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Matt_Cohn

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Name a major city whose best courses aren't its oldest courses
« on: July 02, 2008, 03:01:25 PM »
This was Ryan Simper's question on the California thread, but I didn't want to sidetrack that conversation, so I thought I'd move it over here.

The only candidate I can think of is maaaaybe Seattle? Chambers Bay, obviously, and I think they have a couple of additional good new courses. Otherwise I'm totally stumped.

So, name a city whose best courses aren't its oldest courses.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2008, 03:05:20 PM by Matt_Cohn »
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Kalen Braley

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Re: Name a major city whose best courses aren't its oldest courses
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2008, 03:07:24 PM »
Matt,

If you expand this into cities and its surrounding areas, I would put Salt Lake City out there.  Take the new privates in Park City which is 20 minutes away, throw in a few newer courses like South Mountain, Soldier Hollow, and Thanksgiving Point and pretty much all the best stuff here has been built in the last 15-20 years.
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Ed Oden

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Re: Name a major city whose best courses aren't its oldest courses
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2008, 03:08:04 PM »
Perhaps Dallas.  Almost certainly Austin.
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PCCraig

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Re: Name a major city whose best courses aren't its oldest courses
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2008, 03:10:58 PM »
Indianapolis.

Crooked Stick and Pete Dye dominate the best courses there. Can't think of an "old guard" club there.
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Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Name a major city whose best courses aren't its oldest courses
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2008, 03:12:13 PM »
Ed,

I was going to say most Texas cities would be in that boat.  

Las Vegas would, too.  And there would be a lot more if you allowed perhaps one exception, like Denver, excluding Cherry Hills.  

MSP, CHI, NYC, PHI, and most of the bigger east coast cities where the old private clubs concentrated probably have better old courses.  More of the newer, western cities would be at least a draw between old and new.  In many cases, the old established clubs have the history, but not much of a golf course and new clubs have a better course, but no history or old line charm.   Or, they are $100 public courses!
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David Whitmer

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Re: Name a major city whose best courses aren't its oldest courses
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2008, 03:15:16 PM »
Columbus, OH...Muirfield Village and The Golf Club are under or around 40 years old, as compared to Scioto, Columbus CC, and OSU Scarlet.

Atlanta, GA...Peachtree is about 40 or so years younger than East Lake.
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Cabell Ackerly

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Re: Name a major city whose best courses aren't its oldest courses
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2008, 03:15:54 PM »
It depends on how you define major city... some might not consider the following cities “major”, and which course in these areas is the best is always debatable

Columbus, OH
New Orleans, LA
Richmond, VA
Virginia Beach/Norfolk, VA
Birmingham, AL
Phoenix, AZ
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Phil_the_Author

Re: Name a major city whose best courses aren't its oldest courses
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2008, 03:20:33 PM »
Ed,

IMO, Dallas doesn't qualify as Brook Hollow has been, and continues to be, the finest course in Dallas and one of the best in all of Texas. It opened for play in 1921/22. Likewise DCC which Tilly renovated and added nine holes to in 1920 & Cedar Crest which he designed in 1916 and was once private and is now a public course.
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Chris_Clouser

Re: Name a major city whose best courses aren't its oldest courses
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2008, 03:32:08 PM »
Ditto Pat Craig on Indy.  And if the 12th most populous city in the country isn't a major city, then you need to rethink what major is...

Old courses that people always talk about though are Broadmoor, Highlands and Country Club of Indianapolis.  Of those only Broadmoor holds a candle to what has been built in and around the city in the last fifty years.  If you really are sticking to within the city limits, The Fort is your best course in Indy.  You get outside of that the debate expands.  Personally I find Broadmoor generally overrated and it is propped up because of two things, it is a Ross design and it hosted a PGA Senior event for a few years.  If you eliminate the tourney from its history and leave the same course but designed by someone like Bill Diddel, it becomes an afterthought like Highlands and CCI. 
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Ed Oden

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Re: Name a major city whose best courses aren't its oldest courses
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2008, 03:38:50 PM »
Philip, I hedged my reference to Dallas with a "perhaps" solely because of Brook Hollow.  I agree with you that it is terrific.  As for DCC and Cedar Crest, I'm not sure they were considered among the best courses in the area when I left a decade ago.  Have they been substantially improved since then to compete with the current Dallas golf landscape?  Maybe someone with more recent knowledge than I possess can chime in.

Ed
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Kalen Braley

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Re: Name a major city whose best courses aren't its oldest courses
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2008, 03:50:12 PM »
I read the question and saw "best courseS ."

So if one city's best 10 courses consist of 3 old and 7 new, then I'm guessing the newer courses win out.  But perhaps thats just one way to look at it.
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Mike Benham

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Re: Name a major city whose best courses aren't its oldest courses
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2008, 04:01:19 PM »
Bandon, OR

Pebble Beach, CA
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Tom Huckaby

Re: Name a major city whose best courses aren't its oldest courses
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2008, 04:09:38 PM »
San Jose, CA.

Newish:  Cinnabar Hills, Boulder Ridge.
Oldish:  Santa Teresa, Almaden, San Jose CC

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Mike Hendren

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Re: Name a major city whose best courses aren't its oldest courses
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2008, 04:15:16 PM »
Arguably,

Nashville
Memphis
Chattanooga
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Mike Mosely

Re: Name a major city whose best courses aren't its oldest courses
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2008, 04:23:04 PM »
Williamsburg VA

Pinehurst Region

Myrtle Beach SC

Austin Texas

Sante FE NM...Albuquerque, NM in fact.
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rjsimper

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Re: Name a major city whose best courses aren't its oldest courses
« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2008, 04:28:53 PM »
Just went back and re-read and realized that, as I was about to accuse you of changing the subject, that I made the mistake of saying "city" when I meant to say "state"

Still, the same underlying factors would prevail...that states that were largely undeveloped around the golden age of architecture (Arizona, New Mexico, Texas) wouldn't really qualify here for my point.

But when looking at places like California, New York, North Carolina, New Jersey, PA, etc...a pecking order of the great courses from 1930 would look very similar to a pecking order of today.

I suspect if you fast forward another 80 years, states like Nebraska, Oregon, Wisconsin, etc will look back on today's rankings and find themselves with similar courses at the top of their lists

And this is also interesting not only to see what cities come up, but also what some of you define as "major"

Could also rephrase this and say "Name a city whose golden age courses are not currently its best courses" and that really gets you thinking...it's easy to find a locale with great golf that nobody even thought about in 1925, but find a city with one of the GCA grandfathers' work that has since been eclipsed by newer courses.

Being from LA, I am used to having the old clubs around.  But, having moved to an area that mixes old-world settlement with new "get me out of NY" boomtown features shared with places like Phoenix, Vegas, and Austin, it's interesting to me that with ALL the development around here, people still talk about the best courses as:

Raleigh CC (1948...not the golden age, but still Raleigh's second oldest private club)
Hope Valley CC (1926 - Ross)
Pinehurst
Pine Needles
Mid Pines

Granted, this isn't an indestructable list, but here I am in an area with hundreds of courses built over the last 80 years, and it's best courses are still its oldest ones.

Same holds true in LA/California. 
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John Moore II

Re: Name a major city whose best courses aren't its oldest courses
« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2008, 04:43:12 PM »
Quote from: Mike Mosely on July 02, 2008, 04:23:04 PM
Williamsburg VA

Pinehurst Region

Myrtle Beach SC

Austin Texas

Sante FE NM...Albuquerque, NM in fact.

Not certain I agree with saying the best courses in the Pinehurst area are not its older ones (not to mention, Pinehurst is far from any definition of a major city). #2 and Pine Needles are among the oldest around and are certainly the best. Though I suppose if we broke it down to the 10 best, the majority would have been opened in the past 30-40 years.
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Michael Wharton-Palmer

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Re: Name a major city whose best courses aren't its oldest courses
« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2008, 04:44:02 PM »
St Loius?
Old Warson is way overated, and Bellrive is probably the best in the city
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Mark Arata

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Re: Name a major city whose best courses aren't its oldest courses
« Reply #18 on: July 02, 2008, 04:49:10 PM »
Have to disagree about New Orleans on two fronts.....

One: It most certainly is not a major city, it is full of major criminals and political screwups......

Two: The best course in town by far is Metairie CC, and that is the oldest course.
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Ed Oden

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Re: Name a major city whose best courses aren't its oldest courses
« Reply #19 on: July 02, 2008, 05:27:03 PM »
Quote from: Ryan_Simper on July 02, 2008, 04:28:53 PM
Could also rephrase this and say "Name a city whose golden age courses are not currently its best courses" and that really gets you thinking...it's easy to find a locale with great golf that nobody even thought about in 1925, but find a city with one of the GCA grandfathers' work that has since been eclipsed by newer courses.

Ryan, I generally agree with your point.  But there will be some exceptions.  I still say Dallas arguably qualifies.  Philip Young has described Tilly's work there.  So you have a golden age history that includes the 1927 PGA at Cedar Crest.  You could have a good debate whether those courses are better than Dallas National and other newer designs.  How about the Oklahoma City area (particularly if you include Stillwater)?  Is OCCC (Maxwell I believe) still considered as good as Oak Tree or Karsten Creek?

Ed
 
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John Kavanaugh

Re: Name a major city whose best courses aren't its oldest courses
« Reply #20 on: July 02, 2008, 05:40:53 PM »
Quote from: Michael Wharton-Palmer on July 02, 2008, 04:44:02 PM
St Loius?
Old Warson is way overated, and Bellrive is probably the best in the city

Sorry,  St. Louis CC is way better.

I'll go with Loisville given that Valhalla is better than some Tille also rans.
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Jay Kirkpatrick

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Re: Name a major city whose best courses aren't its oldest courses
« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2008, 05:46:53 PM »
Phoenix

Orlando
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K. Krahenbuhl

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Re: Name a major city whose best courses aren't its oldest courses
« Reply #22 on: July 02, 2008, 05:51:21 PM »
Austin Texas was the first that came to my mind.  I'd take AGC over just about anything that I've played in TX.
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Andy Troeger

Re: Name a major city whose best courses aren't its oldest courses
« Reply #23 on: July 02, 2008, 06:37:34 PM »
Quote from: Chris_Clouser on July 02, 2008, 03:32:08 PM
Ditto Pat Craig on Indy.  And if the 12th most populous city in the country isn't a major city, then you need to rethink what major is...

Old courses that people always talk about though are Broadmoor, Highlands and Country Club of Indianapolis.  Of those only Broadmoor holds a candle to what has been built in and around the city in the last fifty years.  If you really are sticking to within the city limits, The Fort is your best course in Indy.  You get outside of that the debate expands.  Personally I find Broadmoor generally overrated and it is propped up because of two things, it is a Ross design and it hosted a PGA Senior event for a few years.  If you eliminate the tourney from its history and leave the same course but designed by someone like Bill Diddel, it becomes an afterthought like Highlands and CCI. 

Of the older Indianapolis clubs I've played I actually like CCI the best, I'm surprised its not more highly thought of. Meridian Hills and Broadmoor would be 2 and 3 and fairly close together, then Highland and Hillcrest behind them. The Fort does beat all of them, most of them pretty handily IMO. Wolf Run and Crooked Stick are further ahead yet.

This is kind of an odd thread. Any city that has really high level Golden Age courses (most of the NE and California) still have those courses at the top. Everyplace else the modern stuff is an improvement (in many cases there are no Golden Age courses of note).

Lets face it, no matter how good Sebonack or Frair's Head may be, I have a hard time believing people would actually rank them higher than NGLA or Shinnecock even if one or both deserved it, based on the history of the older two clubs. That's making absolutely NO value judgment to any of the four having never been there. Will Calusa Pines or some other Florida course ever dethrone Seminole? I kind of doubt it, although I've heard a few knowledgable folks say they liked Calusa better. That is the benefit of GolfWeek separating the eras. I don't mean for there to really be an answer to either scenario, just used course names to provide examples.

Makes for fun discussion in any case. The newbies in Albuquerque are indeed the best, but even the old ones were built in the 1960's generally.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2008, 06:40:18 PM by Andy Troeger »
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mike_beene

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Re: Name a major city whose best courses aren't its oldest courses
« Reply #24 on: July 02, 2008, 07:04:20 PM »
I will argue against Dallas.Newer courses Dallas Nat,Gentle Creek and Cowboys vs Brook Hollow, Lakewood, Northwood,Preston Trail,DAC Blue,Oak Cliff and Cedar Crest.That's my top ten in no order but the older dominates.
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