18th at North Berwick (West) v 18th at TOC

[Kevin Pallier]

I really enjoyed playing both holes and there is many similarities as well as differences.

Which do you think is the "better" finishing hole ? and why ?

[Melvyn Morrow]

Kevin

I do not believe you can compare the two, different philosophies involved.

[Kevin Pallier]

Melvyn

Can you please elaborate ?

[paul cowley]

....putting philosophies aside....I would go with NB #18 for registering higher on my "fun" factor meter.

[Mike Hendren]

For those of us who tend to lose the ball wide right, the biggest difference is the insurance policy funded in part by the green fee!

Mike

[Sean_A]

Jeepers, I can't think of two holes that are more suited for comparison.  They are very, very similar.  In fact, so similar that I have to believe NB's was purposely built so.

Ciao

[Bill_McBride]

Am I the only one who's ever gotten a bit overenthusiastic (coming off a streak of very solid tee shots, with #18 playing downwind) and hooked the tee shot into the deep depression directly behind and below the sunken professional's shop?

 

[Tom_Doak]

Bill:  I've been on the roof of the pro shop, but fortunately I've been on the green with my drive more often.

I think they are different holes because the one at St. Andrews is 80 yards longer, which means that it's not driveable for most golfers, and therefore they have to consider their approaches in light of the Valley of Sin.  All of which makes St. Andrews' finisher the better hole.  But, I love everything about North Berwick, including its easy 18th.

Sean:  Perhaps the hole at North Berwick was influenced by St. Andrews' finisher, but since the course was obviously going to follow the links ground along the coast, they really only had the 280 yards of real estate to work with -- what else were they going to do?  I suppose they might have put in more bunkers were it not for St. Andrews' example.

[Tim Nugent]

Got to go with Tom on this one. NB is a blast.  But I wouldn't give it to TOC hands down. The rear of NB takes the putter out of you hand and both have low fronts.  The VOS only affects front pins and I didn't find putting from behind too difficult although the OB wall left and rear may cause some apprehension.  The size differential between the 2 greens makes TOC easier to hit.  And, except for big hitters, you might find a greater percenage  of less than full wedges at NB.  With the "can't miss short and can't miss long" at NB this is a bit more unnerving for me tha TOC.  I have to admit. looking at all those windows across the street at NB, I chicken-out and hit 3I-full 60 for a routine par.  My opponent knocked it over, chipped up and made his putt.  So much for playing it safe.
Tom, the clubhouse was under construction this past spring when I played NB.  How long do you think it would be if they had copied TOC and pushed the green to the property line? Also, would you have a different view if they moved OB to the rear of the green like TOC (but without the knee-wall?

[Bill_McBride]

Tom, the clubhouse was under construction this past spring when I played NB.

Tim, they didn't tear down the old one, did they?  Nothing is sacred if they did! 

[Tim Nugent]

I don't think so, they had a temporary trailer with restrooms so it was hard to tell what was going on back there.  The little pro shop and starter/caddie shack were still there and untouched.

[Bob Jenkins]

I would say the 18th at Prestwick is more comparable to the 18th at North Berwick.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Kevin

The two courses are fundamentally different, first by age, then by development, ownership and design. The concept of the Old Course has no parallel with North Berwick due to the slow development of the course from a selection of holes which increased then finally reduce to the now standard of 18 holes. NB was effective new from 1830's with just a half a dozen holes, although some golf may have been played on the small links from the late 1700's.

Both courses produce that fun factor and challenge, with the Old Course being developed (in part) in the 19th Century with the average player in mind.

Also today we have the Public Course vs. Club Course and the needs of each town with St Andrews remaining the dominate influence on golf from the start, even overriding other early golf sites.

Love both courses and they give more than just fun & delight, however
I would accept the 18th on both may appear similar, but IMHO they are not – TOC 357 (4) & NB 278 (4). Plus what about that inner feeling which
is generated when walking up to the 18th Green at St Andrews. Is it not a thrill every time?

My opinion is that we should not try and compare them, just play and
enjoy the experience, again & again & again & again & again & again & again – is it not the reason why we play golf?

[TEPaul]

I would love to weigh in on this question but how can I since I've never been to TOC even if I've seen it on TV so many times from which I think I must have some modicum of undertanding or it?

Consequently, I agree with Melvyn---those two holes just are what they are---eg pretty unusual for the finishing hole of old icon courses. Why even think of comparing or contrasting them? They just are what they are, and what they are is what they always should be.

By the way, do they ask you to buy insurance for playing #18 at TOC? That request at NB is one of the oddest I've ever run across in golf. I declined it. Luckily my partner and I at NB didn't hit anything that would've required insurance, although my partner hit the quite attractive Mrs Majors ahead of us in the ass at least twice and possibly three times but you can't believe how well that worked out later in the bar!

[Kevin Pallier]

Consequently, I agree with Melvyn---those two holes just are what they are---eg pretty unusual for the finishing hole of old icon courses. Why even think of comparing or contrasting them? They just are what they are, and what they are is what they always should be.

Why cant one compare and contrast these holes ? We discuss the merits of a lot of holes / courses on this forum why should they be any different ?

I like both of them and cant understand why with a little tweaking they aren't copied elsewhere. I think they make great match-play holes with the bunkerless feature the main stand-out for mine.

[Sean_A]

Bill:  I've been on the roof of the pro shop, but fortunately I've been on the green with my drive more often.

I think they are different holes because the one at St. Andrews is 80 yards longer, which means that it's not driveable for most golfers, and therefore they have to consider their approaches in light of the Valley of Sin.  All of which makes St. Andrews' finisher the better hole.  But, I love everything about North Berwick, including its easy 18th.

Sean:  Perhaps the hole at North Berwick was influenced by St. Andrews' finisher, but since the course was obviously going to follow the links ground along the coast, they really only had the 280 yards of real estate to work with -- what else were they going to do?  I suppose they might have put in more bunkers were it not for St. Andrews' example.

Tom

The course has been changed around quite a bit.  I could easily envision a longer par 4 dogleg around the parking area especially as at the time cars would not really have been an issue.  As it turns out, its probably a good idea that this wasn't done!  The one aspect which makes me think that somebody had the 18th at TOC in mind is the dip short of the green.  That looks man made to me and it has the somewhat the same effect as at TOC, though not to the degree because the green at NB is much more basic.  Additionally, these days, there are loads of folks who can reach the TOC's 18th and many, many people are essentially treating NB's 18th as a long par 3 because driver is often left in the bag. 

In any case, I like both finishers more than Prestwick's and I am not sure why. 

Ciao

[Melvyn Morrow]

Kevin

Of course you can “compare and contrast these holes” & “discuss the merits of a lot of holes / courses on this forum why should they be any different?”

Why not compare and discuss the merits of a Bentley against a Ford. Both do the same job of getting one form Point A to Point B, but they in truth are miles apart, yet they offer the driver the same ultimate goal. But who is to say TOC is the Bentley and that NB is the Ford or the other way round.

Compare new courses built within the last 50-70 years, there are enough records and information to have a detailed debate – break down the Pro & Cons but does the end result make these courses more enjoyable to play? Talk of the merits of each course or perhaps the parts you as the golfer thought indifferent.

But let’s not forget that “Beauty is in the eye of the beholder”.

[Rich Goodale]

As a golf hole I like 18NB better than 18TOC because it is a truly driveable "par"-4 and also puts more of a frisson into the mind of the unsure golfer due to the interrelationship of the closeness of the OB right to the driveability of the green.  TOC has the same closeness, but because the green is unreachable for 99% of the golfers in thje world under normal conditions (and a much smaller % when into the prevailing wind), the bail-out left is far too easy a choice to make.

However, as a finishing hole, I much prefer TOC to NB, as it welcomes you back into as world-class town whereras the latter just sticks you on a manufactured blob in the middle of an otherwise barren links next to a comparatively mediocre burgh.

JMO, of course.

[Mike Benham]

They both photograph really well ...

[Bill_McBride]

However, as a finishing hole, I much prefer TOC to NB, as it welcomes you back into as world-class town whereas the latter just sticks you on a manufactured blob in the middle of an otherwise barren links next to a comparatively mediocre burgh.

Are you suggesting the 18th green was built up on a relatively flat plain, or that the NB Valley of Sin was excavated, or all of the above?

And that none of that happened at St Andrews?

I think it's well established that the 18th green at St Andrews was "manufactured" at some point, so I don't think this criticism holds much water.

Just MHO. 

[Rich Goodale]

Bill

I was one of the first, if not the first, persons on this site to point out that 18TOC was a manufactured green, so please cut me some slack....

As for 18NB, I'm just guessing, but it certainly doesn't seem to "tie in" to the rest of the local topology.

Rich

[Bill_McBride]

Bill

I was one of the first, if not the first, persons on this site to point out that 18TOC was a manufactured green, so please cut me some slack....

As for 18NB, I'm just guessing, but it certainly doesn't seem to "tie in" to the rest of the local topology.

Rich

I was actually thinking of the Old Course Experience when I wrote that, didn't you make that comment?  I'm in Oregon so don't have it with me. 

I was just thinking that you were trying to make a manufactured vs natural distinction between the two holes, when I don't know if that's the case.

Apparently I have more positive feelings about North Berwick (as a town) than you, I really enjoyed a three night stay there several years ago.

[Melvyn Morrow]

The Old Course - 18th Green

In front of Old Tom's shop is the mass grave for the victims of the early1800's cholera epidemic, one of the reasons I was told why there are no bunkers in the area.

Let’s not forget that The Old Course played well behind the current R&A Club House along the road know today as the Scores. Some have seen the Uni of St Andrews photo of 1856 showing golf players near the Scores/Golf Road junction. The 18th Green was indeed moved and shaped by Man circa 1865/6. Believed to be one of the first major changes Old Tom undertook after taken up his duties at St Andrews.

[Bill_McBride]

The Old Course - 18th Green

In front of Old Tom's shop is the mass grave for the victims of the early1800's cholera epidemic, one of the reasons I was told why there are no bunkers in the area.

Let’s not forget that The Old Course played well behind the current R&A Club House along the road know today as the Scores. Some have seen the Uni of St Andrews photo of 1856 showing golf players near the Scores/Golf Road junction. The 18th Green was indeed moved and shaped by Man circa 1865/6. Believed to be one of the first major changes Old Tom undertook after taken up his duties at St Andrews.

Thank you, Melvyn. 

[Marty Bonnar]

Link to pic Melvyn mentions:

http://special.st-andrews.ac.uk/saspecial/index.php?a=arc&s=zoom&key=aYToxOntzOjM6IjAxNCI7czo0OiIxODU2Ijt9&pg=31

Should work!

FBD.