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rjsimper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: California 1930
« Reply #75 on: July 07, 2008, 04:16:15 PM »
Tom,

What is your methodology for determining what does and does not make your list?
Re: Del Paso, not that I know anything about it, but wasn't the point of your thread what was great in 1930, not what impressions might be now?  SPDB's citation seems telling.

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: California 1930
« Reply #76 on: July 07, 2008, 04:18:59 PM »
My impression is Beresford was not one of Ross's better courses and not one of the better courses in NorCal. What I've seen of old Del Paso was uninspiring. 



Using similar rationale, both of these are candidates for removal from the list:


Olympic (Ocean) - 1924 Watson, 1927 Whiting

Sharp Park - 1929 Mackenzie
"... and I liked the guy ..."

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: California 1930
« Reply #77 on: July 07, 2008, 05:04:11 PM »
My impression is Beresford was not one of Ross's better courses and not one of the better courses in NorCal. What I've seen of old Del Paso was uninspiring. 

I would bet that Del Paso was more highly regarded than 75% of the courses on your list. If it were a narrower list, its exclusion might be debateable, but you don't seem to exclude any courses, which is why its omission is dubious.

G.O. West and James Hartness wrote in Golf Illustrated in October 1926 that "Del Paso boasts as fine fairways as there are in the state," it also began hosting regular tournaments, including the NCGA Championships almost as soon as it debuted.

You might not have been been impressed, but those who were around at the time felt differently.

TEPaul

Re: California 1930
« Reply #78 on: July 07, 2008, 07:11:35 PM »
"I want to learn more about California golf architecure history."


Tom MacW:

Excellent. Capital idea indeed. Would you like to learn more about Merion and Max Behr and Joshua Crane too? How about the philosophies of J.H. Taylor on architecture? What about Joe Roseman and the history of golf agronomy and maintenance practices?

TEPaul

Re: California 1930
« Reply #79 on: July 07, 2008, 07:24:26 PM »
"It could be argued California in 1930 was the zenith of American golf architecture."


It sure could. It would also be extremely interesting to track why and how and when that remarkable and potentially "out of the box" California free-thinking amongst a select few got truncated and essentially misunderstood and under-appreciated or frankly just missed, as time went by.

In my opinion, that relatively loose-connected brain trust out there at that time just may've been the ultimate expression of the "horse leading the cart" in golf architecture. Somehow the horse got waylaid and the result for the next half a century or so became the "cart leading the horse" in golf architecture.

Who was the horse?

Who was the cart? 


;)

Thomas MacWood

Re: California 1930
« Reply #80 on: July 07, 2008, 08:03:53 PM »
My impression is Beresford was not one of Ross's better courses and not one of the better courses in NorCal. What I've seen of old Del Paso was uninspiring. 

I would bet that Del Paso was more highly regarded than 75% of the courses on your list. If it were a narrower list, its exclusion might be debateable, but you don't seem to exclude any courses, which is why its omission is dubious.

G.O. West and James Hartness wrote in Golf Illustrated in October 1926 that "Del Paso boasts as fine fairways as there are in the state," it also began hosting regular tournaments, including the NCGA Championships almost as soon as it debuted.

You might not have been been impressed, but those who were around at the time felt differently.

Sean
I disagree. I don't think it was the highly rated. I've collected six or seven articles dedicated California golf from this period and Del Paso is only mentioned in one article, and I have my doubts the author played the course. Its major design feature was tree lined fairways. I've quite a bit of information on the course, and I'm not impressed. Fowler was called into redesign the course in the early 20s, but I have my doubts his ideas were ever carried out. The aerial I have of the course in 1930 shows less the twenty bunkers, that look like they belong on 1910 public course.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2008, 08:08:18 PM by Tom MacWood »

Thomas MacWood

Re: California 1930
« Reply #81 on: July 07, 2008, 08:11:39 PM »
TE
William Watson was the most important golf architect in California for the first 20 to 25 years of the 20th C.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2008, 08:14:24 PM by Tom MacWood »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: California 1930
« Reply #82 on: July 08, 2008, 12:25:51 AM »
Tom,

A few random thoughts and questions.

I think the first course at Brookside was 1928. 

The Griffith Park website lists Thomas as the designer of the Harding Course (1925) but lists Bendelow for the Wilson Course (1914.)  I wonder if there was a Bendelow course there first? Geoff or someone else must have the correct information somewhere, but just thought I'd bring this to your attention for completeness sake.

In GAA George Thomas lists attributions for the holes pictured or drawn. 
-- The holes pictured from LACC North are listed as "Thomas" as opposed to "Thomas and Bell" or "Bell and Thomas."
-- La Cumbre is mostly listed as "Thomas and Bell" but both a photograph and a diagram of the 16th are listed as by Peter Bryce.

Speaking of Willie Watson, there are a few intersting photos of Lake Arrowhead in CAA, but I am not sure whether it was 9 or 18 holes in 1930. 

Here are a few newspaper articles discussing some of these courses, by Geoff Shackelford and Daniel Wexler.  Thanks to these two gentlemen for bringing much of this nearly forgotten history forward.

http://articles.latimes.com/2007/apr/09/sports/sp-design9

http://www.latimes.com/sports/golf/la-sp-history9apr09,0,1740845.story

http://articles.latimes.com/2007/apr/09/sports/sp-griffith9

 
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Jim Nugent

Re: California 1930
« Reply #83 on: July 08, 2008, 12:42:12 AM »
Can anyone tell me about El Caballero?  I played a course with that name in 1986, located in Tarzana.  But from what I read, RTJ designed it in 1957.  Was there an earlier rendition there, or is the one listed in some of these posts an entirely different site? 

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: California 1930
« Reply #84 on: July 08, 2008, 12:57:54 AM »
Same club, different course.  The old El Cab is now a neighborhood.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Re: California 1930
« Reply #85 on: July 08, 2008, 01:34:55 AM »
"TE
William Watson was the most important golf architect in California for the first 20 to 25 years of the 20th C."


Uh huh.  :P How many courses did Watson design in the first 20 years of the 20th century in California and what were they?  Depending on what in the world you think you mean by "important" by 1930 I sure doubt he was considered to be the most important architect in California any more than HH Barker was considered to be the second best architect in America in 1910.   ::)

Perhaps Willie's greatest contribution to American architecture was helping the ultra interesting Robert Hunter get a start in architecture after a pretty interesting foundation in studying and familiarizing himself with architecture here and abroad in the first 20 years of the 20th century.  ;)

I mean seriously, how interesting was Robert Hunter? Was he part of that freethinking conceptual brain trust in architecture consisting of Behr, Mackenzie et al? Probably.

Who can say his "The Links" in 1926 was not one of the most interesting and seminal books on golf course architecture ever done? Or was he just one of those "amateur novices" who had to call on somebody else to tell him what to do and what to think and what to write?
« Last Edit: July 08, 2008, 01:39:16 AM by TEPaul »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: California 1930
« Reply #86 on: July 08, 2008, 02:12:18 AM »
When you see a list like this IMO it gives you a better perspective of who was doing what, especially in golf course rich California. It could be argued California in 1930 was the zenith of American golf architecture. And when you see how important little discussed Billy Bell or William Watson were to the California golf scene it gives you an appreciation for their importance in the history of golf architect.

Cypress Point - 1928 MacKenzie/Hunter

Pebble Beach - 1919 Neville/Grant, 1920 Fowler, 1927 Mackenzie, 1929 Egan/Hunter/et al

Pasatiempo - 1929 Mackenzie

Riviera - 1926 Thomas/Bell

Los Angeles (North) - 1921 Fowler, 1927 Thomas/Bell

Bel-Air - 1927 Thomas/Bell/Neville

Ojai Valley - 1924 Thomas/Bell

San Francisco - 1918 Neville?, 1920 Tillinghast, 1930 Bell

Olympic (Lake) - 1924 Watson, 1927 Whiting

Olympic (Ocean) - 1924 Watson, 1927 Whiting

Meadow Club - 1927 Mackenzie/Hunter

Stanford - 1930 Bell/Thomas

Monterey Peninsula - 1925 Raynor, 1926 Hunter/MacKenzie/Egan

Lake Merced -  1922 Lock, 1929 Mackenzie

Califronia GC of SF - 1918 Lock, 1920 Macan, 1927 Mackenzie/Hunter

Harding Park - 1925 Watson

Sharp Park - 1929 Mackenzie

Orinda - 1925 Watson

Sonoma - 1927 Whiting/Watson?

Castlewood - 1927 Bell

Claremont - 1903 Smith, 1920 Watson, 1928 Mackenzie

Sehouyah - 1914 ?, 1920 Fowler

Berkeley - 1920 Watson/Hunter

Valley Club of Montecito - 1929 Mackenzie/Hunter

Lakeside - 1924 Behr

Montebello Park - 1928 Behr

La Cumbre - 1917 Bendelow, 1925 Thomas/Bell

Royal Palms - 1925 Bell

Lake Elsinore - 1925 Dunn

Lake Norconian - 1928 Dunn

Griffith Park - 1923 Thomas

Fox Hills - 1927 Thomas/Bell

Sunset Fields (No.1 + No.2) - 1927 Bell

El Caballero - 1928 Bell

Annandale - 1906 Watson/O'Neil, 1919 Watson, 1923 Bell/Croke

Pasadena - 1920 O'Neil/Croke

Brookside - 1930 Bell

Midwick - 1911 Macbeth, 1929 Bell

Rancho - 1921 Fowler

Wilshire - 1919 Macbeth

Hillcrest - 1922 Watson

Hacienda - 1920 Watson

Victoria - 1903 Heath, 1918 Fovargue, 1924 Behr

Flintridge - 1921 Watson

San Diego - 1922 Watson

Rancho Santa Fe - 1929 Behr

Agua Caliente - 1929 Bell


I find this discussion very interesting as I know nothing about California golf - especially the stuff about Billy Bell.  There doesn't seem to have been any mention of Thomas's idea of a courses within a course.  This strikes me as perhaps the most revolutionary design concept to come out of California even though it seems to have never really taken off. 

I find it impossible to believe that all these courses were great and/or significant back in 1930.  I think someone said that the list may as well include everything because it isn't nearly discriminating enough. 

Ciao
« Last Edit: July 08, 2008, 03:13:21 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Thomas MacWood

Re: California 1930
« Reply #87 on: July 08, 2008, 06:13:12 AM »
What were the best courses in California in 1930?

I wanted to look at the development of California golf architecture but I wasn't sure what date to choose. I chose 1930 because I thought that would be the highpoint but I'm willing to change it.

Sean
This was the original question. I'm not necessarily looking for great, but good, very good and great. If the list is not discriminating enough I'll be glad to remove whatever courses that aren't in that league. If anything I think some would say I've been too discriminating. IMO California golf in 1930 was as good architecturally as any place in the world.

« Last Edit: July 08, 2008, 06:30:07 AM by Tom MacWood »

Thomas MacWood

Re: California 1930
« Reply #88 on: July 08, 2008, 06:34:22 AM »
"TE
William Watson was the most important golf architect in California for the first 20 to 25 years of the 20th C."


Uh huh.  :P How many courses did Watson design in the first 20 years of the 20th century in California and what were they?  Depending on what in the world you think you mean by "important" by 1930 I sure doubt he was considered to be the most important architect in California any more than HH Barker was considered to be the second best architect in America in 1910.   ::)

Perhaps Willie's greatest contribution to American architecture was helping the ultra interesting Robert Hunter get a start in architecture after a pretty interesting foundation in studying and familiarizing himself with architecture here and abroad in the first 20 years of the 20th century.  ;)

I mean seriously, how interesting was Robert Hunter? Was he part of that freethinking conceptual brain trust in architecture consisting of Behr, Mackenzie et al? Probably.

Who can say his "The Links" in 1926 was not one of the most interesting and seminal books on golf course architecture ever done? Or was he just one of those "amateur novices" who had to call on somebody else to tell him what to do and what to think and what to write?

TE
You are an idiot.

I take it Watson won't be making your short list of men profiled by the USGA archive? I hope that is not a case of east coast bias.

In the first twenty-five years of the century I count 25 designs in the region, and I'm sure I've missed some. There were not a lot of golf courses in SoCal in the 1900s and 1910s.

I'm fascinated by the man; I believe he is one of the most interesting figures in American golf architecture history, not just California golf history, and one of the most important. I'm not sure why you feel the need to mock him. If he had been practicing in Philadlepha he'd be considered a god.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2008, 06:48:49 AM by Tom MacWood »

Thomas MacWood

Re: California 1930
« Reply #89 on: July 08, 2008, 07:19:41 AM »
David
Your information jives with what I have read about Griffith Park. Course #1 was designed by Benedelow and course #2 by Thomas. The LA Times reported #2 opened in 1923. Thomas redesigned #1 in 1927.

Are you sure Bell wasn't involved at LACC? I changed the other attributions.

If had included nine hole courses Watson's Lake Arrowhead would have deffinitely made the list.

Its too bad Shackelford, Wexner and Naccarato could not lend their expertise to the list.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2008, 08:43:01 AM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re: California 1930
« Reply #90 on: July 08, 2008, 10:28:03 AM »
Tom MacWalnut:

Willie Watson was a fascinating guy as a lot of those early guys in varioius regions were who served as an important link in the evolution of architecture that came later.

No, he didn't make the initial USGA list of the fifteen most signficant architects in American history. There're probably fifteen others who are more sigificant than he was even if someone like you has recently become fascinated by him and may not agree with that. ;)

My God do you have a problem and a major league chip on your shoulder towards some regions and people from them. Now we have your "East Coast Bias" label to add to your "Philadelphia Syndrome" label. Interesting!  ;)

If you're so interesting in these things why didn't you take me up on my offer to you to get involved in consulting on the archive? To me it's obvious, you just can't take any responsibility for anything---you've never been able to. Maybe you just can't stand the idea that some opinionated jerk out there somewhere may call you an idiot on GOLFCLUBATLAS.com for not seeing things exactly as he does. It seems the best you can do is sit out there in your little Ivory Tower and question and criticize others on this website.

By the way, it's Dan Wexler, not Dan Wexner.  :P He's written some excellent books. Have you heard about that? He's also on the USGA Architecture Archive committee, so why don't you call him an idiot too for not promoting Willie Watson more on the first list of the fifteen most significant architects in American architectural history?  ;)

You've become fascinated by HH Barker too, right? Is the whole USGA Architecture Archive committee all idiots  because it hasn't identified HH Barker as the second best architect in America in 1910, an opinion that was apparently floated by you recently.   ::)
« Last Edit: July 08, 2008, 10:37:19 AM by TEPaul »

Thomas MacWood

Re: California 1930
« Reply #91 on: July 08, 2008, 11:22:46 AM »
Cypress Point - 1928 MacKenzie/Hunter

Pebble Beach - 1919 Neville/Grant, 1920 Fowler, 1927 Mackenzie, 1929 Egan/Hunter/et al

Pasatiempo - 1929 Mackenzie

Riviera - 1926 Thomas/Bell

Los Angeles (North) - 1921 Fowler, 1927 Thomas/Bell

Bel-Air - 1927 Thomas/Bell/Neville

Ojai Valley - 1924 Thomas/Bell

San Francisco - 1918 Neville?, 1920 Tillinghast, 1930 Bell

Olympic (Lake) - 1924 Watson, 1927 Whiting

Olympic (Ocean) - 1924 Watson, 1927 Whiting

Meadow Club - 1927 Mackenzie/Hunter

Stanford - 1930 Bell/Thomas

Monterey Peninsula - 1925 Raynor, 1926 Hunter/MacKenzie/Egan

Lake Merced -  1922 Lock, 1929 Mackenzie

Califronia GC of SF - 1918 Lock, 1920 Macan, 1927 Mackenzie/Hunter

Harding Park - 1925 Watson

Sharp Park - 1929 Mackenzie

Orinda - 1925 Watson

Sonoma - 1927 Whiting/Watson?

Castlewood - 1927 Bell

Claremont - 1903 Smith, 1920 Watson, 1928 Mackenzie

Sehouyah - 1914 ?, 1920 Fowler

Berkeley - 1920 Watson/Hunter

Valley Club of Montecito - 1929 Mackenzie/Hunter

Lakeside - 1924 Behr

Montebello Park - 1928 Behr

La Cumbre - 1917 Bendelow/Bryce, 1925 Thomas/Bell

Royal Palms - 1925 Bell

Lake Elsinore - 1925 Dunn

Lake Norconian - 1928 Dunn

Griffith Park - 1923 Thomas

Fox Hills - 1927 Thomas/Bell

Sunset Fields (No.1 + No.2) - 1927 Bell

El Caballero - 1928 Bell

Annandale - 1906 Watson/O'Neil, 1919 Watson, 1923 Bell/Croke

Pasadena - 1920 O'Neil/Croke

Brookside - 1928 Bell

Midwick - 1911 Macbeth, 1929 Bell

Rancho - 1921 Fowler

Wilshire - 1919 Macbeth

Hillcrest - 1922 Watson

Hacienda - 1920 Watson

Victoria - 1903 Heath, 1918 Fovargue, 1924 Behr

Flintridge - 1921 Watson

San Diego - 1922 Watson

Rancho Santa Fe - 1929 Behr

Agua Caliente - 1929 Bell
« Last Edit: July 08, 2008, 01:52:53 PM by Tom MacWood »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: California 1930
« Reply #92 on: July 08, 2008, 01:03:58 PM »
David
Your information jives with what I have read about Griffith Park. Course #1 was designed by Benedelow and course #2 by Thomas. The LA Times reported #2 opened in 1923. Thomas redesigned #1 in 1927.

In his book Thomas wrote he designed one in 1923 and the other in 1925.  He may be referring to the date he designed them, not when the opened.  (I think the city built them.)   

Quote
Are you sure Bell wasn't involved at LACC? I changed the other attributions.

I think he was involved, with the construction at least.  I just find it odd the way Thomas lists it in the book.   

Quote
Its too bad Shackelford, Wexner and Naccarato could not lend their expertise to the list.

I agree, but I can't say I blame them.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Jed Peters

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: California 1930
« Reply #93 on: July 08, 2008, 02:00:05 PM »
Del Paso was completely done over 2 years ago--should point that out.

But in its first incarnation, to not have it on this list would be a mistake--every california governor has been a member, it's the most prestigious club in the state capital, and was done in the "golden age" of california golf architecture. Hell, it hosted a USGA major championship for crissakes.

Tim Leahy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: California 1930
« Reply #94 on: July 08, 2008, 08:08:16 PM »
Del Paso was completely done over 2 years ago--should point that out.

But in its first incarnation, to not have it on this list would be a mistake--every california governor has been a member, it's the most prestigious club in the state capital, and was done in the "golden age" of california golf architecture. Hell, it hosted a USGA major championship for crissakes.

From what I have read, in it's day Del Paso was overshadowed by MacKenzie's original Haggin Oaks course, although you couldn't tell by what's left there now.
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

Thomas MacWood

Re: California 1930
« Reply #95 on: July 08, 2008, 10:39:17 PM »
Jed & Tim
What were the architectural merits of Del Paso in 1930? Who originally designed the course in 1916?

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: California 1930
« Reply #96 on: July 08, 2008, 11:47:17 PM »

Speaking of Willie Watson, there are a few intersting photos of Lake Arrowhead in CAA, but I am not sure whether it was 9 or 18 holes in 1930. 

  

LA was a nine holer then. WFB added the addtional 9, but I'm not sure of the exact date.


Tom MW, I've posed the question your asking now before, that being whether or not the golden age reached it's zenith in California. I seem to remember not getting a favorable response from most of the east coasters. ;) Personally, upon reflection after asking that question myself, I reached the conclusion that it makes it's case better than anyone else.


Billy Bell and Willie Watson were major players during the golden age here in California and Bell continued right up until his death in 1953. And I agree, Watson was THE guy in the early 20th century.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

TEPaul

Re: California 1930
« Reply #97 on: July 09, 2008, 05:48:07 AM »


From David Stamm:

Tom MW, I've posed the question your asking now before, that being whether or not the golden age reached it's zenith in California. I seem to remember not getting a favorable response from most of the east coasters.  Personally, upon reflection after asking that question myself, I reached the conclusion that it makes it's case better than anyone else.





From post #79:


"It could be argued California in 1930 was the zenith of American golf architecture."
Tom MacWood


“It sure could. It would also be extremely interesting to track why and how and when that remarkable and potentially "out of the box" California free-thinking amongst a select few got truncated and essentially misunderstood and under-appreciated or frankly just missed, as time went by.

In my opinion, that relatively loose-connected brain trust out there at that time just may've been the ultimate expression of the "horse leading the cart" in golf architecture. Somehow the horse got waylaid and the result for the next half a century or so became the "cart leading the horse" in golf architecture.
TEPaul

Thomas MacWood

Re: California 1930
« Reply #98 on: July 09, 2008, 06:55:16 AM »
David
Not only was Watson THE man in California in the early years, it could be argued he was the man in the Midwest around the same time, or at least one of main men. That is pretty remarkable.

I think one of the reasons for the lack of recognition today for the west in general is due to the fact that California golf architecture went from the heights in around 1930 to the pits in a very short period. They were not able to sustain that very high level of output; there was no one waiting in the wings (with much talent) after the main players died or retired. As a result a lot of those courses were altered by lesser architects. It seems to me, in other regions, the best courses, for whatever reason, were not nearly as prone to redesign. California exploded population wise, and that put additional pressure on things. In some ways California was its own worst enemy.

That being said, serious students of golf architecture have a lot of resources at their disposal today, which allows them uncover the major contribution of men like Billy Bell, William Watson and HH Barker....if they are truly interested. I think it is inexcusable to mock these guys just because you are ignorant of their accomplishments or ignorant of golf architecture at a particular period or place.

I think there is a bias. Following discusions on GCA is a good barometer of an eastern emphasis. I couldn't even hazard a guess how many words have been devoted to Hugh Wilson (there is another active thread going on right now). His greatest claim is redesigning Merion with the help of William Flynn, a very solid accomplishment no doubt, but after that there is not whole lot to write home about. Solid but nothing earth shattering. Compare his career accomplishments with William Watson or Billy Bell, who were involved in probably 100 courses in total.  How many words have been devoted to these guys in comparision? 1/100th, 1/1000th, probably closer to 1/1000th.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2008, 07:01:25 AM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re: California 1930
« Reply #99 on: July 09, 2008, 09:57:33 AM »
"That being said, serious students of golf architecture have a lot of resources at their disposal today, which allows them uncover the major contribution of men like Billy Bell, William Watson and HH Barker....if they are truly interested. I think it is inexcusable to mock these guys just because you are ignorant of their accomplishments or ignorant of golf architecture at a particular period or place.

I think there is a bias. Following discusions on GCA is a good barometer of an eastern emphasis. I couldn't even hazard a guess how many words have been devoted to Hugh Wilson (there is another active thread going on right now). His greatest claim is redesigning Merion with the help of William Flynn, a very solid accomplishment no doubt, but after that there is not whole lot to write home about. Solid but nothing earth shattering. Compare his career accomplishments with William Watson or Billy Bell, who were involved in probably 100 courses in total.  How many words have been devoted to these guys in comparision? 1/100th, 1/1000th, probably closer to 1/1000th."


Tom MacWood:

Is there really any question WHY there is continued antagonism towards you with the constant remarks you make on here like the one above?

First of all, Hugh Wilson was one of those unusual "amateur/sportsmen" architects of a particular era who concentrated on only a few projects, primarily Merion East for about fifteen years. The man had another day-job, you know? Due to that fact, it's ridiculous to compare him to someone like Watson who was a professional and did app. 100 courses. The only way to compare Wilson's architectural talent or Wilson's significance in American architecture to Watson's is not to compare how many courses either did but the quality of what they did.

I don't think anyone who knows anything about golf course architecture is going to seriously claim Watson produced a golf course or architecture of the quality and enduring fame of Merion East.

You wonder why there are so many threads on Merion which you claim is evidence of an East coast bias? Well, one reason is there are two on here---eg you and your sidekick Moriarty who have been questioning the accuracy of the architectural record of MERION and its architectural attribution for over five years. You were the one who began the thread: "Re Macdonald and Merion" and you are the one who began a thread questionng "legends" and the "status quo" that concentrated on the accuracy of the "legend" of Hugh Wilson and the "status quo" of MERION's architectural record!

We did not do that here in Philadelphia, you did that yourself. You, and then Moriarty are the ones who brought all that up, not us. The threads are on this website that prove that. You apparently do that to try to challenge clubs and their history and their architects that have those clubs attributed to them. There's no question in my mind the two of you do that to try to make a name for yourselves as researchers. The truth is you've made fools of yourselves as researchers and architectural and historical analysts. Your assumptions and conclusions in the process are pretty shocking inaccuracies and distortions---eg patent historical revisionism. You also try to do this kind of thing with an amazing lack of information.

It won't stand and you will be proven wrong.

Then you apparently attempt to promote other architects who history has probably treated accurately and make more out of them then they ever were. We know who Willie Watson was and what he did in the midwest and in California. We aren't mocking him simply because we don't make as much out of him as you're trying to do. History has a pretty interesting way of basically telling the truth about people and what they really did but obviously you don't look at it that way probably because the only one you're really trying to promote on here is yourself.  The funny thing is you're not lecturing on here to some high school class, you're talking to a whole lot of people who know a whole lot about the history of architecture. It seems like you just can't help trying to make it look like you know more than anyone else---that you are the only real serious student and analyst of architecture on here. That's definitely a joke if I've ever seen one.

You call yourself a serious student of architecture? Maybe you're serious but you are also truly bad at some of the things you assume and conclude.

I'll take the words of a George Thomas who was there and who knew these men and what they did and how good any of them were over your musings any day. What did Thomas say about Wilson? If you don't know I'd be happy to tell you, even though a defensive and clearly insecure jerk like you will probably try to convince some of us that Thomas was engaging in some sort of hyperbole too in the interest of promoting the legend status of a Wilson. The constant responses of the two of you that all the words and records of the people who were involved must in some way be inaccurate or hypebole or eulogies or lies is preposterous. If that's your best response and defense it's truly pathetic. That's not research OR analysis. It's pettiness and defensiveness.

Wilson deserves credit mostly for redesigning Merion East with Flynn?? What kind of bullshit is that MacWood? Of course he deserves credit for that but he and his committee also routed and designed Merion East and to a man the members of his committee said Hugh Wilson was in the main responsible for the architecture of the East and West course. Your only response is they ALL must be mistaken somehow!   ???   ::)

All really poor golf architecture analysts like you can come back with to that is everybody must have been lying or exaggerating for some reason or that all this is being perpetuated by the people from this region.

You're not a serious architecture analyst, you're a detriment to architectural analysis and the reason seems to be you have a massive and on-going chip on your shoulder towards entire regions and the people from them. Why is that Tom MacWood? Are you really that insecure?

« Last Edit: July 09, 2008, 09:59:18 AM by TEPaul »

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