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Jerry Kluger

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Re: Congressional (Pictures)
« Reply #25 on: July 03, 2008, 06:12:40 PM »
He redid the 18th into the 10th. I believe he was also involved in the redo of the greens prior to the Senior Open which I believe was in 1995.

JohnV

Re: Congressional (Pictures)
« Reply #26 on: July 03, 2008, 07:20:41 PM »
Who put the smiley face bunkers on #16?  Is that Rees' nose rather than the Principal's?

When I first looked at #10, I thought immediately of #16 at TPC River Highlands.  It looked so similar, not that I've been to either place, but somehow I was reminded of it from TV two weeks ago.

Jeff_Mingay

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Re: Congressional (Pictures)
« Reply #27 on: July 03, 2008, 09:10:07 PM »
Not surprisingly, Mike Clayton makes a great point here, above.

How about the bunker left off #16 tee? Interesting...
jeffmingay.com

Mike Bowline

Re: Congressional (Pictures)
« Reply #28 on: July 03, 2008, 09:55:12 PM »
thanks for the pics.

wish there were a user generated website that allowed pics to be uploaded with brief descriptions. my theory is that it wouldn't take long to create an encyclopedia of public and private courses with pictures. kind of a golf course wiki.

Try this site:

http://golfarchitecturepictures.com/

Bradley Anderson

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Re: Congressional (Pictures)
« Reply #29 on: July 04, 2008, 07:09:55 AM »
Robert wrote: "It would be interesting for one of our GCA history buffs to trace the origins of that maintenance meld as it relates to mowing scheme philosophy.  Would the path lead back to the Chicago School under RB Harris and his focus on design for maintenance?"

Robert,

Harris designed his fairway perimeters to run close to his bunkering. His average fairway width was around 50 yards wide. And as early as 1966 he was specifying bentgrass seed on fairways. But the irrigation contractor that he worked closely with, Scotty Stewart, designed a manual watering system that would only cover 30 yards wide. Subsequently the fairway mowing operations would move inwards to the throw of water and that left a gap between the fairway and the fairway bunkering.

Harris also designed an apron encircling the green that was cut by a tractor drawn 7 gang mower. When the equipment manufacturers developed alternatives to the tractor drawn gang mower, the apron cut was also contracted from 15 foot width to a 5 foot width, and this accentuated the hour-glass shaped mower pattern at the approach.

I don't know if we can say that Harris presided over a "Chicago-School" design philosophy - many of his associates went on to be very successful architects on their own, but to my knowledge none of those men continued with Harris' penchant for building huge saucer shaped bunkers. They did however build bunkers around greens that were, as Cornish puts it: "in proportion to one another and in harmony with the landscape", and many of those bunkers were very large.

I suppose that whole issue of scale was owing mostly to the big bulldozers that were being used in that era to build golf course features with the best economy.

Ed Oden

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Re: Congressional (Pictures)
« Reply #30 on: July 04, 2008, 08:12:31 PM »
A couple of questions for those that may know the course and its history well:

1.  How does the new 10th play compared to the old 18th?  Is it largely the same hole but in the reverse direction?  I'm guessing the new hole is shallower than the old 18th.

2.  Is the current fairway width/cut consistent with historical maintenance or a more recent practice in response to tournament play?

Thanks in advance.

Ed

Mike_Cirba

Re: Congressional (Pictures)
« Reply #31 on: July 04, 2008, 09:11:30 PM »
Ed,

Thanks for posting the pictures.  I hope you take the following comments as reflecting my own personal aesthetic and philosophy.

My lord, it looks like any Rees Jones course I've ever played or any classic course where he had free reign to "restore".

Is there really a reason that he has to make every single course he touches look exactly the same??  ::)

Any interest I ever had in playing there has now been extinguished.

The only hole that looks even remotely interesting is the left side of the 17th, and that's only because Rees couldn't build mounds and oval bunkers in the water.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2008, 09:27:55 PM by MikeCirba »

Ed Oden

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Re: Congressional (Pictures)
« Reply #32 on: July 05, 2008, 12:18:07 AM »
Mike, I hope you take the following comments in the spirit in which they are given.  While I certainly understand your anti-Rees Jones sentiments (I am by no means a fan of his work), I honestly think you are letting those sentiments cloud your perspective.  Look, I don't believe the Blue is the greatest thing since sliced bread either.  But it is a fine course nonetheless, with way more to like than dislike.  If you have reached a point where you have no desire to play a course of this quality, then I am saddened.  I guarantee you would enjoy playing there.

Ed

Jonathan Cummings

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Re: Congressional (Pictures)
« Reply #33 on: July 05, 2008, 06:33:17 AM »
Don't get use to what you see at Congo.  After completion of the current $40M explansion of the clubhouse the club will tear up and redo all 18 of the Blue's green complexes (after next year's AT&T) in prep for the 2011 Open.  The Blue has seen more redos and tweaks than any Open courses which suggests dissatisfaction with the design.

The best architectural trivia about Congressional concerns the first hole.  It was originally a 640 yard par 6 playing from the current first tee to (about) the current second green.  Par 6's are rare but Congo has to be the only course ever to have started with a par 6.

JC   

Andy Troeger

Re: Congressional (Pictures)
« Reply #34 on: July 05, 2008, 08:00:29 AM »
Jonathan,
I actually know of another course that used to start with a par six, it was about 600 yards long and uphill to a sliver of green in Mishawaka, IN. Called Eberhart-Petro, its a muny.

At some point they just called it a par five without changing the hole  ;D

JWinick

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Re: Congressional (Pictures)
« Reply #35 on: July 05, 2008, 08:05:16 AM »
Can anyone tell me anything about the Red Course?  I'm curious to see if their second 18 is a course you won't be disappointed playing.  

$40MM????  Wow.  Let see, 600 regular members equals a special assessment of $66,666.   Or 4 easy payments of $16,666.  What the heck was wrong with their clubhouse in the first place.  Certainly, one couldn't spend more than $1MM redoing the greens.   Anyone know how the membership has supported this capital investment?

Jonathan Cummings

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Re: Congressional (Pictures)
« Reply #36 on: July 05, 2008, 08:27:48 AM »
Wow - I would have thought a beginning par 6 was one-of-a-kind.  JC

Mike_Cirba

Re: Congressional (Pictures)
« Reply #37 on: July 05, 2008, 01:57:15 PM »
Ed,

Thanks for the thoughtful response to my somewhat hyperbolic assessment.

What I probably should have said is simply that seeing Congressional at the level of detail you provided has affirmed vaguely held stereotypes I've had prior, and although I'm sure you're right that I'd enjoy a round there, it certainly has moved down in my "someday must play" list.

I simply do not understand why every course Rees Jones touches has to end up looking like one of his, and all inevitably look the same.   It's one thing to do on his original designs....it's another when his work at Emmett's (and his dad's) Congressional looks exactly the same has his work on Tillinghast's Quaker Ridge and Ridgewood, etc.   Ugh.

Tim Copeland

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Re: Congressional (Pictures)
« Reply #38 on: July 05, 2008, 02:36:25 PM »
I see three types of different grass in the rough, clumps of grass clippings behind 2 green, a sidehill behind 18 that is struggling

But I am sure the super has it well in hand

Cute tee markers too...............
I need a nickname so I can tell all that I know.....

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Congressional (Pictures)
« Reply #39 on: July 05, 2008, 02:51:01 PM »
ahhh JWinick,

Methinks you don't know much about Congo.  The two courses are Blue and Gold, not Red.  The Gold course was designed by Trent Jones and George Fazio.

Besides the two courses, Congressional has 36 tennis courts, 2 swimming pools, 4 restaurants, a wellness center and even a bowling alley all serving closer to 1800 members, not 600.

$1M redoing the greens???  You are likely an order of magnitude off.  It won't be just the greens it'll be the entire green complexes.

JC

Ed Oden

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Re: Congressional (Pictures)
« Reply #40 on: July 05, 2008, 04:47:22 PM »
Mike, I understand entirely.  And thanks for taking my comments the right way.  I was a little concerned you might be offended.  Its funny, I had almost the opposite experience.  Based on what I'd read and seen, I expected to be underwhelmed by Congressional.  As it turned out, I actually liked both the Blue and the Gold quite a bit more than I thought I would.  I always find it interesting how much expectations (whether positive or negative) can affect your view on a course or club.

Ed

David Kelly

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Re: Congressional (Pictures)
« Reply #41 on: July 05, 2008, 05:12:00 PM »
Dean, I see your point. I just find it amusing when some of these courses get picked apart on this board. Makes me wonder what  frame of reference people are using.

The tenets of classic golf architecture is the frame of reference.  Read Ran's introduction to the website on the home page.
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Matt_Cohn

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Re: Congressional (Pictures)
« Reply #42 on: July 05, 2008, 06:04:27 PM »
Overton just hit a sand wedge into the 18th hole. Where will they put the new back tee for the US Open?

Jonathan Cummings

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Re: Congressional (Pictures)
« Reply #43 on: July 05, 2008, 06:46:36 PM »
Matt - I agree, but Overton's SW approach today was freakish.  The 18th tee is one hole they could push back for the Open another 60 yards to the Persimmon Tree Rd fence if they needed (the new "back" tee they built 4 years ago on 18 was then thought to be looooooong).  They haven't the real estate on most of the other holes to lengthen Congo so you can expect the 2011 Open to be about the same length you see today.  I expect the approach target values to be infinitely harder.

This just in - they just sent an email out to the AT&T committee chairmen (I'm will call) that tomorrow's tournament will start at 8am with threesomes and conclude at 2:30pm.

JC

Matt_Cohn

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Re: Congressional (Pictures)
« Reply #44 on: July 05, 2008, 06:49:16 PM »
Thanks.

What's an approach target value?

Jonathan Cummings

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Re: Congressional (Pictures)
« Reply #45 on: July 05, 2008, 07:24:11 PM »
Matt - Approach target values is a "treehouse/rater"-type term suggesting the richness in penalty the more conservative you are in choosing a place to put your approach. 

Greens complexes with High ATVs are usually greens with complicated multifaceted surfaces (and surrounds) with a wide range of penalities/benefits for the placement of you approach.  Smart superintendent setups will always take advantage of favored approach lines (lines of charm as Geoff cites) while maximizing the variation in penalty if you miss that line.

I'll bet Congo's new greens will closer resemble Avenel's facsinating new greens (erase anything you remember of the old Avenel!) than Congo's old greens.

JC

Matt_Cohn

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Re: Congressional (Pictures)
« Reply #46 on: July 05, 2008, 07:35:13 PM »
So Congo's greens are being erased, recontoured, and redesigned in a completely different style two summers before the US Open?

JWinick

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Re: Congressional (Pictures)
« Reply #47 on: July 05, 2008, 09:07:56 PM »
Jonathan:

That was my point.  I don't know much about Congressional - no need to hammer me over  the head with it.   So, how is the Gold Course?

Whether its 600 members of 1800, $40MM is still a big number.  Not quite sure how a clubhouse renovation and redoing the greens gets to it.   

Jonathan Cummings

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Re: Congressional (Pictures)
« Reply #48 on: July 05, 2008, 10:05:06 PM »
JWinick - what's your golf experience and where do you live?  I think you may not have an appreciation of the financial depths of some of the prominant clubs in America.  Congressional is one club which has near infinitely deep pockets.  JC

Ed Oden

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Re: Congressional (Pictures)
« Reply #49 on: July 05, 2008, 10:09:02 PM »
So, how is the Gold Course?

I thought it was solid, but not special.  The Blue is clearly superior.  While there are some really good holes on the Gold, there are also a few that I did not like very much.  The routing seemed a bit forced.  And most of the par 3s play too close to the same club for my taste.  On the other hand, you have to keep in mind that it is their second course.  I haven't been to many clubs with a better second course.  Hopefully someone who has played there more than my whopping one time can chime in.

Ed

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