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Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "National is a goat track..."
« Reply #25 on: July 07, 2008, 02:30:49 PM »
Shivas -

I like your analogy and agree 1000%. I would play NGLA every single day if I could AND I know who I would not invite ;D.
Mr Hurricane

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "National is a goat track..."
« Reply #26 on: July 07, 2008, 02:48:41 PM »
I believe the correct term is "goat ranch."

Lovin' me some of that National. 8)

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Steve Curry

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "National is a goat track..."
« Reply #27 on: July 07, 2008, 03:32:05 PM »
It has been a while, but when I played in May the greens were the best I have ever seen which is saying something.  The course is outstanding and anyone that doesn't get that is architecturally ignorant.

Steve

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "National is a goat track..."
« Reply #28 on: July 07, 2008, 03:37:41 PM »
It has been a while, but when I played in May the greens were the best I have ever seen which is saying something.  The course is outstanding and anyone that doesn't get that is architecturally ignorant.

Steve


Bingo! We have a winner!! That is what I generally thought.
Mr Hurricane

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "National is a goat track..."
« Reply #29 on: July 07, 2008, 03:52:36 PM »
Here's my guess (and this is having never played the course, nor had the good fortune to meet Jim or his fellow member):

Being a bomber, Jim's friend was basing his rating on what he felt he should have shot. The old, I had a wedge in my hand, how did I bogey or double that hole? It never occurs to golfers like this that maybe they didn't really think things through. It's simply, short course + big hitter = weak course.

They never feel that way about Cypress because of the stunning locale.

It also explains why he didn't like Augusta. Not that it's short, by any means (though I don't know what it measures from the member tees), but it just seems like the kind of course a bomber should score well on, at least to most bombers. If they don't, it's the course that is lacking, never themselves.

EDIT:

It's entirely possible for a good player to go out on National for the first time, have no wind, shoot a relatively low number and think that he would have had a REALLY low number if it wasn't for a couple of unlucky, unfair bounces.  It is only after 5 or more plays that some people realize that's the genius of it.

This is the point I was trying to make, far more creatively and succinctly put.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2008, 04:42:56 PM by George Pazin »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

JohnV

Re: "National is a goat track..."
« Reply #30 on: July 07, 2008, 04:30:35 PM »
Jim: What many of us fail to accept is the fact that we often judge the quality of a course by how well we played it.  We may try to be objective in our opinion but the fact is that if we play a course and we are not driving the ball well and have to play from bad lies and bad angles, then we are going to have a hard time praising the course.  I don't care how focused you are about the architecture but if you play Shinnecock and are constantly playing out of the tall grasses you are just going to have a heck of a time raving about it.     

It is for this reason that I will put more credence to my opinions of golf courses after I've officiated at a tournament there watching a number of good players try to play it.

Ed Oden

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "National is a goat track..."
« Reply #31 on: July 07, 2008, 05:23:26 PM »
Jim's friend's comments are so outrageous I chalk them up to pure hyperbole designed to drive home his sense of missing something.  I doubt he seriously believes most of them himself.  That being said, when you cut through the chaff, there are some underlying slivers of truth in his madness.  And aren't those truths all part of the charm and precisely what makes NGLA so great?  Would NGLA be so beloved if its greatness were so obvious to all who graced its grounds?  If that were the case, I suspect many of us would adopt another "cause" if for no other reason that to prove to ourselves that our tastes are more discriminating than the average duffer. ;D  In my view, NGLA is not the greatest course I have played (Shinnecock takes that honor).  But it is certainly one of my favorite places to play.

Ed

Kyle Henderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "National is a goat track..."
« Reply #32 on: July 07, 2008, 05:42:41 PM »
Jim: What many of us fail to accept is the fact that we often judge the quality of a course by how well we played it. 

I really don't think that's the case in my case.

For example: At the King's Putter, my play was beyond abysmal, even by my standards, at both Bayonet and Pasatiempo. I still thought Pasatiempo was tremendous (aside from holes 6 and 7).

In fact, pretty much every time I meet a fellow GCAer on the course, my game collapses at a course I thoroughly enjoy (aside from Bayonet).

I've also broken 80 on some very difficult, well-conditioned and highly touted courses that I found to be very bland and/or poorly designed.

Sometimes, spraying the ball allows one to experience interesting features that might otherwise go unnoticed (as Tim Bert's thread examines). Certainly, playing more shots will lead to broader experiences in GCA, even if those events can be filed under "misfortune" in competitive terms.
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

Michael Blake

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "National is a goat track..."
« Reply #33 on: July 07, 2008, 06:00:40 PM »
Could it be that NGLA simply did not meet HIS expectations, as I'm sure they were extremely high given the course history and hype.

Does he HAVE to like the course after one play?

Jed Peters

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "National is a goat track..."
« Reply #34 on: July 07, 2008, 06:06:45 PM »
In fact, pretty much every time I meet a fellow GCAer on the course, my game collapses at a course I thoroughly enjoy (aside from Bayonet).

I've also broken 80 on some very difficult, well-conditioned and highly touted courses that I found to be very bland and/or poorly designed.

Sometimes, spraying the ball allows one to experience interesting features that might otherwise go unnoticed (as Tim Bert's thread examines). Certainly, playing more shots will lead to broader experiences in GCA, even if those events can be filed under "misfortune" in competitive terms.

Kyle:

Please don't take what I'm about to say the wrong way. Or for that matter, any GCA member.

Regarding playing yourself:

--One typically plays to their TRUE ability in adverse or difficult conditions. This may be when you're nervous at a particularly good private club, when you're in a big tournament, or when you're playing in otherwise "unfamiliar" territory. Anyone who's caddied/been around golf for any length of time knows this to be the case. Ever heard someone say "I'm not really this bad!" Sometimes I just want to say, "yes, you are, but that's okay".

Regarding playing/appreciating courses:

--It's my firm belief that in order to understand CERTAIN architectural merits of a course, you have to be able to properly execute the shots required/dictated. I have seen very few people who are not a 10 or better be able to do this.

--Other course architecture can be gauged by the Chop--how easy the course is to get around, how "fun" it is for the high handicap, number of forced carries, balls lost, playability, run ups, etc.

Of course, different "strokes" for different folks. I know many who would consider some of the great courses (who are fine golfers, I might add) piles of contrived crap.

Sure, playing well on a course may mean some people like the course more because they like courses that are easy to score on, but that, in my estimation, that is a myopic way of looking at stuff.

jkinney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "National is a goat track..."
« Reply #35 on: July 07, 2008, 06:07:28 PM »
To say that National is a goat track is to say, as a friend of mine (a single digit index player who hits it a ton) once said to me about The Old Course, upon having returned from his first round thereon - " If it was in central Jersey, you wouldn't pay 30 bucks to play it". And he wasn't talking about the island in the English Channel.

Then, as now, I am rendered speechless.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: "National is a goat track..."
« Reply #36 on: July 07, 2008, 08:14:10 PM »
 

If it were miraculously transported across the pond, it would have difficulty making the top 20 in Great Britain and Ireland.  And, just to back that completely personal opinion up, here are the courses over here that I think are definitely "better" in alphabetical order:

Ballybunion
Birkdale
County Down
Carnoustie
Deal
Dornoch
Hoylake
Lahinch
Lytham
Muirfield
Portmarnock
Portrush
Rye
Sandwich
Turnberry
Troon
Western Gailes


Rich,

And now, the "true" test.

How many of the courses you listed would you prefer playing every day, versus playing NGLA every day ?

One of the unique aspects of NGLA is how vastly differently a hole can play by merely moving the location of the cup.

The holes at NGLA have multiple personalities, exponentially increased when the varying winds become a factor.

P.S.

I'm trying to work something out for the 9th as my apts on the 16th have been changed.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "National is a goat track..."
« Reply #37 on: July 07, 2008, 08:20:57 PM »
Jim,
I played The National a few weeks ago.  Conditioning was superb.  Even my son (who is only 19) thought the design was fantastic as did our playing partners who had never played there before.  Some people just have a different perspective on golf courses.  I am not surprised in the least.  See you Wednesday.
Mark

Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "National is a goat track..."
« Reply #38 on: July 07, 2008, 09:01:36 PM »
Troon

What a shame!  NGLA has been high on my list of courses I must see one day - if its not as good as Troon (which I don't rate highly at all), I don't need to bother!

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "National is a goat track..."
« Reply #39 on: July 07, 2008, 09:45:43 PM »
Troon

What a shame!  NGLA has been high on my list of courses I must see one day - if its not as good as Troon (which I don't rate highly at all), I don't need to bother!

Chris, don't take everything RFG says at full face value!  ;)

And who says you can't love them all?  There needs to be no monogamy in one's love of great golf courses!

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "National is a goat track..."
« Reply #40 on: July 07, 2008, 10:07:48 PM »
Jim, I played National with a buddies a bunch of years ago who could not understand why it was so highly thought of.  He had played Oakmont, Cypress, Pine Valley, and Shinnecock all of which he loved.   But he had not played any of the great links or heathland courses in GB&I.  He was clearly out of his depth.  I think if someone does not appreciate genius in greens complexes, he could miss the point of the course.  On number one the pin was front middle and he hit his approach to the back of the green and putted off the green.  His comment was, "where is the windmill?"

He is still my friend, but we have diverged.  His education is incomplete.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

John Kavanaugh

Re: "National is a goat track..."
« Reply #41 on: July 07, 2008, 10:23:38 PM »
I don't understand why it is acceptable for people on this site to slam Pinehurst #2 and not be called an architectural idiot.  I'm smelling private BiaS.

Gene Greco

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "National is a goat track..."
« Reply #42 on: July 07, 2008, 10:33:02 PM »
  His comment was, "where is the windmill?"



                                  So he missed seeing that as well?

The windmill is nearly as obvious as the greatness of the course architecture.

"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "National is a goat track..."
« Reply #43 on: July 07, 2008, 10:44:38 PM »
  His comment was, "where is the windmill?"



                                  So he missed seeing that as well?

The windmill is nearly as obvious as the greatness of the course architecture.


very good Gene! :D
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "National is a goat track..."
« Reply #44 on: July 07, 2008, 10:46:35 PM »
Chris, don't take everything RFG says at full face value!  ;)

And who says you can't love them all?  There needs to be no monogamy in one's love of great golf courses!

I think my post needed an emoticon!  ;D

TEPaul

Re: "National is a goat track..."
« Reply #45 on: July 07, 2008, 11:13:23 PM »
Rich:

I will never forget that the one time you saw and played NGLA it was undergoing some maintenance or whatever and just wasn't itself---probably not even in the ballpark. That was really a shame.

I will absolutely guarantee you if you could see it and play it when it presents its IMM you would never make a post like you did with those twenty courses over there that are better or more fun and interesting and challenging to play.

NGLA with its IMM was a complete revelation to me in my golf life when I first played in the Singles Tournament. Seeing it and playing it as you did unfortunately is probably something like getting into bed and trying to make love to a great beauty who's asleep and just won't wake up.  :)

I remember doing that at Shinnecock about fifteen years ago, and to be honest after nine I just quit---it wasn't worth it.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "National is a goat track..."
« Reply #46 on: July 08, 2008, 12:20:13 AM »
Chris, don't take everything RFG says at full face value!  ;)

And who says you can't love them all?  There needs to be no monogamy in one's love of great golf courses!

I think my post needed an emoticon!  ;D

That's why I threw one in!  ;)

Patrick_Mucci

Re: "National is a goat track..."
« Reply #47 on: July 08, 2008, 08:13:25 AM »
Kyle,

There's a wonderful schematic of NGLA which shows two seperate methods of play, one for the skilled player and one for the higher handicap.

Examining that schematic often sheds light on the golf course for those too busy/blind to observe anything about the golf course that's beyond the boundaries of their own game.

Many are consumed by their own game to the point that they see little else.

Peter Galea

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "National is a goat track..."
« Reply #48 on: July 08, 2008, 08:30:53 AM »
Some people would wake up in Heaven and be pis >:(ed off.

If you don't like playing NGLA, you don't like golf.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2008, 08:32:55 AM by Peter Galea »
"chief sherpa"

Steve Curry

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "National is a goat track..."
« Reply #49 on: July 08, 2008, 08:38:21 AM »
Pete,

I often tell my staff there are golfers who would complain if you gave them a free round, lunch with open bar and a $100 bill... Greens too slow, soup cold, beer warm and don't like big bills.  :P

Steve