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Anthony Fowler

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Re: BALLYNEAL: IN WORDS AND PICTURES (1st-7th holes now posted)
« Reply #75 on: July 10, 2008, 12:57:19 AM »
Thanks for all the thoughtful comments.

Jeff, I would love nothing more than to play Ballyneal many more times in all wind conditions.  The two times I played the 7th, I did so into a light breeze.  I am certainly not a long hitter for one who plays the tips, and I think the weather conditions that would prevent me from playing a tee shot over the bunker to a short pitch would be quite extreme.  But once again, I would love to play the hole enough enough to see those conditions.

Adam, I apologize if I did not clarify or if I contradicted myself.  My primary point is that the tee shot (under most conditions) lacks interest.  The short pitch approach should be a reward for having hit a good tee shot or having taken on some risk, not the default.

Tom, thank you for your time and consideration.  I'd love to join you on that tee box if you'll let me put my Cheerwine (cherry cola) in your cooler.

Brad Fleischer

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Re: BALLYNEAL: IN WORDS AND PICTURES (1st-7th holes now posted)
« Reply #76 on: July 10, 2008, 01:48:06 AM »
Kyle thanks for the great pics and descriptions. I have followed this course closely and seeing the pictures and descriptions makes me all the more envious of those that have played it. I can only imagine how much better it must be in person. The sign of a great course to me is would I never be bored by playing it. From the reviews and pictures it seems that answer would be a emphatic no..... Heres hoping the public course comes to fruition and is half as good !!!

Kyle Henderson

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Re: BALLYNEAL: IN WORDS AND PICTURES (1st-7th holes now posted)
« Reply #77 on: July 10, 2008, 01:50:38 PM »
Brad: The public course is going to be entitled "Grateful Dunes" and located to the north of Ballyneal (adjacent to the 3rd and 4th holes), according to my caddie. No word yet on who will design it.
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

Adam Clayman

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Re: BALLYNEAL: IN WORDS AND PICTURES (1st-7th holes now posted)
« Reply #78 on: July 10, 2008, 02:21:40 PM »
Anthony. No problemo. I sensed what you meant but had to take your words for it. Rather than play the tips try moving forward. You will not find the shot all that straight forward. My favorite approach distance into the hole...2 feet. ;)

Playing with Jimmy Murrat and Jason T the other day illustrated a wonderful truism in golf. Jason had 3 feet for birdie and missed. Jimmy tugged his approach just long enough to find the left bunker and holed it out for a tree.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Kyle Henderson

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Re: BALLYNEAL: IN WORDS AND PICTURES (1st-7th holes now posted)
« Reply #79 on: July 10, 2008, 03:25:42 PM »
Hole #8 “515 yards”

Another world-class hole. Though it is a short par 5 by modern standards, especially given that the course is 3,200 feet above sea level with low humidity, it plays uphill and requires a well struck approach (from what will be an uneven lie in all likelihood) to be reached in two. Into a fierce wind, one might consider playing from the shortest tees (350 yards).


The dominant bunker complex (which I shall refer to as the “Yucca Monster“) that eats into the center line of the hole from the right is 300 yards from the back tees. However, with a  very strong, helping wind a long bomber might try to hoist one over the Monster or play through the narrow patch of fairway to the left. The more one (successfully) challenges the Monster from the tee, the greater one’s odds of making 4.



Another photo borrowed from the Ballyneal website elucidates the massive furrows and folds which define the 8th hole’s topography.



As on the 4th hole, plenty of fairway width is offered to improve playability in strong crosswinds and to allow careful placement of tee shots by experts seeking the ideal angle of attack.



Another showcase of the naturalistic quality and variety found  in Ballyneal’s hazards.



A view of the monster’s left edge and the lay-up area beyond from 200 yards out.



The front edge of this bunker is 60 paces shy of the green’s center. From this little beauty, perfection will be required if hopes of par are to be realized. The feral green contours are visible even in photos from this range. The pin was at the very far right, upper portion of the green -- a surface that is 31 yards deep and angled from front left to back right -- on the following day. I was able to skip a 5-wood up onto that shelf while my father’s wedge came up short and rolled more than 30 yards back down the hill to the right.



From this angle, looking across the green from the left side, the back stops at the right rear are visible, as is the bunker behind the green. That rear bunker presents very dicey recovery prospects and strikes fear in the heart of anyone going for the green from a great distance.



One last rearward glance reveals the eminently naturalistic qualities of the 8th hole, the setting sun revealing the various humps and hollows that tie the fairway and green into their surroundings.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2008, 03:31:46 PM by Kyle Henderson »
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

Tom Huckaby

Re: BALLYNEAL: IN WORDS AND PICTURES (1st-8th holes now posted)
« Reply #80 on: July 10, 2008, 03:30:42 PM »
Question for all lovers of Ballyneal, posted here as I figure this is not worth a separate thread, but you will see it...

I shall be going out there for the first time in about two months.  Is it better to go out and see things as much as possible for the first time... or is it better to study threads such as this, and all other info, to find out as much as one can about the place?

I know nothing can prepare one for what it is like in person.

I've just been actively avoiding this thread, and pretty much all other posts about the place, in an effort to keep expectations realistic as much as possible (exceeding such is always so much better than not); and just so that well... I am blown away by newness as much as possible.

We've discussed this before in this site - Rich Goodale was always one to prefer to see things "fresh"; and prior to this I was always pretty much the other way - the more I could find out the better....

I just figure trying a new approach can never hurt.

So am I wrong to ignore this thread and all other info, as much as I can? 

Did any other visitors make an effort to handle it one way or the other?

Thanks.

TH


Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BALLYNEAL: IN WORDS AND PICTURES (1st-8th holes now posted)
« Reply #81 on: July 10, 2008, 03:37:47 PM »
TH,

Good question. I'm one of those who prefers to see a movie fresh
and not read any reviews beforehand. I did that with Pacific Dunes
for the most part for example and was the better for it IMO
--a lot of "wows" and unexpected things on the first time (and second
time) around. I'm trying the same
approach with Royal County Down before a vist there this fall.
Difficult to do on this site and not everybody's cup of tea,
but since Goodale and I were separated at birth it's just
another one of those things...
Twitter: @Deneuchre

Kyle Henderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BALLYNEAL: IN WORDS AND PICTURES (1st-8th holes now posted)
« Reply #82 on: July 10, 2008, 03:40:19 PM »
TH,

Perhaps you should provide us with a current list of your golfing exploits so we can avoid posting about courses you haven't seen yet. ;D
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

Tom Huckaby

Re: BALLYNEAL: IN WORDS AND PICTURES (1st-8th holes now posted)
« Reply #83 on: July 10, 2008, 03:46:07 PM »
Kyle:  in absolutely no way am I even close to suggesting anything negative about this thread.  It is fantastic - I can see that from the little I looked at it before I decided to turn away.  Mine was just a very honest question about how best to approach one's first visit to an incredible place, and it seems that many who've been to BN are posting here, thus it seemed to be a great place for my question.  My apologies if it takes away from the hole by hole discussion here - just say the word and I will start a new thread.  I just thought this wasn't worth such...  One way or the other, I'd really appreciate your take - did you study beforehand or see it fresh?  Do you care one way or the other?  Do you think it makes any difference?


Doug:  many thanks.  I have always gone the other way... and I figured this was a great opportunity to try it how you did with Pacific Dunes and are trying to do with RCD.  I truly look forward to some WOW moments not based on recognition and confirmation, but true WOWS.  Yours is sold confirmation for me.

TH

Tony_Chapman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BALLYNEAL: IN WORDS AND PICTURES (1st-8th holes now posted)
« Reply #84 on: July 10, 2008, 03:46:07 PM »
Question for all lovers of Ballyneal, posted here as I figure this is not worth a separate thread, but you will see it...

I shall be going out there for the first time in about two months.  Is it better to go out and see things as much as possible for the first time... or is it better to study threads such as this, and all other info, to find out as much as one can about the place?

I know nothing can prepare one for what it is like in person.

I've just been actively avoiding this thread, and pretty much all other posts about the place, in an effort to keep expectations realistic as much as possible (exceeding such is always so much better than not); and just so that well... I am blown away by newness as much as possible.

We've discussed this before in this site - Rich Goodale was always one to prefer to see things "fresh"; and prior to this I was always pretty much the other way - the more I could find out the better....

I just figure trying a new approach can never hurt.

So am I wrong to ignore this thread and all other info, as much as I can? 

Did any other visitors make an effort to handle it one way or the other?

Thanks.

TH

Huck -- I can sit here and look at these pictures all day, but it doesn't give me any expectations other than it should be very cool to play here someday. What will make my heart go is when I see the green grass mixed in those chop hills.

That left turn on to the gravel just north of Gothenburg gets me excited to play everytime I make the trip as does the small, hidden sign that reads: sand hills golf club.

Daryl David

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BALLYNEAL: IN WORDS AND PICTURES (1st-8th holes now posted)
« Reply #85 on: July 10, 2008, 03:47:05 PM »
Tom,

I think it will enhance your enjoyment to study the threads and course profiles.  Much like any of us that finally get to play a course we have seen on TV our whole lives relish trying to match up reality to what we imagined.

I have taken one individual to Ballyneal that had not seen a photo, read an article or even heard mention of it existing.  It was interesting to watch his reaction as he played.  I think he was too stunned to really get really comfortable during the first round.

Tom Huckaby

Re: BALLYNEAL: IN WORDS AND PICTURES (1st-8th holes now posted)
« Reply #86 on: July 10, 2008, 03:50:58 PM »
Tony:  of course the experience won't be diminished by advanced study - none of mine ever have been to date and the greater the course, the more I have studied.  When I got to that sign outside of Mullen, well let's just say I knew it would be there, and what it would be like.  ;)

I just have to believe this may very well be my one and only time to EVER get out to Ballyneal, so I am going for optimization / perfection.

THus the changed approach.  But maybe I have it wrong... I really don't know.


Daryl:  that's a very good point as well, and pretty much why prior to this I have always studied.  It is fun to match up relaity with imagination.  I shall have to give this more thought... In any case I will be lucky to play several rounds when I go out there, so being stunned the first time, well... that's kinda what I am after!  I have never been totally STUNNED before by a great course...

TH

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BALLYNEAL: IN WORDS AND PICTURES (1st-8th holes now posted)
« Reply #87 on: July 10, 2008, 03:56:23 PM »
I have never been totally STUNNED before by a great course...

Not even Sand Hills?
Twitter: @Deneuchre

Tom Huckaby

Re: BALLYNEAL: IN WORDS AND PICTURES (1st-8th holes now posted)
« Reply #88 on: July 10, 2008, 03:59:52 PM »
I have never been totally STUNNED before by a great course...

Not even Sand Hills?

LOL
I had studied it in HUGE detail before arrival.  Oh I was rather blown away by the course I consider to be the best on this planet... I just was not stunned, at least not due to anything I hadn't seen before, in pictures and imagination.... Awed?  yes.  Blown away?  yes.  Spent the days there in a purple haze of joy?  Absolutely.   But stunned?  No, not in this context.


Tony_Chapman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BALLYNEAL: IN WORDS AND PICTURES (1st-8th holes now posted)
« Reply #89 on: July 10, 2008, 04:00:36 PM »
I just have to believe this may very well be my one and only time to EVER get out to Ballyneal, so I am going for optimization / perfection.

Why? Do you think you'll ever get back to Sand Hills? Maybe that's an offline question.

Kyle Henderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BALLYNEAL: IN WORDS AND PICTURES (1st-8th holes now posted)
« Reply #90 on: July 10, 2008, 04:04:02 PM »
Huckster: I studied up on Ballyneal beofre my visit. I was still "wowed." I think that knowing the history of Riviera in advance made that visit even more special.

Regardless of my experiences, why don't you test your theory? Avoid this thread, come back and read it afterwards and make comments based on what you saw. Then you'll know if it might be better that way.
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

Tim Pitner

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Re: BALLYNEAL: IN WORDS AND PICTURES (1st-8th holes now posted)
« Reply #91 on: July 10, 2008, 04:17:05 PM »
Tom H,

I prefer the Doug Wright, "don't study" approach for a first-time visit.  My philosophy with golf courses is similar to my approach with movies, art, etc.  If you need the backstory to appreciate it, maybe it isn't all that great.  I prefer to just experience it, let it wash over me and then reflect on it, perhaps read up on it later.  Listen to your playing partners and caddies.  I assume you'll be playing more than one round so you'll have time to get to know the course and try different strategies.  With that said, I don't see any harm in looking at some photos.  I just wouldn't start studying holes from afar, unless you're really trying to make a score. 

Tom Huckaby

Re: BALLYNEAL: IN WORDS AND PICTURES (1st-8th holes now posted)
« Reply #92 on: July 10, 2008, 04:19:04 PM »
Gents:

Great stuff, many thanks.  I think in the end trying it a different way will be a very good test.  And I expect that after I play it I will have a bit to say. 

Now back to the dicussion of the course itself - sorry for the tangent.

TH

Adam Russell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BALLYNEAL: IN WORDS AND PICTURES (1st-8th holes now posted)
« Reply #93 on: July 10, 2008, 08:39:44 PM »
Quote
I played the course a month ago with a young man who was a low handicapper and he felt the same as you, carrying the bunker with ease.  He left himself in that awkward 40-50 yard range to the middle of the green, DOWNWIND, with the flag in the very back.  He tried to pitch it, knocked it over the green and made six, I think.  I would have PUTTED the ball from where he was with his drive, but he was still too busy thinking it should be an easy three from 50 yards.

DAMMIT, I knew I should have putted. But it WAS go time...  :D
The only way that I could figure they could improve upon Coca-Cola, one of life's most delightful elixirs, which studies prove will heal the sick and occasionally raise the dead, is to put rum or bourbon in it.” -Lewis Grizzard

Jon Spaulding

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BALLYNEAL: IN WORDS AND PICTURES (1st-8th holes now posted)
« Reply #94 on: July 10, 2008, 11:47:17 PM »
Gents:

Great stuff, many thanks.  I think in the end trying it a different way will be a very good test.  And I expect that after I play it I will have a bit to say. 

Now back to the dicussion of the course itself - sorry for the tangent.

TH

TH, please take in some of Kyle's free dope and get excited! The lack of pretense might be just as much a positive. And the fact that you'll be there with 3 "swig-mates" makes it all the more inviting. The place is sublime.....just go work on your draw 8).

KH; Nigel Tufnel asked me to have you to lose some of that saturation.....looks like the t-shirt of his exact inner structure.  :P I found the 8th to be a strong test on all shots; a confined tee shot which looks narrower than reality.....a half-blind second shot to the green, or the third which could be totally blind depending on the lay-up. And then we get to the green! For a relatively short 5, one feels a great deal of discomfort throughout, which is much welcomed.
You'd make a fine little helper. What's your name?

Kyle Henderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BALLYNEAL: IN WORDS AND PICTURES (1st-8th holes now posted)
« Reply #95 on: July 11, 2008, 11:45:39 AM »
Hole # 9 “362 yards”

Don’t be fooled by the modest total yardage. This hole is a tough one to par. The fairway is somewhat narrow relative to those found elsewhere on the course and pinches in dramatically past the second bunker seen on the right side, 260 yards from the back tees. Laying up to the wider part of the fairway (or playing into a stiff wind), one is left with a semi-blind, severely uphill approach. The tippy top of the clubhouse is seen to the left.


The fairway slopes towards the middle from either side, but this can add to the difficulty of the second shot as the ball is likely to be above or below one’s feet if their drive isn’t straight down the middle. Shots will not bounce onto the maintained turf from the edges of the bordering dunes.



Looking back, there is plenty of room past the narrow bit of fairway. With a helping wind, long hitters can blast one close to the green. While this particular green is fairly benign relative to some of Ballyneal’s other offerings, it features subtly defined shelves to challenge longish putts. Mound found short and right left of the green can repel indifferent approach shots, while bunkering at the rear and left rear prevent one from bailing out.


Encroaching thunder storms can make for spectacular sunsets in this neck of the world.


Discussion of the 9th's playing characteristics can also be found in the following thread.
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,35391.0.html
« Last Edit: July 11, 2008, 12:00:53 PM by Kyle Henderson »
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BALLYNEAL: IN WORDS AND PICTURES (1st-9th holes now posted)
« Reply #96 on: July 11, 2008, 05:49:20 PM »
This should be a good place to make sure once and for all.

 As I understand the routing, it was the decision to move a massive amount of dirt to create this hole that made the whole thing work. Sort of the key piece to the jigsaw puzzle.
 Tom. Confirm? Deny? Explain for someone's edification?
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Kyle Henderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BALLYNEAL: IN WORDS AND PICTURES (1st-9th holes now posted)
« Reply #97 on: July 11, 2008, 06:01:24 PM »
Adam just beat me to the punch, but...

According to Ran's profile, the 9th hole required quite a bit of cutting from, the left side dune to fill in what now constitutes the right portion of the fairway to make it playable. But looking at the landforms and vegetation bordering the hole, as Ran notes, it's hard to tell exactly where the earth was moved. While it's not my favorite hole on the course, it certainly exceeds 90% or more of the holes I've played (7 years of golfdom) and I can only imagine that it could have been botched quite badly by another firm. The detail work is first rate, as it is everywhere else at Ballyneal. It certainly provides variety - it is clearly distinguishable from the other holes while still sharing enough qualities with its brethren to ensure some sense of continuity.

Perhaps Mr. Doak can provide some details about the earthwork if he is able and willing.

For others that have played the course, how does number nine affect the flow of the course? Is it a welcome break between the lengthy 8th and 10th holes? Does its narrow nature provide fewer options than most of the other Ballyneal offerings? Would you prefer that the clubhouse was overlooking the 18th green or does the 9th provide plenty of entertainment?
« Last Edit: July 11, 2008, 06:03:44 PM by Kyle Henderson »
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: BALLYNEAL: IN WORDS AND PICTURES (1st-9th holes now posted)
« Reply #98 on: July 11, 2008, 09:23:55 PM »
To get this hole as it is today required a fair amount of cutting away of the dune to the left just before the landing area ... the fairway was lower in front of that dune, rose up that much more sharply, and then abruptly went back down to the bottleneck area of the fairway which is close to natural at today's elevation.

Calling this a "massive amount of earth" in the modern context would be wrong ... it required Dan Proctor about two weeks of pushing to get most of it down, and though we all love Dan, he is not the fastest dozer operator in the world.  If I had to hazard a guess (and it's been a while now) I would guess that we cut 8,000 to 10,000 cubic yards in that one spot, and spread it back out over the ground from there to the start of the fairway.  Bruce Hepner or maybe even Ron Farris would remember the details better than I do, I just told them to start pushing and where to!

As for the clubhouse, Kyle, if it overlooked the 18th green then the 18th hole would also overlook the clubhouse.  We had no idea what the finished clubhouse might look like, so we preferred it to be set back from the golf.

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BALLYNEAL: IN WORDS AND PICTURES (1st-9th holes now posted)
« Reply #99 on: July 11, 2008, 09:45:52 PM »
Although this hole seems tough to Mr. Henderson, I am keeping hole-by-hole stats of (most of) my rounds, and hole #9 is presently the clear leader as the easiest par 4, with a scoring average of 4.03.  I attribute the low scoring here to good strategy.

The best landing area is the flat area 230-255 yards off the tee, just left of the big fairway bunker.  The ball tends to feed down into this flat spot, especially from the left side.  A 3-wood or a big 5-wood would work fine, but I like teeing the ball low and hitting a very low driver, regardless of wind direction.  Teeing it low makes it easy to hit straight, and an aggressive but short swing regularly gives the ball enough pep to bounce up the hill to the flat spot.  From there it's wedge time.