[Tom_Doak]

Adam:

The green had already been moved, but when I finally came up with the idea for the shaping of the green, Brian Schneider was the only one down in that part of the course, and he was on the excavator instead of the dozer.  So, I had him dig out the bunkers and just use the cut to hold up the slope of the green and create the small tiers ... he just placed the material and then tracked over it with the excavator to make the contours of the green. 

It took about half a day to build after I'd stared at it for about a year trying to figure out what to do with a long, narrow half-pipe of green site.

[Kyle Henderson]

Hole #5: “165 yards”

Taken from the left side of the teeing area, this angle demonstrates how much the small pot bunker at the front of the green can dominate play, depending upon the pin position and wind conditions. That scrubby hillock in the foreground hides an ample patch of short grass that lies in front of the green.

The green  itself is quite deep (37 yards) for such a short hole, allowing the player to bail out long. The left and right edges of the green will feed balls toward the middle, improving one‘s prospects of hitting the surface.  Conversely, if the hole is cut more than a few paces toward either the left or right side of the green, a lofted approach must challenge the adjacent bunker if the player wants his or her ball to feed close to the pin. Moreover, short-siding yourself in a greenside bunker will make it nearly impossible to put a recovery shot close to the pin, as the green now runs away from you past the flagstick. The prudent play is to aim for the middle and leave yourself an uphill putt. Good luck choosing your club in a howling gale.




Looking from the left of the 5th green (standing on the 6th tee), one can clearly discern the slope on the opposite side that can be used to bounce tee shots leftwards onto the putting surface, or to halt a shot hit from the foreground bunker.


Into a stiff headwind, it is possible to run one’s tee ball up to the green, but the subtle slopes found at the fore require a precise line. Overall, this green is fairly tame by Ballyneal standards, with only one “hump” to be found in the back left portion. Even mortals have a chance at a two-putt here.

[Kalen Braley]

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[Tim Bert]

A couple more of 5, focusing on the solitary bunker in front of the green.  This was my favorite feature of the hole, possibly because the day we played the pin was tucked just beyond it.

[Adam Clayman]

The left and right edges of the green will feed balls toward the middle, improving one‘s prospects of hitting the surface. 

Kyle, just to keep it real, I must point out the above mis-perception. Yes, I agree it looks as though a shot to the left edge will go back to the right, but in reality, this is not the case. I've tried it several times and even witnessed one gentleman hit just left of the front left pin position, only to have his ball kick farther left. The reality is visible in your photo taken from the left side. See that ridge? It propels balls to the pit of despair. For a ball to kick right it has to be hit left center within the green and already passed the front section.
 I had a great miss here the other day downwind. I was trying to hit the right sideboard and pulled it low just left of the center bunker. (A shot I've often tried but never executed) The ball did take a right kick once on the green and ended up less than foot from the hole to the back right pin.

[Kyle Henderson]

The left and right edges of the green will feed balls toward the middle, improving one‘s prospects of hitting the surface. 

Kyle, just to keep it real, I must point out the above mis-perception. Yes, I agree it looks as though a shot to the left edge will go back to the right, but in reality, this is not the case. I've tried it several times and even witnessed one gentleman hit just left of the front left pin position, only to have his ball kick farther left. The reality is visible in your photo taken from the left side. See that ridge? It propels balls to the pit of despair. For a ball to kick right it has to be hit left center within the green and already passed the front section.
 I had a great miss here the other day downwind. I was trying to hit the right sideboard and pulled it low just left of the center bunker. (A shot I've often tried but never executed) The ball did take a right kick once on the green and ended up less than foot from the hole to the back right pin.

The pin was left center on the day I actually played the hole (the day after I took those pictures of #5), which is why I remember that particular aspect of the green (sloping left to right at the left edge). I agree that anything short and left of the green will be shrugged off to port side.

According to the diagram of the green contours provided in the yardage book, everything that carries to the front left of the putting surface will kick towards the center, but I have no doubt that you speak more truthfully than my memory aides.

[John Kirk]

Hole #5 has yielded a few hole-in-ones already, perhaps as many as the three other par 3s combined.

[Tom_Doak]

The holes-in-one are because the back pin position is in a bowl and it's possible to hole out on a shot that rolls in off one of the side banks.

One of my associates designed 90% of this hole ... the only things I did were to work a bit on the left ridge pin position and to add the little bunker in front of the green, which are the two features most commented upon.    My associate thought the front bunker would ruin the hole.

[Daryl David]

It would be difficult now to imagine # 5  without the small bunker in front.  It becomes such a factor on the front right pin and left ridge pin. 

[Steve Kline]

I love the picture from the side of the bunker. I like how from the outside of the bunker there is no discernible lip to it and that it just looks like a hole in the ground. But from straight on it looks pretty deep. Just a cool visual effect to me.

[Kyle Henderson]

Hole # 6: “480 yard par 4”

This photo (gleaned from the Ballyneal profile on golfclubatlas.com) shows the Tiger tees for #6 just to right of the bunkers which guard the left side of the 5th green (#‘s 5 & 6  head in the opposite directions). From this teeing area, along with the 420-yard tees further ahead on the same line, the fairway is mostly hidden. Another set of tees placed at 420 yards from the green’s center can be found on the dune at the right along with a complete view 6th fairway. The scrubby bunker that hides the left portion of the fairway from someone standing on the lower tees requires a modest carry of 180 yards from the tips at its left edge, though the ideal line is over its right edge.


Once on top, another wide and riotously bumpy fairway is found.  A tee shot must travel  250 yards uphill to reach the fairway bunker on the left. As shown, the hole continues steadily uphill through the green.


If the wind is helping and the fairways are running firmly, one may be able to drive past the fairway bunkers (280 yards to carry), but will still face a 200-yard, uphill approach from a lie that is unlikely to provide a level stance. If the wind is against you, it might be wise to play from a forward tee if you want a chance to make 4.


At the green, the left side is guarded once again by a pit of velvety sand,. This bunker is actually a bit short of the putting surface. Thus, the wise player will take care to select enough club for his or her uphill approach. Any miss should be pin-high and left. To the right of the green, the ground slopes quite steeply downwards, leaving one with an awkward, blind,  20-yard pitch to the sloppiest green yet seen.  At 41 paces of depth and featuring 5 distinct mounds that rise a couple of feet from their surroundings, the challenges presented by this green are difficult to articulate. A two-putt from more than 15 feet deserves a commemorative plaque.


Side note: Thank you to Tom Doak for taking the time to share details related to the design and construction of Ballyneal, especially given all of the insights he is currently providing about Pacific Dunes on another thread.

[Kyle Henderson]

Hole #7: “352 yards”

During my photographic jog around Ballyneal the evening before my rounds, the sight of this hole left me with a grin a wide as any I’ve shown on a golf course. It was also the only place on the course populated by humans during my tour -- a threesome was teeing off on 7 as I took pictures of the 6th green (two of them were scheduled to caddie dual loops for my father and I the next day). All of them employed different strategies on the 7th.

What a superb design. Playing as short as 285 yards from the forward tees, the hole is drivable even for medium-length hitters from the tips, when conditions are favorable.

This spectacular depiction taken from the Ballyneal website captures much of the 7th's allure. The prominent sand trap in the left-center of the fairway is a 240-yard carry from the long tees. There is plenty of room short, to the right, and past the right edge of the bunker. The 4th fairway touches the rear of the 7th green complex, allowing for a sneak preview and a chance to carefully select the best way to tackle this puzzler.


As one approaches the bunker, the view of the flag disappears (assuming one could see it from the tee, a view only afforded by front pin locations). Coupled with the uneven ground and the need to hit a high shot to clear the hazard, this is probably not the ideal place to lay up. If you hit into the bunker, say hello to the bogeyman. Playing right of the bunker leaves one with a full wedge with a backstop behind the front and middle pin positions.


Past the bunker, the fairway slope is predominantly from left-to-right. The entrance is widest from this angle, but the slope on the left side of the green cannot be used as a backstop. Any approach shot that misses to the left will be well above the green. Good luck stopping your ball on the surface from there.


Playing a driver or 3-wood to just short of the green might result in an unpleasant kick into the right front greenside bunker. It might also leave an awkward pitch from a tight lie in the fairway.


The 47-yard deep, three-tiered, E-shaped putting surface is true original, or at the very least it is unlike any other that I've seen personally. Regarding its construction, Tom Doak stated earlier in this thread

“…when I finally came up with the idea for the shaping of the green, Brian Schneider was the only one down in that part of the course, and he was on the excavator instead of the dozer.  So, I had him dig out the bunkers and just use the cut to hold up the slope of the green and create the small tiers ... he just placed the material and then tracked over it with the excavator to make the contours of the green. It took about half a day to build after I'd stared at it for about a year trying to figure out what to do with a long, narrow half-pipe of green site.”

This photograph from the golfclubatlas.com course profile shows the slope left of the green. From this angle, a pitch is required to reach the back tier. One also has the option of chipping or pitching into the slope left of the green at an angle that will feed the ball back to the right to access a middle pin position. Recovery from either of the right hand bunkers will usually prove easier than from the shortgrass or bunker found above the green on the left.

[John Kirk]

Great pictures.  Before the 6th hole gets away, let me say the left bunker 20-50 yards short of the green does a great job of keeping my approach shots from getting to the left side where they need to be.

Rivals the 10th hole as the most difficult tee shot on the course.  Clearly the most difficult hole with respect to its stated par.  Convex putting surface sheds balls left and right.

[Doug Sobieski]

Rivals the 10th hole as the most difficult tee shot on the course.  Clearly the most difficult hole with respect to its stated par.  Convex putting surface sheds balls left and right.

John,

Re: #6 I agree 100%. It is extremely awkward for me because I am never comfortable due to the blind nature of the tee shot. I think 10 provides slightly less anxiety because you can see your ball land, generally. And the length of the 2nd shot on 6 coupled with the elevation change makes it difficult to get a good grip on where I want to land the ball. Hence, the green sheds those indifferent shots.

On my trip a couple weeks ago, I started to view 6 as one of the strongest holes on the course, for many reasons. Previously I dreaded it because of its difficulty. I'm really starting to enjoy its nuances.

Doug

[Adam Clayman]

Too many stories to share. Suffice to say the left bunkers on 6 are the essence of risk and reward. One must flirt with both to obtain the proportional rewards.

Beverly's Don Ross was so awe filled when looking at the seventh green, all he could mutter was "Adam, this is one of the greatest greens in golf".

[Kyle Henderson]

Too many stories to share. Suffice to say the left bunkers on 6 are the essence of risk and reward. One must flirt with both to obtain the proportional rewards.

Beverly's Don Ross was so awe filled when looking at the seventh green, all he could mutter was "Adam, this is one of the greatest greens in golf".

I would honestly prefer to putt around on the sixth and seventh greens at Ballyneal for an hour each than to play most of the nine-hole courses within an hour of my house. That's how much fun they are.

If only one of my local courses would build a copy of the 7th green as a practice area. I might actually be motivated to improve my short game.

[Jeff Tang]

Overall great pictures of Ballyneal.  I too found the 6th to be the most difficult hole on the course.  In my four times playing it I only parred it once, on my first try, and probably because at that point I didn't realize how tough a hole it was yet, ignorance is bliss.  I could not get comfortable on the tee knowing that the hole goes left and with its length I felt like I needed to really get a hold of one.  There seems to be a lot more room to the right off the tee than what I had first thought, and my body kept wanting me to hit it further left and flirt with those incredibly nasty looking bunkers on that side.  The hole doesn't get any easier when you do get to the green, and I found the right pin position to be particularly difficult with the drop off on that side of the green.  Anything less than a solid shot will feed away from the pin.

Regarding #7 this is one of the most fun holes I've ever played and provides great variety after playing the long and tough 6th.  The hole presents you with options off the tee, and with the right wind it's fun to have an opportunity to take a rip at the green.  Unfortunately I never had the chance to play the hole with the flag in the back of the green.  I would think with that pin position the whole dynamic of the hole changes and will make you want to hit a different type of tee shot to give you better access to the back of the green.  I made anywhere from a 3 to a 7 when I played this hole.

Part of the greatness of Ballyneal I feel is the variety of the routing.  You get the tough 6th and then the short par 4 7th, and then follow that up with (SPOILER!) the great par 5 8th, it's really a great stretch of holes.

[Jim Colton]

You don't want to even a little bit left of #6...you might face a lie like this one.  It's a little hard to tell from the picture, but the ball is in the 'V' between two adjacent mounds of sand.




#7 is probably my favorite hole on the course.  I'm a sucker for short par 4's, and I love the options off the tee (lay up, go straight at the flag from the left, sling it around the bank on the right) that vary based on the hole locations.  I enjoy the thrill of seeing your approach roll off the slope of the green on the left, followed by praying that it doesn't roll all the way into the nasty right greenside bunker.  Eagle is a possibility, so is triple bogey or worse.  That's what a short par 4 should be all about.

[Anthony Fowler]

I am new to GCA.com and thank everyone for making it what it is.  I am grateful to be able to participate.

The 7th green at Ballyneal is possibly the greatest I have ever seen, which makes the rest of the hole such a disappointment. 

The fairway bunker is 238 to carry from the back tee box.  Beyond it is a very wide fairway that feeds into the middle off both sides.  The skilled player is left with a very fun but not particularly challenging short-range pitch shot.  Jeff, I have to disagree with those who cite the many options off the tee.  For skilled players (a group which I only occasionally enter the ranks of), the 7th is fairly trivial to play with one dominant strategy off the tee.

On the other hand, if the hole were longer such that the bunker was a serious consideration, or if there were other challenges beyond the bunker (another central hazard, native grasses pinching the fairway, or more internal fairway countour) the 7th would be one of the greats, through and through.  I understand the value in natural hazards and random hazards and that designers should not simply create them for the most skilled players (i.e. the classic RTJ bunkers pinching the fairway at the 260-285 range), but a great hole should make players think and have some inherent risk and challenge involved on every shot.

Mr. Doak, I am a huge fan of your work (architecture and writing).  I know that Rupert wants a college tourney at Ballyneal.  If he pulls it off, I would humbly encourage you to see how the 7th holds up off the tee and consider a new box.  Thanks to everyone.

[Scott Szabo]

I am new to GCA.com and thank everyone for making it what it is.  I am grateful to be able to participate.

The 7th green at Ballyneal is possibly the greatest I have ever seen, which makes the rest of the hole such a disappointment. 

The fairway bunker is 238 to carry from the back tee box.  Beyond it is a very wide fairway that feeds into the middle off both sides.  The skilled player is left with a very fun but not particularly challenging short-range pitch shot.  Jeff, I have to disagree with those who cite the many options off the tee.  For skilled players (a group which I only occasionally enter the ranks of), the 7th is fairly trivial to play with one dominant strategy off the tee.

On the other hand, if the hole were longer such that the bunker was a serious consideration, or if there were other challenges beyond the bunker (another central hazard, native grasses pinching the fairway, or more internal fairway countour) the 7th would be one of the greats, through and through.  I understand the value in natural hazards and random hazards and that designers should not simply create them for the most skilled players (i.e. the classic RTJ bunkers pinching the fairway at the 260-285 range), but a great hole should make players think and have some inherent risk and challenge involved on every shot.

Mr. Doak, I am a huge fan of your work (architecture and writing).  I know that Rupert wants a college tourney at Ballyneal.  If he pulls it off, I would humbly encourage you to see how the 7th holds up off the tee and consider a new box.  Thanks to everyone.

Anthony,

You must not have ever played that hole into the teeth of the wind.  The fairway bunker is almost impossible to carry........

[Adam Clayman]

A great green not being particularly challenging on approach which renders the rest of the hole a disappointment? Seems like a contradiction.

Anthony- Where would this new tee be? Would it climb the dune behind 6? How would this addition affect the routing?

The approach to 7 isn't about the challenge, it's about the fun. BUt then again, I would have no idea how a great player views things.

[Tom_Doak]

Anthony:

Thanks for your comments.  I don't think you've played the hole enough yet.

When I was first laying out the course I actually did consider a tee much further back and higher.  I decided against it for two reasons:  first, it's already a long walk back to the back tee from #6 green without climbing up there, and second, with the hole playing into the wind, no one would get past the fairway bunker to where they could even see the green for their second shots.  (I've never been back up there since we decided against the tee -- that picture from up there is terrific.)

The hole plays into the teeth of the wind about 1/3 of the time, and carrying the bunker under those circumstances would be a risk not worth taking for the vast majority of low-handicappers, although I am sure there are college boys who would carry it in a hurricane.

I played the course a month ago with a young man who was a low handicapper and he felt the same as you, carrying the bunker with ease.  He left himself in that awkward 40-50 yard range to the middle of the green, DOWNWIND, with the flag in the very back.  He tried to pitch it, knocked it over the green and made six, I think.  I would have PUTTED the ball from where he was with his drive, but he was still too busy thinking it should be an easy three from 50 yards.

That is partly the point of the hole.  It's really not that hard ... you walk off the green thinking you should NEVER make more than a four there, and you should have made three, and you get to the next tee a bit steamed and in too aggressive a frame of mind, and then we do it to you AGAIN on a short par-5.

I have never heard Rupert talk about a college event but I would love to see one there.  If they let me set it up for them, I'd just put the hole middle right the first day and back on the second day, and sit there on #8 tee with a cooler and keep score.

[Jeff Tang]

Anthony,

I also wonder in what wind conditions you have played the 7th hole in.  I played it in two consecutive days, one day downwind, and the next day into the wind.  This changed the playing characteristics of the hole dramatically.  We did not play the hole all the way back on the day the hole was into the wind, but had we I would not have been able to carry the fairway bunker, and I would have been forced into a decision to either hit a drive right of the bunker bringing the native grasses into play, or lay up short of the bunker and be faced with a blind shot.

My other point in my previous post was that by changing the hole location on that green from the front to the back will dictate what strategy I decide on from the tee.  As Tom Doak mentions in his post with the hole in the back of the green that 50 yard pitch would be a difficult one and one I would try to avoid if at all possible.

[RJ_Daley]

Until I played 7, all I could think about was how cool the design was from the photos I'd seen.  I love the short par 4s where anything is possible.  I so looked forward to playing the hole with the E green.  Then when I got my first crack, I hit a sliced driver about 3 steps into the high right side native only 110 or so out.  I had a reasonable lie but skulled a 9I low and straight over the green into 4 FW.  I then pitched on and down off the front.  In the end I walked away from that hole I looked so forward to playing with a 7! 

All I thought about in the following year (when I thought about BallyNeal, was that darn E green shorty 7th hole.   I got my revenge! 

I have similar feelings for 8 at SHGC and 15 WH.  Love the short 4s with fun drives and cool stuff on and around the greens.

[Tim Bert]

#7 & #8 might be the most unique back-to-back greens I've ever played.

Two more views of #7 green for those interested.

One from the front left


And one from behind the hole

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