[Adam Clayman]

Tom, I was recalling what Mr. Proctor told me. He too was not positive on the actual depth, but the implication was it was more than detectable.

[Mike Policano]

         
Jerry, I think the 15th is a modified punchbowl. The front seems much higher than the back. The front of the green acts more of a punchbowl than the back of the green. Also, back left is a low point. So, it is not like the punchbowls at Pradera.

By the way, you made the putt right?

[Jerry Kluger]

Okay Mike, rub it in - no I missed the putt - but I did make birdie at 16.

[John Mayhugh]

I really enjoyed the green & punchbowl effect on 15.  It was surprising how little club seemed to be required with a cooperative wind.  Most memorable thing for me on the hole was the little rattlesnake we say crossing in front of one of the forward tees.  I wasn't quick enough to get a picture and didn't think it was a good idea to try to get him to pose.

This photo shows the green contours a little better.  I could have stayed on that one and putted for hours.  Lots of interesting hole locations.

[Jim Colton]

John,

 I really enjoy both the par 3's on the back nine, and the green at 15 is a blast.  I faced a putt from the back left to the very front of the green where I had to hit my ball literally 5-feet up the fringe to have any chance of getting it close to the hole.  I can't say that I've ever had a putt like that before in my life.

[Kyle Henderson]

#16

Climbing up from the 15th green, one may head left to the “546 yard” tees or right to the tees ranging from 475-494 yards. The hole bends almost 90-degrees to the left at 200 yards from the green. This configuration makes it nearly impossible to reach the green in two from the longest teeing area barring favorable wind conditions. Tee shots that find a depression in the left fairway around 250 yards from the back tees will face a blind lay-up shot, often to a cavity found ~190yards from the green.

Seen in the foreground, this fairway cavity is a common destination, and leaves a testy, uphill long iron into the green from an uneven lie. Beyond the cavity, the fairway becomes very narrow from 150 to110 yards from the green’s center.


Some players will inevitably lay-up (or skull one from a downhill lie) just past the narrow patch into yet another hollow. From there, a wedge up the hill must be struck truly to carry the bunker found front and center greenside.


The green is a hair over 30 yards in depth and fairly benign with respect to its contours, aside from a significant false front that runs to the corner left and short of the putting surface. A small ridge separates the back right portion of the green from the front. I donated some of my leg flesh to a particularly prickly yucca plant while climbing the dune to capture this image.


From the Ballyneal website: A nice illustration of the wild fairway contours and the unusually constricted (by Ballyneal standards) portion of fairway.


The 16th is yet another hole that can yield a wide array of scores. Aggression is not always advisable. Choose wisely.

[Jim Nugent]

Does anyone have photos of the tee shot, from the tee box of number 16?  Also, considering the altitude, is this a par 4 or a par 5? 

[Jerry Kluger]

Jim: The hole plays uphill and all three days that we played it,  it was into the wind.  It is a wonderful risk/reward hole as the fairway is well contoured which usually causes a sidehill lie for your second shot.  If you try and play up the left side but don't hit it far enough, you have a blind uphill shot over the hill.  Laying up is often a wise choice, especially if the pin is on the front of the green where you have to be precise or if short, you are faced with a tough bunker shot versus a very steep downhill putt if you are above the pin.  I think this type of hole which makes you think about your second shot is great when it is late in the round and you either want a challenge or want to try and protect a score. 

[Kyle Henderson]

Jim: It's a par "5." I took my photos of #16 at dusk and I was racing to get to # 18 before dark, thus I never quite made it all of the way back to the tee to snap a shot from there. Hopefully someone can fill in the blank.

[RJ_Daley]

Maybe I haven't played there enough... But I really like this hole because I get the sense that the second shot here is reminiscent of the second shot at Wild Horse's 8th.  The long second is fun to play if you do it just right off the high left side and watch it bound onto the green.  Not that I pulled it off so much yet... 

[Adam Clayman]

Jim, 16 and 17 are illustrations of how Par, as a number, can be irrelevant. Playing in almost opposite directions, the 16th can easily yield a four for birdie but that makes making a par 4 on 17 very difficult.

Pat Brockwell is the only person I've seen come through with 4, 4.

Supposedly, this hole is a mirror image of a hole at Ballybunion. Also, legend has it the greensite changed three times in one day. It's evident with a slightly longer walk to 17 tee. I mean slight. 

[John Mayhugh]

Here's what the 16th hole looks like from the tee.  Plenty of room but sure doesn't feel that way from the tee.


This is a look back at the fairway from 100 yards or so short of the green.

[Wyatt Halliday]

I think #16 could be the most underrated, overlooked, and underappreciated hole at Ballyneal. There is not another hole at BN with a similar look from the tee. The fairway is very wide and faces you like a rumpled partition.

It is a short Par5 that moves left, so most players automatically hit it left to reduce the distance on the second shot. That is why the depression works so well. Yes it is a blind lay up, but the choices are not limited to just setting up a 190yard third shot. A more agressive line over the dune will leave the player with a 70-90yd uphill approach to the green. I realize that this isn't "stock" wedge distance for everyone, but why should every par5 allow the player to layup to his/her perfect distance?

I think the green is unique because its location and depth allow for it to fall off both front and back. It makes reaching and holding the green in two a difficult proposition.

Kyle-The shot of the green (3rd pic from the top) is taken from a great vantage point to show how the green sits atop the dune line. Any battle scars on the legs from that climb??

[Kyle Henderson]

Jim, 16 and 17 are illustrations of how Par, as a number, can be irrelevant. Playing in almost opposite directions, the 16th can easily yield a four for birdie but that makes making a par 4 on 17 very difficult.

Pat Brockwell is the only person I've seen come through with 4, 4.

Supposedly, this hole is a mirror image of a hole at Ballybunion. Also, legend has it the greensite changed three times in one day. It's evident with a slightly longer walk to 17 tee. I mean slight. 

In some ways 16 and 17 are mirror images. Not only do they play in the opposite directions, 17 also doglegs the opposite way and it will generally feature inverse wind conditions. The greensite for #16 is long ways from the clubhouse. It takes a couple of strong closing holes to cover all of that territory.

[Daryl David]

The 16th green has some devilish pin placements.  The right front corner can be terrifying for someone putting down the hill.  Very easy to putt right off the green or into the bunker.  I like the back right spot because you can use the small backboard, but don't get greedy.  If you go long the short sided pitch is a disaster waiting to happen if you hit it thin.

[Kyle Henderson]

Kyle-The shot of the green (3rd pic from the top) is taken from a great vantage point to show how the green sits atop the dune line. Any battle scars on the legs from that climb??

I got a viscious lancing, but no permanent damage.

That dune is immense and quite steep, even if one climbs up the ridge line. I wish I'd left myself with a little more daylight to shoot extra photos and soak in the air up there.

[Kyle Henderson]

I'm hoping to post a routing of the course at the end of this thread. Could somebody please link me to a satellite aerial or construction plans?

[John Mayhugh]

This isn't the best image, but here's what the routing looks like.  I took a photo of this in a small grill room in the clubhouse & the final one may be slightly different.  Wyatt Halliday & I were trying to squeeze in a few extra holes before dinner and needed a map so we could be sure to play as many holes as we could.  We ended up playing 10-12 & then using the far back tee on 13 to play 9, which made a pretty cool hole.  We talked briefly with Rupert O'Neal that evening and he was very familiar with the hole we made up. 


If I had that day to do over again, I would have begged for a 4 or 5PM dinner and then played until it got too dark to see.  Pretty magical out there.

[Scott Szabo]

#16 seems to play somewhat shorter than the yardage indicates, at least for me.  The play off the tee would lead the golfer down the left hand side of the fairway to shorten the hole, but there's a devilish little downslope starting about 200 yards or so out from the green that can make for a nearly impossible second shot from a severe downslope/sideslope.  I've found the play from the tee, at least for me, is more towards the center/right center of the fairway as the lies are much more level, and sometimes actually a bit uphill.

That bunker in front of the green surely sees quite a bit of play, but it's not all that difficult to play out of.  The ball tends to roll back into the flat at the base of the bunker. 

And Adam - I have gone 4-4 a couple of times.  In fact, the last time I was out, I finished 4-3-3 - nevermind that it was for a smooth 75!  The most important thing was it won the match for myself and my partner and the drinks tasted that much better!

[Kyle Henderson]

#17 “465 yards”
 A long par “4” that will brutalize one’s score when played into the wind, the 17th sweeps around from left to right. The bunker at the inside of the dogleg is 285 yards from the tee, 315 to carry.



The shot from the longest teeing area plays over a dune to a wide fairway. Staying left will leave a longer approach shot, but a relatively level stance from the same approximate elevation as the green. The right half of the fairway feeds steeply to the right, a ground feature that dominates the decision-making process on this hole.


My paternal figure is playing from the “445” yard tees and has a clearer view of the fairway.


The tees are well above the landing area, which helps take some of the bite out of this lengthy beast. The low spot short of the right fairway bunker is ~180 yards from the green’s center and plays blind. Anything in the bunker will require a pitch out (or worse).


Looking around the corner at approach. Long drives down the left center will get a boost forward and to the right and significantly shorten the approach shot.


A rearward peek shows the humps and bumps in the fairway.  The green is 40 yards deep and occasionally features a tough pin position on a hump/shelf at the back left corner. There is a small backstop at the right rear while the front of the green is wide open to accept long approaches. A birdie here is a definite bonus. Assuming darkness isn’t setting in, this is the point at which one starts to calculate how many more holes they can squeeze into their day after they finish the round.

[Adam Clayman]

The excellence of this hole is felt on every shot. The green is one of BN's best. Whether the shots are perfect or not, the opportunities to be creative, cunning and daring abound. I've hit several dream shots on this hole but my favorite one to attempt is the low running cut, landing short to get to the back right pin position. The most amazing was  driver from 270 from the right intermediate cut after an abysmal tee shot.

Also, this hole also taught me not to bet the architect on a 30 foot putt.

[BVince]

How I do very much enjoy this thread.  Wonderful pictures of a great layout.  I give my compliments to Tom and his crew.

[Kyle Henderson]

A few questions for those more exposed to golf courses around the world than I:

As Ballyneal is my only taste (to date) of the work produced by Renaissance Golf Design, I'm curious to know about the similarities and differences between their various products. Are there hints as to which associate played lead in each project (i.e. Are there features found on "Urbina-led" efforts that distinguish them, no matter how subtly, from "Hepner-led" projects) or does Doak's oversight ensure that the sites they work with and the sense of detail applied during the construction of each course is completely independent from their previous courses?

Photographs suggest that each "Doak" course has a unique "look" that reflects the unique environment it inhabits, while commentary on this disucssion board suggests that there are many commonalities in their playing characteristics (wildly undulating greens and ground features that challenge the non-aerial style of play). Is this a fair geralization?

Has anyone played a "links" course anything like Ballyneal? Pacific Dunes? Anything in Great Britain?

[Tom_Doak]

Kyle:

I'll answer your middle question.  I don't think you can tell which of my guys was the lead associate on any of our projects.  They do bring different strengths to the table, but the course isn't just the lead associate's ... it contains my thoughts and the work of somewhere between three and ten other guys who made contributions in the shaping and construction. 

So, while Jim ran the job at Pacific Dunes, Brian Slawnik and Bruce and Don and Tom Mead and Tony Russell and Ken Nice all had a hand in the shaping and therefore the "design" ... and while Bruce ran the job at Ballyneal, Eric Iverson and Brian Schneider and Kye Goalby and Slawnik and Don and several interns had a hand in the shaping there.  And it's a different mix every time out because I make sure to mix up the people involved, precisely because I don't want two or three different teams out there building their own versions of my ideas.

I said somewhere else (maybe much earlier in this very thread) that I don't think Ballyneal is really similar in style to any of the links courses I've seen overseas ... all sand dunes are different.

[Tom_Doak]

Oh, by the way, the map posted above is not the final routing, though maybe it is the final one we drew up.  Holes 5, 6 and 7 are different ... number five plays in the opposite direction, and #7 as drawn is playing to the tee on #8, not today's 7th green which I moved in the field.

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