Lahinch versus Ballyneal

[Jeff Tang]

I really like the ninth at Ballyneal.  For a straightaway par four it brings a lot of options into play.  While I haven't seen it, I've been told downwind it can be driven.  For me the right play is a lay up into the fairway but with a three wood the right bunker is not out of play especially given the firm turf.  However, you also don't want to be too far back as you'll be blind, so precision is very important on this hole off the tee. 

It really makes you think off the tee.  The green is structured so that you can feed the ball off the back of the green towards a back hole location.  I hadn't thought of running the ball up on the green from the fairway but given how the fairway slopes down towards the green I can see this being a viable way of getting the ball back to the hole.

[Wyatt Halliday]

The abrupt nature of the fairway contours at Ballyneal are so dramatic that you can hit all 14 fairways and potentially have 12 blind approaches. Does Lahinch have this type of severity?

[Doug Wright]

The abrupt nature of the fairway contours at Ballyneal are so dramatic that you can hit all 14 fairways and potentially have 12 blind approaches. Does Lahinch have this type of severity?

Wyatt,

There are blind approaches to Lahinch but I don't think the fairway contours at Lahinch are as extreme as Ballyneal (there is total blindness at the Lahinch Dell Hole, however). I don't think "Lahinch" when I play Ballyneal. Lahinch is much more narrow than Ballyneal. I'm not sure there is a good comparison with GB&I courses--maybe some Royal Dornoch, maybe some Ballybunion--I need to think about this one a bit . I've not played Kingsbarns--is there any similarity?   

[Wyatt Halliday]

[I've not played Kingsbarns--is there any similarity?   

Help from the group on this please, I have yet to play Kingsbarns.

Doug,

After some thought, I think Ballyneal also offers the opportunity to NOT have a blind shot (or approach) on nearly every hole....IF the correct line is taken. Perhaps 6 or 16 defeats this??

[Doug Sobieski]

Doug,

Your buddy must be long-hitting indeed.  I forego the driver simply because it leaves me with about 50-60 yards (on a calm day) with a very awkward stance.  Anything from right of center leaves an awkward pitch with the dropoff on that side of the green.

My choice of play is to lay up short and left of the centerline bunker, leaving about 120 or so in.  There is a flatter sport short of the green from that line in to bounce it in if the greens are super firm.  I tend to hit the ball lower with spin, requiring a bounced in approach, as the firm greens don't allow time for the ball to check.

In posting responses regarding Ballyneal, it struck me how defensive I play some of the shorter holes at Ballyneal.  Maybe that's why I struggle to score really well there.

Scott:

Him being a long hitter is an understatement (I've mentioned on here before that I've seen him hit 7, 8, AND 9 at Sand Hills in the same round). On 14, I've gotten tired of having 50-60 yards in and having such an awkward shot. I think the more I play it, the more I'll lay up short of the bunker, so like you say you can bounce it on from that flat area short. I can't get it down their like my buddy can where he's just got a greenside pitch.

12 is the one that I need to figure out. I can't come up with a decent place to drive it to attack that hole. It's one of the most confounding 350 yard holes I've ever played. I make way more bogies than birdies there. Yuck.

[Daryl David]

Doug,

12 is a puzzle.   For a long time I thought the play was to stay as left as possible on the drive to avoid running down into the lower fairway and thus eliminate the blind second.  Then I realized I was scoring just as well from the blind shot as when I had a good look at the flag.  The key is distance control on the second and less direction.  The bowls on the green will correct directional errors if you nail the right distance.   

[J_ Crisham]

Lahinch and Ballyneal are two great golfing experiences. I have had the pleasure of playing Lahinch many times and Ballyneal just last week. Rupert O'Neal was a great host and very informative. My observation was the rolling terrain is similar as is the firmness of the fairways. The major differences are obvious . The green complexes at Ballyneal are as demanding as any I have seen-right up there with Oakland Hills and Augusta. Ballyneal is a sanctuary of sorts. It is quite a journey-but well worth it. Great food , lodging, and comaraderie. Other than SH and Cherry Hills the opportunity to play world class courses as compared to what you can drive to from Lahinch is lacking in my opinion. Lots of good golf in CO but you don't have RCD,RP, Ballybunion,etc. Two great places to visit-BN and Lahinch.        Jack

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

I have a love for both courses, but am finding it difficult to link them.  Ballyneal certainly provides a links experience, but is a very different animal.  I would think that County Louth might be a better comparison.  My favorite hole in Ireland is its 13th. 
This in no way takes away from so many of the great holes to be found in Ireland.  As for Ballyneal--my post provides the answers--Ballyneal is the Deal--I can see how the spectacular nature of 8 makes some take 9 for granted--I know some who used to think the same way about 10 at CPC .

[Bill Gayne]

I've never been to Ballyneal but have been to Lahinch and Ireland several times. So I can't offer anything in the comparison of the two. With that being said, I've been to Bandon and I really think the conditions in Bandon are extremely similar to Ireland. Both have a cool damp climate on the edge of the ocean with similar turf grasses. I would expect Holyoke to be a drier and warmer climate than either Bandon or Ireland. Although looking at the pictures of Ballyneal on the other thread it looks very green.

[Tom_Doak]

I've been asked more than once to come up with a course in Britain & Ireland that is most similar to Ballyneal, and I've never been able to come up with one that I thought was an ideal comparison.

Ballyneal's greens are bigger, more undulating and less structured than most in the UK, but they tie into the surrounding terrain very well and so they present a lot of wild options for approach shots and especially for shots around the green, and that is probably where I place more of my concentration than other architects past or present.  There are a few greens at Machrihanish (1, 2, 3, 7, 8, 12) which are probably the closest I've seen to similar in nature.

Lahinch has many blind shots if you drive out of position, too, but the scale and frequency of undulations is not quite the same.  That's the great thing about sand dunes, they are all different!!!

[kconway]

What about the greens at Royal Cinque Ports, I recall these as very wild and undulatiing.

[Scott Szabo]

Doug,

12 is a puzzle.   For a long time I thought the play was to stay as left as possible on the drive to avoid running down into the lower fairway and thus eliminate the blind second.  Then I realized I was scoring just as well from the blind shot as when I had a good look at the flag.  The key is distance control on the second and less direction.  The bowls on the green will correct directional errors if you nail the right distance.   

Daryl,

If the green is really firm, as it has been the past few times I've played, the only option is playing down the left side of the fairway, bringing the bunker complex into play, or playing up short and left of the green if playing from the lower fairway.

But of course, the wind really dictates how the hole should be played.

I understand that you played a round at the member-guest with a buddy of mine.  Hope he treated you well!

Scott

[Scott Whitley]

I was fortunate enough to visit Ballyneal just over a week ago and play six extremely memorable rounds.  It exceeded all my expectations.  For what it's worth, I'll offer the Irish course it reminded me of most: the Sandy Hills links at Rosapenna.  The property at Ballyneal is just so expansive that there is no really close comparison, IMO, but Sandy Hills perhaps comes closest to having the feel of holes routed through wild dunescapes, large greens, lots of fairway undulations (to put it mildly) and linksland as far as the eye can see.

[Jim Tang]

I think it is very difficult to compare great golf courses with each other.  I have had the privledge of playing Ballyneal, and partly why it is great is because it is unique.  All great golf courses are.  That is what sets them apart from the countless mid level golf courses scattered about the country, many of which seem very similar to each other.  Ballyneal is special.  You recognize that as soon as you drive on to the property.  Pacific Dunes is that way too.  I am sure places like Sand Hills and Pine Valley and others also have that.

In July I'll be playing Lahinch, Ballyneal and Sand Hills all within 10 days of each other.  It will be interesting to experience all of those courses within a short time frame, but I fully expect each layout to have its own feel, vibe and experience.  That is why golf is so great.

[Jonathan Cummings]

I was fortunate enough to visit Ballyneal just over a week ago and play six extremely memorable rounds.  It exceeded all my expectations.  For what it's worth, I'll offer the Irish course it reminded me of most: the Sandy Hills links at Rosapenna.  The property at Ballyneal is just so expansive that there is no really close comparison, IMO, but Sandy Hills perhaps comes closest to having the feel of holes routed through wild dunescapes, large greens, lots of fairway undulations (to put it mildly) and linksland as far as the eye can see.

Scott - methinks I just felt a cringe from Doakland high on the Richter Scale....

[Scott Whitley]

It wasn't meant as an insult in any way.  I'm just saying that of all the links courses in Ireland, Sandy Hills has perhaps the most similar natural duneland, sense of total isolation, space between holes, etc.  (I was also reminded a couple of times on the back nine of Strandhill, which has some wild fairway undulations in places).  A couple of members we met at BN were suggesting Ballybunion Cashen, and I can see that in a few places too I guess.  In any event, I agree with the sentiment above that Ballyneal is totally unique and is not really like any Irish links course.  Among other things, it is just so expansive.  (OT: I guess I think Sandy Hills is a better course than some here.  I would not put it in Ballyneal's league, but I rather liked it).   

[Jim Colton]

Bumping for Mr. Sims.  I believe he has a fresh take on this subject.

[Ben Sims]

Coltrain,

I already addressed the issue in the "my first GCA trip" thread.  I asked Tom directly what his thoughts were.  I expect to summarily shot down in a flaming mass, but it's worth a try. 

For those of you wondering what we're referring to.  I said on the 15th tee at Ballyneal, "Hey guys, this reminds me of the Dell at Lahinch."

Your thoughts?

[Jack_Marr]

It wasn't meant as an insult in any way.  I'm just saying that of all the links courses in Ireland, Sandy Hills has perhaps the most similar natural duneland, sense of total isolation, space between holes, etc.  (I was also reminded a couple of times on the back nine of Strandhill, which has some wild fairway undulations in places).  A couple of members we met at BN were suggesting Ballybunion Cashen, and I can see that in a few places too I guess.  In any event, I agree with the sentiment above that Ballyneal is totally unique and is not really like any Irish links course.  Among other things, it is just so expansive.  (OT: I guess I think Sandy Hills is a better course than some here.  I would not put it in Ballyneal's league, but I rather liked it).   

A fairway at Strandhill...

[Jack_Marr]

doesn't seem to have worked... here's the link

http://bp3.blogger.com/_qiSDT5v4Nw0/R_Czhn9v1TI/AAAAAAAAACo/en1kvmEH1vE/s1600-h/Strandhill5.jpg