and therefore cannot you question of how long you have to wait for the greens; I can tell you a few things about fescue.  Fescue is extremely slow to establish and it does not like and in fact performs quite poorly when watered and fertilized.  Because of this you are not able to "push" fescue during establishment like you can bentgrass.  Fescue is also not very tolerant of traffic.  If Chambers is getting a lot of play it would probably increase the time it takes to establish the greens.  Once fescue establishes it makes a wonderful turf, which requires very few imputs but it does take a long time to establish and mature. 
Like I said I have never grown in a fescue green but the nature of fescue is probably the biggest problem.  Don't know how long you will have to wait. 

[Scott Stambaugh]

Why don't you start by emailing Chambers Bay Golf Course Superintendent David Wienecke your questions and/or concerns?

He has given numerous presentations on the building and maintaining of the golf course; he is a former USGA Agronomist; he has an extensive archive of articles on their website. 

Getting a bunch of responses on here that will most likely start out something like...

"I haven't played there but..."

"At my course, we do blah, blah, blah..."

"I've never maintained fescue, but I've heard..."

...will never answer your questions.  Go right to the source.

Scott

[Pete_Pittock]

I played there on Saturday and thought the greens were smooth. Had heard about green speeds andbrought a substitute putter so my primary flatstick wouldn't have to consult Dr Katz.

[Tim Bert]

How long does it take to grow a smooth green? Especially a smooth fescue green?

Aren't the greens at Bandon fescue?  We played Bandon Trails the first summer it was officially open for play (I know they had some limited play the previous year) and they were pretty darn smooth.  We originally played Pacific Dunes in 2003, so not too many years after the opening and they have always been great for putting.  Is there a different type of fescue in play at Chambers, or maybe different climate patterns that could cause this?  Or perhaps the grounds crew at Bandon is just that good?

[Adam Clayman]

Hate to give a blah blah blah but...as I understand it, there needs to be a mix of grass types. While your emailing the super ask him if it's all one strain?
 Our Dave Wilbur secret formula greens have always been smooth.

[W.H. Cosgrove]

Haven't played Chambers since February, when the ball kind of skittered across the greens.  There were some pretty sizeable areas that had been repaired about six weeks ago.  Last week as I walked the trail and peered over at the greens they 'looked' pretty good.  My next scheduled round is later this month. 

The question that keeps coming to mind is this; if Chambers is going to need somewhere in the area of 30,000-35,000 per year to break even, will the fescue ever really establish itself as a truly appropriate putting surface? 

[Jim Nugent]

The question that keeps coming to mind is this; if Chambers is going to need somewhere in the area of 30,000-35,000 per year to break even, will the fescue ever really establish itself as a truly appropriate putting surface? 

Is Chambers getting that many rounds so far? 

[Pete_Pittock]

Any winter light availabity problems for 7,8,10,13? They seemed the weakest to me. Drving range turf is poor.
Kos,
What is the green planted area south of the separators?

[Jon Wiggett]

Richard,

fescue is a grass which you need to look after correctly. Get it wrong and it will take a long time to recover. I have quite abit of experience with fescue grow in and my experience is it takes a good 2 vegetation periods or about 20 weeks of perfect growing conditions to establish itself and give a good putting surface.

It does however take much longer to fill in the inevitable gaps that occur as in any growin of cool season grasses. Once established it does provide the playing surfaces for golf that are unbeatable and it is possible to maintain them through the year with very little or no disruption to play i.e. no hollow coring or vertidraining needed if the right program is followed

One last point is it is less tolerant of traffic than certain other grasses and this means the course needs careful planning in regard to spreading the traffic and having large enough playing areas.

Maybe at CB they had to do some work that required dirupting the playing surfaces. I would ask the super there if I were you.

[Richard Choi]

Aren't the greens at Bandon fescue?  We played Bandon Trails the first summer it was officially open for play (I know they had some limited play the previous year) and they were pretty darn smooth. 

That is what's puzzling me. I played Bandon during the second season and the greens were smooth. I know they are not all fescue now but I am guessing they were pretty much fescue only when they first opened.

I asked the pro and the starter about it at Chambers and all they said was how smooth and fast the greens are (do they even play their own course?). They said they had it rolling past 10 (stimp) last summer and that seems to me not feasible.

[Tom_Doak]

W.H.:  Pacific Dunes has hosted about 40,000 rounds per year since opening and the greens have taken the traffic okay.  I'm sure they would be better if it were only 20,000 rounds, but they've survived at 40,000+.

Richard:  The greens have rolled 11 in Bandon for weeks at a time, although green speed is more dependent on weather with fescue than it is with bentgrass greens.  It's early yet to be criticizing Chambers Bay greens.

However, I will say this ... the only fescue greens I know of which have been generally accepted are on courses which don't have bentgrass greens available locally for comparison.  In Bandon, everything is fescue.  At Ballyneal, there aren't any other courses close by.  But at Spanish Bay, nobody ever got used to the fescue greens because they were too busy comparing them to the bent greens at Pebble and Spyglass.  And that's why Whistling Straits never considered fescue on the greens.

[BVince]

I thought part of GCA is determining what grass is the best fit for the local conditions of the area.  I do not understand why they are forcing the greens to be fescue when poa annua and rye really flourish in the PNW. 

- Other greens in this area are perfect
- Chambers could easily have well conditioned greens if they stopped the fight to have fescue greens and adopted a local grass

It is my opinion that this is a battle that will exist for some time.  These greens may eventually be well grown in with fescue but will still have to fight off the poa annua that thrives in the Tacoma area.  Is it really worth it?  Do you guys think fescue putts that much better?  I don't.  I have been playing greens that are rye/poa annua mix and they are fast and firm, much better than the Chambers greens and require much less maintenance.   

[Jon Wiggett]

Byron,

what strain of lolium have you seen in the greens that is so good and when combined with poa maintenance easy?

[Tom_Doak]

Bryon:

Poa annua greens are good for most of the year -- except in the spring when they're seeding, and in extended droughts when you have to water a lot to keep them from dying.  Oh, and in the summer you need to be spraying them often to control disease, which is not as big a problem on fescue.

No question that bent or poa greens can be mowed tighter and kept faster than fescue.  No question that fescue greens will be firmer and tie in better with the approaches if bump-and-run golf is what you're going for -- which was certainly our goal in Bandon, and I think was the goal at Chambers Bay.  I DO question whether bent/poa greens require "less maintenance".

[Jon Wiggett]

Bryon:

Poa annua greens are good for most of the year -- except in the spring when they're seeding, and in extended droughts when you have to water a lot to keep them from dying.  Oh, and in the summer you need to be spraying them often to control disease, which is not as big a problem on fescue.

No question that bent or poa greens can be mowed tighter and kept faster than fescue.  No question that fescue greens will be firmer and tie in better with the approaches if bump-and-run golf is what you're going for -- which was certainly our goal in Bandon, and I think was the goal at Chambers Bay.  I DO question whether bent/poa greens require "less maintenance".

It is my opinion that this is a battle that will exist for some time.  These greens may eventually be well grown in with fescue but will still have to fight off the poa annua that thrives in the Tacoma area.  Is it really worth it?  Do you guys think fescue putts that much better?  I don't.  I have been playing greens that are rye/poa annua mix and they are fast and firm, much better than the Chambers greens and require much less maintenance.   

Is rye grass in the US Agrostis and not lolium? 

[W.H. Cosgrove]

T Doak if you are still out there......how does the fescue handle higher temps and does that help Pac Dunes with the 40k rounds per year?  Tacoma is several degrees warmer in the summer with much lower wind conditions? 

Jim Nugent, I doubt Chambers is getting those kinds of round counts but Nik Pyk might be able to summarize the numbers that appeared in the local paper last month. 

[Jeff Grossman]

Just curious, if the greens were originally planted with a fescue/bent blend could that have helped with some of the issues that are reported in this thread?

[Pete_Pittock]

I just completed an electronic survey about my 7/5 experience. I suggested that they address the agronomic issues regarding green speed on the web site. We will see what happens.

I looked through the superintendent notes and this is the most recent entry specifically about greens. Not much help exce[t they have proved that the can get them faster for Labor Day.
http://www2.cybergolf.com/kemper/courses/layout10.asp?id=173&page=4323

[Dan Smoot]

How long does it take to grow a smooth green? Especially a smooth fescue green?

Aren't the greens at Bandon fescue?  We played Bandon Trails the first summer it was officially open for play (I know they had some limited play the previous year) and they were pretty darn smooth.  We originally played Pacific Dunes in 2003, so not too many years after the opening and they have always been great for putting.  Is there a different type of fescue in play at Chambers, or maybe different climate patterns that could cause this?  Or perhaps the grounds crew at Bandon is just that good?

I played Bandon Trails for the first time in the same time period you did, probably a little earlier in April.  All four in our group struggled that day with the greens (no excuses for me).  One of the experienced caddies with our group made a comment that his experience at Bandon was that newer greens such as Trails took about two full seasons before the fescue greens reached consistency green to green and  would be on par with the two other courses.  I thought that was an interesting comment that stuck with me and I certainly had no experience to doubt what he was saying.

Is this true of fescue?  Maybe Chambers Bay just needs a little time.

[Jon Wiggett]

WHC and Dan,

fescue takes time to growin if you want to create a good, lean, desease resistant sward. It will tolerate heat just as well as bent but does brown off through the day. It is far more drought resisitant than agrostis and from a eco view point much friendlier. It is cheaper to maintain and can be used on all parts of the golf course (main playing areas).

I have played on most surfaces and my preference is for fescue.

[David_Elvins]

...the bent greens at Pebble and Spyglass.

There's bent in the greens at Pebble?


I don't have alot of experience with fescue but from what I have seen it is worth pointing out that the "one grass" look without distinct lines seperating greens and aproaches from fairways that it can provide is a significant advantage of the grass that isnt related to the putting qualities of the green.  Poa can also do this in the right conditions.

[RJ_Daley]

"Tincture of time" is best practice.