Bunkering behind greens

[Patrick_Mucci]

Joel,

Was that before or after he designed Seminole ?

Where did your friend obtain that information ?

Ross's designs seem to refute it.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I've always had a hard time making myself put bunkers flashed up behind greens ... I've done it some when we were doing the MacKenzie style, but otherwise not so much.

My favorite bunker behind a green that I've ever done is the invisible pot bunker behind the 7th at High Pointe.  As Tim pointed out, most good golfers (and for that matter bad golfers) aren't likely to go over the green, and nobody knows it's there the first time around, so it rarely comes into play.  But for the regulars, once you know it's there, it is hard to make yourself get the ball back to the hole.  Its psychological impact is much greater than its real effect ... in 100 rounds I've only seen two or three players actually go into the bunker.

Tom

This is my point exactly about blind rear bunkers.  While at Rosses Point the one hazard I thought was fantastic was the burn behind the downhill par 3 13th.  It really came into its own playing the hole downwind.  The combination with the two front bunkers (with enough room to land a ball between them for the kick up) was fantastic. 

Ciao

Sean, I don't get your logic at all.  Tom says that the the "psychological impact is much greater than its effect."  (Which I think is a legitimate use of a hazard.)  Yet you like a burn behind the green.  Which do you think has the greater impact?  Which is the most penal? At least you can hit out of a sand trap. 

[cary lichtenstein]

This question reallyy surprised me. I have played lots of holes with good back bunkers that I have enjoyed far more than a simple chip plus a few holes that lets u bodly go at a pin that without the trap you'c have to take 1 less club.

[Sean_A]

I've always had a hard time making myself put bunkers flashed up behind greens ... I've done it some when we were doing the MacKenzie style, but otherwise not so much.

My favorite bunker behind a green that I've ever done is the invisible pot bunker behind the 7th at High Pointe.  As Tim pointed out, most good golfers (and for that matter bad golfers) aren't likely to go over the green, and nobody knows it's there the first time around, so it rarely comes into play.  But for the regulars, once you know it's there, it is hard to make yourself get the ball back to the hole.  Its psychological impact is much greater than its real effect ... in 100 rounds I've only seen two or three players actually go into the bunker.

Tom

This is my point exactly about blind rear bunkers.  While at Rosses Point the one hazard I thought was fantastic was the burn behind the downhill par 3 13th.  It really came into its own playing the hole downwind.  The combination with the two front bunkers (with enough room to land a ball between them for the kick up) was fantastic. 

Ciao

Sean, I don't get your logic at all.  Tom says that the the "psychological impact is much greater than its effect."  (Which I think is a legitimate use of a hazard.)  Yet you like a burn behind the green.  Which do you think has the greater impact?  Which is the most penal? At least you can hit out of a sand trap. 

Tommy

I am not against rear bunkers.  I am against their being over-used either strategically or as a framing device.  It gets old facing the same challenges over and over.  The over use of bunkering is indicative of non-creative solutions in the quest to visually and physically challenge players and/or that the land isn't very good for golf.  Either way, the course is at a disadvantage so far as I am concerned.  That doesn't mean the course can't or shouldn't be good.  Only that from my perspective these don't tend to be the sort of courses which get me back to the first tee each week.  That said, there are always good exceptions.  In fact, exceptions are necessary for the sake of variety.  I liked the burn because of how it made sense with the fronting bunkers.  The green is very large for a shortish hole so keeping the ball between the bunkers and the burn is fun, but not all that difficult.  It really only matters a lot for the guy wanting a birdie.  Plus, you don't see holes like this everyday.  It really is designed with a lot of thought and with weather conditions in mind.  Finally, the burn is an active ingredient in keeping the course dry.  As a huge fan of f&f conditions, thats something that shouldn't be overlooked. 

Ciao

[Matt_Cohn]

I totally agree with Pat Mucci.

One of the hardest shots for a good player is approaching a back hole location, particularly on an upper tier, with death immediately over the green.

The nice thing is, it doesn't matter what's short or to the sides. A hole can offer a run-up approach and still scare the player severely.

The other great thing about back bunkers is that they are often very strategic and penalizing for good players while being almost a non-factor to higher handicappers.

I think bunkers behind greens are a hugely underutilized feature.

[Lester George]

I think bunkers behind greens are very strategic in most cases and totally necessary in some cases.  Without getting into a long answer....there should be more of them.  They bring another element of strategy in by dictating WHERE a missed shot may occur, sometimes long isn't where you can miss, it's as simple as that. 

Are we only to bunker what players and onlookers like?  I hope not.  It is a matter of variety!!!!

Lester

[Patrick_Mucci]

Golfers sometimes complain about back bunkers in the context of visibility, not knowing that they're there, even despite repeat play.

Today, it seems as if golfers feel that they have a right of  entitlement to know everything about the hole before they play it.

[Mike Hendren]

The most effective rear bunker I've played is behind the double-plateau 17th green at Lookout Mountain when the pin is on the back shelf.  It adds a half stroke to the hole.

The most curious is the small pimple bunker behind the 6th green at The Honors.  Cool, but I doubt it sees a dozen balls a year.

[Michael Blake]

Is there any strategic purpose for bunkering behind greens?

I don't know about their strategic purpose, but I do like how they help with depth perception on the approach shot.

[Brent Hutto]

I wish I had a photo to post but I don't. My club's fifth hole is our version of "The 12th at Augusta National". Not a replica by any means but it has a green somewhat wider than it is deep, set at a slight angle with a pond in front of the green. It also has the requisite bunker guarding the front-center of the green and there's a very large bunker set on the hill behind the left half of the green, different from the ANGC #12 in that it is well above the level of the putting surface. For that matter our putting surface is much more contoured.

Anyway, as I say not a replica. But that back bunker is where a right-hander will end up if he significantly overclubs (out of fear for the pond) and pulls or hooks his shot. Then you have a sand shot, likely from a downslope, toward the water to a green that slightly runs away from you. Everyone hates and fears that shot. So if you try to fade the ball around the front bunker and along the angle of the green (right-handers) and double cross yourself you get penalized. If you try a high draw over the front bunker and overclub, same penalty. I think it is very "strategic" Par 3 hole.

Now admittedly, if the bunker were just another section of the grassy bank that would still be a bad place to miss. But mid-to-high handicappers in particular are not comfortable with sand shots toward water and this discomfort, combined with the huge visual impact of a hillside bunker of white sand, add to the intimidation of the pond. Nothing wrong with that at all, especially given that the green is in fact quite large and the shot is only 130-180 yards depending on the tees in use.