The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !

[archie_struthers]

 


The only way thisworks financially is if the Government owns it ......LOL

[Phil Benedict]

Jeff:

You must have MISSED what I said previously -- there is money and then there is M-O-N-E-Y.

I'm afraid that for Pound Ridge's biz model M-O-N-E-Y  ain't what it used to be.

[Matt_Ward]

John G:

Good question.

Dunluce at Portrush has plenty of holes where the tightness is even more exacting than what you find at Pound Ridge.

What I mean by that is that at Portrush you can either be in fairway or find the hayfields and be lucky to have a SW back to the fairway PROVIDED you find the ball.

What's incredible is that people who gush about Dunluce / Portrush, and quite rightly in a plenty of spots, fail to acknowledge the nature of the too tight elements you find there.

Pound Ridge does have width for a number of holes there and from a pure drive-the-ball-intensity -- I would give the nod to Dunluce at Portrush because one must also add the daily weather elements which are more pronounced in Northern Ireland when compared to the more tranquil setting of Westchester County.

Still, among recently opened American courses I have played -- Pound Ridge is truly intense from the tee game perspective and I can only hope the folks there will see that dimension and provide for a bit more elasticity because the lost ball / side-way pitch out routine to the fairway can get quite old real fast.

[Sam Maryland]

Sam:

1.  Visual terror is one reason why theme parks do well -- people like to experience (even if just one time) an edge-of-your-pants thrill ride from time to time. 

2.  C'mon, please when you speak about massive amounts of $$ being lost -- this is an area of the country that has REAPED the benefits of being loaded to the gills for years and years. We are talking about people who own companies, have several houses, vacation to Italy like it's a simple ride for me to the Jersey Shore, and on and on it goes. I don't the pain that is felt by many -- but let's be a bit more forthcoming about the sheer disposable nature of $$ that exists in that immediate area of Pound Ridge.

3.  You brand / market UP -- not down.

1.  I hate theme parks, they give me a headache.

2.  What you are describing is old money and it's not hanging around public courses.  Old money belongs to Country Club of New Canaan, and Maidstone, and probably another one or two.  Old money that own several houses and vacation in Italy want the pool and the tennis for the family.

3.  Sea Island went down the whole "branding" road too...appears to be headed for bankruptcy. 

Look, everyone is entitled to their own opinion...you, me, everyone.  I live in the area and play a lot of golf but I don't get the impression that this club is attracting any sort of following whatsoever.  A few people check it out for the "curiosity" but none I know have gone back for a 2nd round.  Combine that with the bank loan, high green fees, general belt tightening, low season here...this place has to be burning a ton of cash.

Something has to give...

SM

[Matt_Ward]

Sam:

Fair enough ...

But be a bit more fair -- the place has only been opened for one season.

How bout we wait it out and see what happens in year two and what ownership / management does?

[Sam Maryland]

suits me, I got all the time in the world to watch/wait   ;-)

can't speak for the bank...  (maybe it's "banks", plural?)

SM

PS...Archie joked that it only works if the government owns it, careful what you wish for!  Alpine Capital Bank made them a $15mm loan which as best we an tell is 6.8% of assets and a whopping 12% of loans oustanding.

http://burbsbiz.lohudblogs.com/2008/06/24/alpine-capital-finances-pound-ridge-golf-course/

PPS...and I'm not trying to be unfair, just very realistic from a financial point of view.  financial outcomes are taking place at a much faster pace than ever before (or anticipated).

PPPS...further investigation suggests that the Wang's do have some pretty darn deep pockets -- sometimes son's are willing to burn cash that Dad wouldn't have (Bill Jones III prime example).

[Jeff Loh]

matt
get a sense of humour, please. i am joking about hubbard heights

but if i can play hubbard for $35 or pound ridge for $235 it's a no brainer. especially since the starter we talked to said the AVERAGE round was 4 hours 45 minutes at PR.

there is this place in scotland that allows "freedom of their poor shots" and most people seem to like it. they generally don't lose too many balls 5 yards off the fairway and if they shoot 75 or 105 lots are happy to have played it. no trees, either.

in the spirit of having fun (why i play golf) i mixed up the tee selection. Very few from the tips (it is november)--most from the 6700 boxes. i didn't feel "beat up" (a la Bethpage) just pissed off. you have already admitted there was not enough land to start with. that is a fact and nothing like cutting the rough or mowing patterns or firmer conditions can change that. it's cramped. pure and simple.
far too much use of rock on the tees and as mike mentioned an absurdly misplaced rock wall  20 yards off the fairway. i want to be surrounded by nature--not the hand of man. and the hand of man is in my opinion grossly on display on almost every hole.

i don't have the time or inclination to go into a hole by hole analysis (but i do appreciate your vigor and attention to detail) but hole #2 strikes me as poor routing personified. 485/451 par four so early in the round? with water ten feet off the right of the green? so much for easing one into the property. reminds me of Great River--another "winner" in my book.

like to see the video of an 82 year old man hitting 175 yard shots off the rock and on the green. my six iron hit the rocks and ended up in port chester. i'll grant that its "fun" but pretty stupid nonetheless. i'm all for luck but thats over the top.

$29 for two hot dogs and two buds IS germane to the "overall" experience at pound ridge.
you remember what they used to say in detroit?

"there is an ass for every seat"

[Matt_Ward]

Jeff:

If you're joking about something it helps to add a smiley face next to it. I've had enough experience when dealing with a few types here on GCA and their responses to me were far from being considered a joke - my sense of humor is certainly present.

I never said that price won't matter to a number of people -- no doubt when you have to pay triple digits starting at $200+ the reality of repeat play is likely to be a non item for a great many people. The issue for PR is to underatand tha evolving marketplace and to blend in other folks with fees that are scaled accordingly. That includes the development of a loyalty program that truly provides something in return.

Jeff, realize this -- the nature of how Dunluce at Portrush was set up when I played it a few years back was even more intense off the tee than PR. When you factor in the narrowest of fairways on any number of holes, plus the blowing wind (in excess of 25 mph) and with rough that was hay-like when you missed the fairways -- you had a demanding situation where lost balls was quite common. What's so funny is that the same people who rave about the layout in Northern Ireland often downplay that type of set-up but then get all bent out of shape when something of that type is done here in the States. Nothing like consistency working itself out.

I admitted several times -- you must have missed the posts -- where I said tweaking of PR is a must item on a few different fronts. But, I have to say that there are more than a few times when some people bitch and moan about a given course and it's likely they played (maybe not you) from the wrong tee boxes and got their ass slammed and then proceed to whine about how utterly unfair the course is. People who ski double diamond hills with bunny slope skills should be the last to moan and groan.

There is room for PR to expand drive zones in a number of spots -- ditto cutting the flanking fescue rough which has grown way too high -- this is especially so as you come near many of the flanking bunkers which have grass that can totally engulf the ball and even the player himself !

I said before that lowering the grass cuts -- especially on the containment moundings would be a real plus.

Jeff, try to realize that driving the ball is a must item at PR. Too many people have become conditioned -- to the point of overdose -- on playing courses with 50+ wide fairways and where just about anything they hit off the tee will leave them with an approach to the target. PR doesn't give free passes for reckless play -- it does penalize such a lack of execution. I agree with you on a few of the holes where the corset type design approach is done to excess. The drive zone on #2 is a good case in point. The bottleneck you receive on that hole is quite daunting as it pinches in hard from the left and the right side also comes quite close.

I have no issue with the length of #2 for a hole even that early in the round. The issue is giving the golfer a bit more room in the drive zone because of the length of that hole. If you compare #1 to #2 I really like what the opener does because it gives the player the kind of elasticity that allows for creative shotmaking -- not just a regimented call for archer like straightness.

Clearly, there is also the issue with the abrupt and inane forced carry found at #3. Here the Dyes have done nothing to provide an alternate route that can accomodate the player seeking one. A major change of thinking on this hole would work wonders.

I opined when responding to Mike S about the short par-4 5th. Here you have bunker overkill and it clearly says to me that a solitary bunker placed in the correct spot would have been the better approach.

I don't know how many other Dye courses you have played but clearly PR will likely follow what the others have gone through. Getting a sense of what players feel and do when playing is part of the evolution of not only PR but of many courses.

I commend the Dyes and Wangs for trying to place golf on a demanding piece of property and the considerable $$ that went into creating it. There are playability issues that are central to making the course more realistic as a golf option as opposed to a "one round and I'm done approach" that likely pervades the minds of many players.

But, I've playd places across the pond where driving is no less tested and where lost balls and other headaches of equal or greater pain are caused. It amazes me how people can gush about such experiences across the pond but then whine and bark when they see an American equivalent in the States.

Before you write back and think I am suggesting PR is fine as is -- no, I'm not at all saying that. The course needs to move forward with changes that improve playability while at the same time enticing players to still be aggressive without the issues you and others have already raised.

We shall see when they do in year two.

[Sam Maryland]

Matt,

reading your last post makes me worry even more about the finances of the establishment.

if Pound Ridge is a double back diamond skill requirement, the set of possible customers gets even more narrow.

once on a news cast years ago I heard Tom Brokaw refer to a group of "pro-iranian shiite muslim zealots".  as I reflected on this more I thought "you know there's probably only 5 or 6 of them out there".  lots of muslims, but fewer shiite muslims.  even less pro-iranian shiite muslims...and within that sect a VERY SMALL group that are ZEALOTS!

Pound Ridge profile:
- rich
- Double Black Diamond skill level
- local but not already a private club member
- insensitive to price of green fees and food (this is different from rich)

this appears to be the profile of the repeat visitor to Pound Ridge.  I'm not sure how many of them there are out in the wild...

SM

[Matt_Ward]

Sam:

Couple of quick replies to your last post ...

PR is a double diamond hill for people who either can't play or simply overplay their ability level and bite off too much when playing the wrong sets of tees. There are plenty of people on this site that I have read that bitch and moan about an American set-up for a course but when they play the equivalent across the pond they are falling over themselves with compliments. I mentioned Dunluce at Portrush as just one clear example.

Sam, if the course does follow a formula that expands playability with the host of suggestions made here and elsewhere -- then the possibility does exist that it can be more user-friendly. Still, no course can be user-friendly when you have people spraying the ball at-will. Frankly, some people could not reach Colorado if they stood on the stateline with Kansas -- these same people then whine about the "unfairness" of such courses when the hard reality suggest they need more time on the practice range.

I also mentioned that scaling the fees charged to different times of the day will likely add more players to the mix. Again, without beating the same drum incessantly, the neighborhood PR is located is one of the richest in the USA -- irrespective of the ongoing financial climate. We are not talking about people with one of anything -- multiple houses, European trips, etc, etc, are not uncommon. Simply tapping into a tiny percentage of this populace will be a challenge but with a smart marketing program AND with course modifications it's entirely possible. I also mentioned the creation of a loyalty program to build the capacity of the customer pipe line.

Sam, you are already writing a final chapeter on the place. Why don't you wait and see what happens in year two. I think the people running the facility have reached out to a wide range of people to get their comments. They don't live in some self-enclosed bubble.

At the end of the day -- there will be people who will not like what Dye did there. Fair enough. Pete and his clan are not on the short list for some people who prefer their golf to be a of particular style. PR has issues that can be addressed -- just like you and others, I'll be watching to see what they do to address them.

[Sam Maryland]

I have no dog in the fight, just an arms length observer.  and I'm only making a prediction of how chapter 1 ends.  a lot of great courses recover from an initial financial failure, Isleworth is a prime example (maybe it's not a great course?  but certainly well known).  what is it they say, "the third developer is usually the one that makes money"?  not that I think Joe Lewis makes much on Iselworth or Nona...

I've played Dunluce.  if forced to choose I'd play their Valley course every day for the rest of my life as opposed to Dunluce.  both have some spectacular things going on but Dunluce makes the Black look like an absolute stroll in the park -- Dunluce WAY to hard for daily play!  I much preferred RP Valley, Castlerock, Ardglass, etc...

I certainly hope they manage to make it a success -- but an based on what little information we have my conclusion would be PR is burning cash at a very fast rate and significant changes will have to be made SOON, not later.

that's strictly an observation on the financials, says nothing about the integrity of the architecture.  given all the chatter I guess I'll have to get up there and check it out!  FYI, the winter rate of $150 is now in effect.

just one man's opinion.

SM

[Matt_Ward]

Interesting to see that PR was rated the 2nd best public in the USA just behind Chambers Bay.

Be very curious to see if this attention really parlays itself into anything of note for '09.

Frankly, I was quite surprised that the course would garner that mcuh support given its very severe nature -- likely Digest panelists didn't view that dimension in too harsh a light.

[Patrick_Mucci]

.

The 7,171 yard / par-72 layout features 106 bunkers scattered throughout the course and the course has a mix of granite, schist and Inwood marble stone which features prominently when playing there. In fact, the club processed 70,000 tons for use as a base material for paths, driveways, parking lots and construction fill. Fourteen thousand feet of rock walls surround trees, wetlands and water hazards.

One of the real issues for Pete and his son P.B. who played an active role in the course's development was getting a functional routing on such a cramped and very demanding site.

The end result has certainly done that and in my mind Pound Ridge now becomes one of the more desired public courses to play in the greater NYC metro area and is easily the best public course in all of Westchester County.

Kudos to Pete's main shaper Michael Langkau for such a stellar job.

Pound Ridge demonstrates the number one quality that I have always believe is Pete Dye's greatest strength -- visual terror -- especially for the better player. You must hit the ball to particular spots and it's often tough to do because of all the eye-horro elements that Dye has included to throw you off-balance.

The key element for success at Pound Ridge is driving the ball -- you need sufficient distance and control. One without the other will not suffice -- especially on the quality long par-4's you played at #1, #2, #3, #8, #13, #14 and the final two holes.

A quick assessment of the course ... I'd do six hole stretches at a time ...

1st hole / 453 yds / par-4415 from next tee.

Tough opening hole -- plays with a slight SW prevailing cross wind (during summer months) that is into the player's face. The fairway is amply wide but the secret is getting the tee shot to finish on the more invisible right side. Why? The green is more open from that side and should you venture down the left side there are some neatly placed trees that can block your view and add to the challenge in getting to the green.

The problem with the hole is that a set of left side fairway bunkers and large trees visually and mentally force the golfer to dirve over a blind ridge to the right where a blind, deep bunker sits.  The DZ is NARROW.  I hit a perfect drive down the right side and was one yard into the rough with the ball sitting above me.  I had a 9-iron into the green.  The fairway near the DZ was full of undulations.

I liked the open nature of the green and the green site itself.

The green is neatly angled on a diagonal from lower left to upper right and there is Sahara-like bunker complex that wraps itself around the front right and entire rear portion of the hole. Tough opening hole -- there are no warm-up holes at Pound Ridge.

2nd hole / 485 yds / par-4451

Plays back the opposite way from #1 and can often have a helping SW wind at the player's back. Somewhat blind tee shot --

The tee shot is totally blind.
And, invisible deep pit bunkers or knee deep rough await the errant golfer

players need to favor the right side as it provide the best angle into the putting green. Pete / PB have created a massive bunker complex -- begins at 306 yards from the tips down the left side. The fairway bottlenecks -- sort of like what RTJ did at Oakland Hills / South (how ironic is that given how Pete saw fit to be the "anti" RTJ when he started designing courses). The green complex is protected by water that hugs the entire right side of the green -- not as close to the putting surface as the 18th at TPC / Sawgrass but every bit as menacing for the wayward shot. The green has enough contour so if you decide to lay-up or bail out right you'll need plenty of short game skills to come out with par.

The high/steep mounds on the left side slope toward the narrow fairway short of the green, leaving a VERY narrow fairway short of the green.
At 451-485, with water hugging the fairway short of the green and the green, it's a very, very difficult hole.
I made par, so I don't say that because I made a big number.
And,  balls hit into the rough will almost always result in a double bogey or worse.

3rd hole / 412 yds / par-4398

A controversial hole indeed. The carry from the tips to the fairway is 251 yards and this hole -- like the 1st usually plays into the prevailing summer wind. Even if you play the next two frontal markers the carry is 227 and 208 yards respectively. Very intimidating type stuff. 
What's intimdating is the uncertainty of the carry distance and the super narrow fairway left of the pond.
Then, there's the difficult bunker complexes, high fescue laden mounds and undulating fairways.
I hit a perfect drive and had 70 yards to an interesting green.  But, deep rough is too close to areas where balls would be fed from the green or marginally errant approaches.

The green is again angled to reward shots that find the left side of the fairway. Go too far left and you'll find fescue grass that waves like Kansas wheat in full bloom.

4th hole / 169 yds / par-3 161

Plays to a max of 139 yards now as the champ tee is still being grassed. Very straightforward hole and really somewhat mundane for a Dye par-3 hole. Lots of eye-candy bunkrs dot the front portion of the hole but they don't come into play. The extreme right rear pin is the best of the lot.


With water close right, it's presents a difficult visual.

5th hole / 317 yds / par-4309

Short and inviting hole with split tees -- one lower on the left and the other on the upper right. Can be driven with the long ball executed perfectly.

Here I question what Pete and his son did because unlike a Hansen, Doak or C&C short par-4 type hole the Dyes have seen fit to create a slew of bunkers -- 13 at least -- that are all over the place. It's visual overkill which obscures the nature of the rolling land which could have been used to do something of a similar sort.

With all the bunkers, it's difficult to determine which club to hit, and where.
I ended up hitting the wrong club, a driver and ended up 45 yards from the hole in rough between three right side bunkers.
I wanted to hit a 2-iron down the right side leaving myself 100 yards in, but, my playing partner assured me that a bunker down the right side would be the right play.  If I played it again, it would be a 2-iron or 3-wood down the right side.

The green was interesting.

The green is OK and could have been more skillfully positioned / contoured etc, etc.

It's a good hole but throwing "more" for the sake of "more" left me thinking could / should have been done here.

6th hole / 216 yds / par-3 189

Drop-shot par-3 hole and a good one. The green is 38 yards in length and only 22 across. Miss too far right and you'll find your ball in a fall-away swale that will take plenty of short game skills to overcome. Miss left and the green will fall away from that side.

A major step-up from the 1st par-3 played.

A very intimidating hole.
Narrow green considering the length.
I tried to punch a choked down 3-iron, pulled it left into the rough and was lucky to recover to a foot from the hole.
This hole can produce big numbers.  Long green, but, if you miss left or right, you could go back and forth easily.

 

[Rainmaker]

Matt,

PB had nothing to do with this project.  I was the irrigation designer and all work was done by Perry Dye in conjuction with Pete.  We have worked on many projects with these guys and I just want to make sure that the correct Dye is affiliated with the project

[Matt_Ward]

Paul:

Fair enough ... but tell the folks doing the promotion of the place not to use Pete as the lead guy in all their ads.

Go to their site -- poundridgegolf.com and it starts right off the bat.