[Matt_Cohn]

There have to be a few. Obviously on most holes, the hardest pin positions will be near the edges. But not *all* of them. I just can't think of a hole where you say to yourself, "Oh man, that pin is right in the middle, damn that is a tough spot!" Anyone?

[Bill_McBride]

#2 at George Thomas' La Cumbre in Santa Barbara.  This is a shortish par 4 with a downhill tee shot and steeply uphill second to a two tier green with a steep transition.  If the pin is in the middle it's either just in the front of the top tier, or just at the far back of the front tier, leaving a lot of shots on the wrong tier!  Lots of 3 putts on this green.

#6 at Riviera (another Thomas, is there a theme?) - where the middle of the green pin is directly behind the bunker in the green!

[Jeff_Brauer]

Great topic.....

I struggle to design just such a thing.  I know JN used to put small mounds just in front of the center of the green to defend that pin spot, at least sometimes.  John Fought did it some, too.

Tiers, or center depressions work, too.  13 at Indian Creek has a big valley coming off the front center of the green and putting the pin right behind it makes for an interesting shot.  I have contemplated, but never really done a green like that where the back center also falls away to make a real small pin area.

[Bill_McBride]

Some of the donuts or horseshoe greens from the MacDonald/Raynor courses also come to mind.  Here I'm specifically remembering #9 at Mountain Lake!  There is a pretty deep donut hole, or perhaps circular thumbprint, and when the pin is in the center and on top, 4 putts are not out of the question.

Forrest Richardson did a beautiful thumbprint in the tenth green at Peacock Gap!

So it's apparently interior contouring that makes a center pin the toughest position.

[TEPaul]

I would say a pin in the middle of Stonewall's #16 which would be on an inline ridge might be the toughest on the green. And a pin in the middle of Old York Rd's (where we will hold the Pennsylvania Open this year) #12 which is a side to side ridge would be the toughest pin.

[Patrick_Mucci]

# 1, # 6 and # 12 at NGLA.

# 1 is on a spine, # 6 is in a donut and # 12 is just above a sloped front with a ridge running behind it.

All are difficult to get to on the approach, recovery and putt.

[Phil_the_Author]

Bethpage Black #12. The center of the green is a confluence of three different levels coming together in spines and undulation. The hole is never cut there because of that.

[Tom_Doak]

The par-5 13th green at the Cornell University Golf Course.

It's just a big two-tiered green.  When I was trying out for the golf team my sophomore year, the coach said he told the greenkeeper to put the hole in the center of the green ... which was about two feet from the top edge of a 3-foot tier.  One of my playing companions holed his third shot for a 3 ... I six-putted for a 9. 

The more subtle approach is to make a back-to-front sloping green of generally 2.5%, which is just a bit steeper at 3.5% or 4% in the middle section.  If you get above the hole in the middle of the green it will be almost impossible to stop the putt, and everybody will three-putt.

[David_Madison]

#1 at Oakmont.

The green slopes from front to back, and if I remember correctly the slope seemed to accelerate about mid-green. Any putt from mid-green forward, from either side or straight on runs the risk of rolling off the back.

[W.H. Cosgrove]

Wouldn't the midle of the green often be the hardest position? 

With the green now divided in what essentially would be two halves, left/right and front/back.  the 'miss' is essentially cut in half.  A pin to any of the extremes, either front, back left or right leaves lots of area to place a shot followed by the requisite two putt.  A miss to the middle of the green reduces the large areas to hit to.  Thus making them more difficult.

[Sean Leary]

From my home courses:

Prairie Dunes has two.  Number 1 and number 14, one a Perry Maxwell and one a Press. 1 is just a little nob that falls off to 3 sides.  In a tournament, it just gave evrybody fits.

Aldarra #1 and #16....

[Kevin Pallier]

Some members at the National in Australia might tell me otherwise but I would have thought that a pin left next to the spine on the (Old) 7th may be pretty tough ?

With the spine running through the 10th at the Australian as well on the long P4 I would have thought it also would be a tough one as well just over the ridge of the spine.

[Matt_Cohn]

From my home courses:

Prairie Dunes has two.  Number 1 and number 14, one a Perry Maxwell and one a Press. 1 is just a little nob that falls off to 3 sides.  In a tournament, it just gave evrybody fits.

I kind of thought of #14 but I couldn't remember well enough. Do they actually put the pin in that spot on #1?

[Matt_Cohn]

# 1, # 6 and # 12 at NGLA.

# 1 is on a spine, # 6 is in a donut and # 12 is just above a sloped front with a ridge running behind it.

All are difficult to get to on the approach, recovery and putt.

That sounds very interesting. Are those all relatively normal hole locations?

[Gerry B]

the 5th at merion east  has a middle pin that is a beast -and #15 has a mid pin that can be a chore as well

12 at Oakmont

10 at Chicago Golf Club - the left depression can be tough but the middle pin can yield 3 and 4 putts if one is on the wrong side of the hole

[bill_k]

The par 5 4th at Lost Dunes...it is a VERY difficult two putt from the bottom of the green and virtually impossible from the top to a center-front hole location. I have literally spent half an hour late in the evening trying to decide if there was any way to get a first putt close from top to middle-and there are a couple of hole locations in the middle where it is absolutely a no-go.
 Having said that-it IS a short/very reachable par five and of my many rounds there I have had such a putt only when I have misjudged my second shot...for my money, one of the best short par 5's anywhere-and it's mostly because of the green.

[Chip Gaskins]

#14 at Augusta
#15 at Tobacco Road
#1 at NGLA
#10 at Oakmont

and

#12 at Ballyneal!!!!!

[Jason Topp]

I once played in an event at Edina Country Club where 6 of the holes are big 2 tier greens with back to front slope and 3-4 feet between the tiers.  They put the pins on each of those holes on the back tier about 3-4 feet from the slope to the front.  If you were short - you putted up the tier.  If you were long, and went past the hole at all, you were down in the front of the green.  It would have been ok for one hole, but for a bunch of them it got really old.

Our 10th green has the steepest slope in the middle and is a bit flatter in back and front.  The middle pin position is used pretty rarely because it is so difficult.

[Carl Rogers]

The 3rd hole at Riverfront qualifies for this thread. 

Huge mound front left portion of the green, green slopes from front left  to back right with most of the undulation in the middle ... hard to get 5 yard off the green chip shot to within 8 feet.

[Richard Hetzel]

#4 at Shennecossett GC in Groton, CT. This has to be one of the most difficult greens anywhere to hold, even with a well struck shot! If you have played here, I am sure you'll agree. Crowned heck, it's almost an upside down bowl!

[John_Conley]

That par 3 at Riviera with the bunker in it.

[ChipOat]

Rich Hetzel,

That green in Groton sounds unfair (and looks like it in that 2nd picture, too).

Is the course old enough that this is yet another pre-WWII green that was never intended to "stimp" at around 7 when it was built - and is less of a hole for now being at 10+??

[D_Malley]

#14 at Phila cricket club, old course

[Richard Pennell]

#6 at Riviera (another Thomas, is there a theme?) - where the middle of the green pin is directly behind the bunker in the green!

This one:

[Tim Gerrish]

Rich and Chipoat,

Shennecossett GC is a public Donald Ross course from the 1920's.   The 4th is one of the hardest holes.  I would consider it a 3.5 par.   The par 5 after it might be considered by some to be a 4.5 par.  So it all balances out in the end.

 The center of the green is the easiest portion.  With Eric puts the pin on the sides.. watchout!  Especially the back right.


Richard and Bill,

Doesn't having the bunker/hazard in the middle of the green make the interesting cupping locations on the side.  A pin just in front of the bunker would be the most difficult middle green location.  The thumbprints, terraces and slope changes are what make the middle pin positions.

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