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Bill_McBride

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Re: California 1930
« Reply #25 on: July 02, 2008, 07:10:49 PM »
Add Sharp Park (MacKenzie 1929?), although it was mostly destroyed by a storm shortly after it opened and there's little MacKenzie left.  If I recall correctly, Daniel Wexler lists it as NLE in "Missing Links."

David Stamm

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Re: California 1930
« Reply #26 on: July 02, 2008, 07:17:42 PM »
Red Hills was a nine holer by GT with BB sr adding an addtional nine.




Some others:


Lake Elsinore- Dunn (featured in GTJ's book) I'm unsure on the date  ('25?) but it didn't last long.

Oakmont-Behr, 1924

Midwick-Macbeth, but heavily redone by Bell

Sunset Fields- (36) by Billy Bell, 1927

Montecito CC- Behr, 1919

Palos Verdes- Bell, 1924

Here's a link to RSFGC's club history showing that the course did not open unitl 1929

http://www.rsfgolfclub.com/club/scripts/library/view_document.asp?GRP=6227&NS=PUBLIC&APP=80&DN=HISTORY



 
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Tim Leahy

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Re: California 1930
« Reply #27 on: July 02, 2008, 08:33:51 PM »
where was Lake Norconian? I have never heard of that one. Is Norco too obvious?
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

David Stamm

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Re: California 1930
« Reply #28 on: July 02, 2008, 08:46:37 PM »
where was Lake Norconian? I have never heard of that one. Is Norco too obvious?


Not at all. That's exactly where it was.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

TEPaul

Re: California 1930
« Reply #29 on: July 02, 2008, 09:11:47 PM »
I would love to hear what anyone thinks some of the distinguishing style characteristics were of the best of the California architecture up to this time. Or what some of the significant architectural ideas and philosophies were out there up to this time. It seems like there was a group of real freethinkers out there then who pretty much knew each other and maybe bounced things off one another to perhaps take things to another level in the future.

Something like the idea of "artificial sand dunes" is perhaps a good example, or creating bunkers in the shapes of passing clouds.  ;) Even something like Thomas' idea of "courses within a course" or the ideas for architecture behind half strokes for putts.

Thomas MacWood

Re: California 1930
« Reply #30 on: July 02, 2008, 10:33:52 PM »
I don't think Red Hills was 18 in 1930, but I could be wrong. It was listed in the golf course guide of 1930 as 9-holes.

How good were LACC-South, Oakmont, Montecito, Montebello, Palos Verdes, Catalina, Union League, Berkeley, Hillcrest, Flintridge, Parkridge, Ft. Washington and Del Paso?

Are there any courses I've included that are of questionable merit, comparatively speaking?

When did Bell alter the bunkering at SFGC?
« Last Edit: July 02, 2008, 11:24:04 PM by Tom MacWood »

Kevin_Reilly

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Re: California 1930
« Reply #31 on: July 02, 2008, 11:28:46 PM »
I think there was a discussion of Union League (Green Hills now) on the board a year or two ago.  It has a relatively extensive listing on Wikipedia - Union League  CC.

A board member architect I think was doing some work at Mira Vista (Berkeley), but I might be mistaken.  I recall a discussion of Berkeley on this board as well.

It would be interesting to know the extent of Watson's involvement at Claremont, as mentioned on the Orinda CC site.
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Jon Spaulding

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Re: California 1930
« Reply #32 on: July 02, 2008, 11:38:07 PM »
I don't think Red Hills was 18 in 1930, but I could be wrong. It was listed in the golf course guide of 1930 as 9-holes.

How good were LACC-South, Oakmont, Montecito, Montebello, Palos Verdes, Catalina, Union League, Berkeley, Hillcrest, Flintridge, Parkridge, Ft. Washington and Del Paso?

Are there any courses I've included that are of questionable merit, comparatively speaking?

When did Bell alter the bunkering at SFGC?

Red Hill was definitely a 9-holer in 1930; a likely a damn good one, featuring templates from courses such as Pine Valley and The Old Course. Thomas also trapped it after play commenced in 1921.

Catalina was not very good based on the photos I have seen.

Montecito would have been quite good given the holes I understand to currently be originals, the architect's other work, and the property that was lost to highway 101.
You'd make a fine little helper. What's your name?

Phil_the_Author

Re: California 1930
« Reply #33 on: July 03, 2008, 12:10:52 AM »
Tom,

You asked, "When did Bell alter the bunkering at SFGC?"

In the December 1934 issue of Golf Illustrated, Scotty Chisholm wrote, “The San Francisco Golf and Country Club course, one of the country’s finest, abounds with such testing two-shotters and it says much for the skill of A.W. Tillinghast, the designer, that few if any changes have been made anywhere on this splendid course since he did his work many years ago…” 

The year 1924 was among the few occasions when it was touched, some 6 years after it had officially opened for play. Golf Illustrated in April 1925 states, “This fine testing course, remodeled by A.W. Tillinghast a year ago [this would be in 1924], in the pink of condition…”

So up until this time very little if any substantive changes had been made to the course.

In that same December 1934 issue of Golf Illustrated, Tilly himself writes that, “The editor will be on his way to revisit California after an absence of some years.” Among the things that Tilly did on this visit is mentioned in his March 5th, 1936 letter to George Jacobus from his San Francisco stop while on his PGA Course Consultation tour. Note what he wrote:

“It must be mentioned that Greenkeeper George Paulson accompanied us throughout the day, and must compliment this man especially for the able manner in which all of my plans have been carried through, particularly the new first and second holes, as well as the new twelfth, which I designed when I was here last winter. [This would be his Winter 1935 visit mentioned in December 1934’s GI article] Today I gave them a rearrangement of the trapping of the fairway of the fourteenth, which has been the only weakness of the course. The new plan will bring it up properly. While I made numerous suggestions for refinements on nearly every hole, they were of minor character and not at all expensive to accomplish.”

As a follow-up to this letter, Tilly revisited the club on February 6th, 1937, during his next California visit on his 2+ year PGA Course Consultation tour. Writing once again to George Jacobus, He stated, “This morning it was raining again and a telephone message from Dixwell Davenport advised me that it would be foolish to attempt the visit to the San Francisco Golf Club. Consequently this was postponed until tomorrow (Sunday). However at ten o’clock Davenport telephoned again as there were indications of clearing and asked me what I thought about it. I replied “let’s go” so I drove to the club. Of course it was very wet underfoot and sticky. Out here it is not the falling rain which hinders nearly so much as the bad footing, on the adobe (?) soil. However at the San Francisco Golf Club there is a somewhat different soil condition, more sand than usual in these parts, so it was possible to walk around… I checked on all work, which I recommended last March… However some of the construction work has not altogether pleased me and gradually this is being corrected… Today I additionally instructed them concerning the raising and contouring of the right side of the 3rd green; the left-front of the 5th and located a new site for the 10th green to the right of the present (one of their own making, which has left much to be desired.) All other opportunities for improvements were made note of on my last visit and definite records made at that time by the committee…”

It is most likely that Bell was at SFGC in the 1930’s at Tilly’s recommendation (I can’t find where I put the information on those dates… I’ll see if I can find them). Many times, especially during his PGA Tour years, he suggested other architects be used by clubs to carry out his recommended work. Most occasions he would leave detailed sketches for them to work from or send them at a later date. The work that Bell did was according to Tilly's recommendations to the club.

It is interesting to again note what Tilly wrote about locating "a new site for the 10th green to the right of the present (one of their own making, which has left much to be desired.)" Clearly work was done by an in-house committee that was immediately recognized as a mistake. They corrected it by following Tilly's instructions, not Bell's or any other architect.

That Tilly was pleased with the work that Bell did and showing that he believed that they could work well together and that he wasn't competing against Tilly, was that they became partners in September 1937 right after Tilly ended his PGA Tour. 


DMoriarty

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Re: California 1930
« Reply #34 on: July 03, 2008, 01:43:03 AM »
How good were LACC-South, Oakmont, Montecito, Montebello, Palos Verdes, Catalina, Union League, Berkeley, Hillcrest, Flintridge, Parkridge, Ft. Washington and Del Paso?

Are there any courses I've included that are of questionable merit, comparatively speaking?

These are tough questions with many of the California courses because they were either substantially changed or became NLE before they could establish much of a reputation.    So with many their quality remains a mystery.   Also, there was a flood in 1938 and significantly altered a number of southern California courses.

I've never played it, but what about Balboa Park, 1921?   I've heard it is fun.   

Does anyone know anything about California Country Club (I think that was the name) in Los Angeles, just south of Hillcrest?   Judging from the neighborhood around it, I assume it was built in the mid to late 20's.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Dan King

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Re: California 1930
« Reply #35 on: July 03, 2008, 03:37:23 AM »
Here is what D. Scott Chisholm says about California golf in an article titled "Care to Hear About California Golf?" in American Golfer, 1929, Vol.32:
"I have only to make mention of such outsanding courses in California as Ojai, La Cumbre, San Francisco Golf & Country, Meadows, Pebble Beach, Cypress Point (a brand new one and the most scenically blessed of all links in the world), Riviera, Los Angeles Country, Lakeside, Annandale, Wilshire, and numerous others, including the famed El Caballero, to bring into line the superlatives of the golfers' playgrounds in the Golden State.... Although I have the privilege, and the privilege still stands, I believe, of playing over nearly all the private courses of the State, I want to say right here that I would just as soon play such public layouts as Montebello, Westwood, Sunset Fields, Western Avenue and the Griffith Park courses in the Southern part of the State and Harding Park and Lincoln Park on the San Francisco district as almost any privately owned golf course I know."

Here is what he says about California architects:
"Golf course architecture has made rapid strides in California. To such eminently successful architects as George C. Thomas, Jr., Max Behr, William E. Bell, Dr. A. Mackenzie and others must go unlimited praise for the magnificence of their art. The entrance of Mackenzie into the California field of golf course designing has brought us many new innovations that have kept the California standard of architecture to the front in recent years."

Cheers,
Dan King
Quote
The growth of golf in California will dazzle the most imaginative mind of Eastern and Mid-West golfers. Its progress has been so startling and the standard of excellence both of play and playing facilities has been so improved that those travellers who were to visit the Golden State prior to 1922 with golf clubs and plus fours cannot comprehend at first glance the vastness of the change which has taken place.
 --D. Scott Chisholm, 1929
« Last Edit: July 03, 2008, 12:16:16 PM by Dan King »

TEPaul

Re: California 1930
« Reply #36 on: July 03, 2008, 07:51:47 AM »
""Golf course architecture has made rapid strides in California. To such eminently successful architects as George C. Thomas, Jr., Max Behr, William E. Bell, Dr. A. Mackenzie and others must go unlimited praise for the magnificence of their art. The entrance of Mackenzie into the California field of golf course designing has brought us many new innovations that have kept the California standard of architecture tp the front in recent years."


Dan:

I wonder what D. Scott Chisholm was referring to when he menitoned 'new innovations.'

Thomas MacWood

Re: California 1930
« Reply #37 on: July 03, 2008, 08:09:31 AM »
Phil
The William Bell bunkers at the famous 7th were in place in 1936, so it had to happen some time prior to that.

It seems to me there was a lot going on a SFGC in its early years. Do you know when the club moved to its current site, and if Tilly laid out the original course or redesigned an existing golf course? My impression is his work was done in stages.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2008, 08:30:00 AM by Tom MacWood »

Thomas MacWood

Re: California 1930
« Reply #38 on: July 03, 2008, 08:24:42 AM »
Wasn't the South course at LACC the original 1911 course?

Cypress Point - 1928 MacKenzie/Hunter

Pebble Beach - 1919 Neville/Grant, 1921? Fowler, 1927? Mackenzie, 1929 Egan/Hunter/et al

Pasatiempo - 1929 Mackenzie

Riviera - 1926 Thomas/Bell

Los Angeles (North) - 1921 Fowler, 1927 Thomas/Bell

Bel-Air - 1927 Thomas/Bell

Ojai Valley - 1924 Thomas/Bell

Meadow Club - 1927 Mackenzie

Valley Club of Montecito - 1929 Mackenzie/Hunter

Sonoma - 1927 Watson/Whiting

Stanford - 1930 Bell/Thomas

Monterey Peninsula - 1925 Raynor, 1926 Hunter/MacKenzie

San Francisco - 1918 Lock?, 1920 & 24 Tillinghast, 1930 Bell

Olympic (Lake) - 1924 Watson, 1927 Whiting

Olympic (Ocean) - 1924 Watson, 1927 Whiting

Montebello Park - 1928 Behr

Lakeside - 1924 Behr

Rancho Santa Fe - 1929 Behr

San Diego - 1922 Watson

La Cumbre - 1917 Bendelow, 1925 Thomas/Bell

Royal Palms - 1925 Bell

Lake Elsinore - 1925 Dunn

Lake Norconian - 1928 Dunn

Lake Merced -  1922 Lock, 1929 Mackenzie

Califronia GC of SF - 1918 Macan, 1929 Mackenzie

Harding Park - 1925 Watson

Sharp Park - 1929 Mackenzie

Griffith Park - 1923 Thomas

Fox Hills - 1927 Thomas/Bell

Sunset Fields (No.1 + No.2) - 1927 Bell

El Caballero - 1928 Bell

Annandale - 1906 Watson/O'Neil, 1919 Watson, 1923 Bell/Croke

Pasadena - 1920 O'Neil/Croke

Brookside - 1930 Bell

Midwick - 1911 Macbeth, 1929 Bell

Rancho - 1921 Fowler

Wilshire - 1919 Macbeth

Hillcrest - 1922 Watson

Flintridge - 1921 Watson

Orinda - 1925 Watson

Castlewood - 1923 Bell

Claremont - ? Watson, 1929 Mackenzie

Agua Caliente - 1929 Bell
« Last Edit: July 03, 2008, 01:57:05 PM by Tom MacWood »

Phil_the_Author

Re: California 1930
« Reply #39 on: July 03, 2008, 10:02:18 AM »
Tom,

Tilly visited SFGC and I believe the "Bell bunkers at the famous 7th" were as a result of this.

SFGC moved to it's current site and was open for play in January 1918. This same year they also opened their newly-constructed clubhouse. Tilly did the entire course. This information can be found in the 5oth anniversary book published in the early 70's.

Tilly may have actually been out there to discuss this project as early as late 1915 and without question in 1916. He was also there in 1920 refining the course, possibly in 1922 and again in 1924 as I put in the first post. It is because he was there again in 1920, 22 (?) & 24 that one would think the work was done in stages but this is misleading. These visits were making adjustments and minor changes to the course.

Among other reasons beside the natural one that the club itself says so that we know that the entire 18-hole course was complete and open for regular play in 1918, is the mention of a professional named Brady playing the course in January that can be found in the February 1919 (p. 372) issue of the American Golfer.

It states: "The last two rounds Brady played before coming East [Brady was stationed in San Francisco during WW I and his coming East was when he was released from active duty] were two of his best, for on the two-year old San Francisco Golf Club course..."


Thomas MacWood

Re: California 1930
« Reply #40 on: July 03, 2008, 10:20:12 AM »
Phil
I thought I remembered reading a different story regarding who did what and when at SFGC. Here is an old thread from Sean Tully. Bell redid the bunkers in 1930 and they are beauties.

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,22706.0.html

Jon Spaulding

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Re: California 1930
« Reply #41 on: July 03, 2008, 10:36:53 AM »
Wasn't the South course at LACC the original 1911 course?


Definitely not. I don't have the history handy in person or in memory, but can scan & email a few pages which detail the original layout if you're interested.

You'd make a fine little helper. What's your name?

John Keenan

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Re: California 1930
« Reply #42 on: July 03, 2008, 10:37:03 AM »
What about Mare Island Golf Course claims to be the oldest west of the Mississippi.  From it site:


Established in 1892, Mare Island Golf Club is the oldest course west of the Mississippi. Originally built as a 9-hole course its first 30 years included sand greens and dry fairways. The course began near the former Marine Barracks and proceeded south to Lake Rodgers (built in 1876 and named after Rear Admiral Rodgers), then returned to the start

John
The things a man has heard and seen are threads of life, and if he pulls them carefully from the confused distaff of memory, any who will can weave them into whatever garments of belief please them best.

Thomas MacWood

Re: California 1930
« Reply #43 on: July 03, 2008, 11:13:36 AM »
Jon
I should have phrased my question better. Wasn't the original 1911 course redesigned  by Fowler in 1921 and renamed the South course?  And wasn't the second course or North course a completely new design in 1921?

John
I've never heard Mare Island. Did it exist in 1930 and was it any good?

Pete Lavallee

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Re: California 1930
« Reply #44 on: July 03, 2008, 11:17:14 AM »
I've never played it, but what about Balboa Park, 1921?   I've heard it is fun.   

David,  

Balboa Park had dirt fairways and oiled sand greens until a WPA project in 1938 added irrigation and grass. Obviously William Park Bell introduced these changes; which is probably why he gets the major credit for the course design. I know some suspect it was originally a Watson design.
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Lynn_Shackelford

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Re: California 1930
« Reply #45 on: July 03, 2008, 11:56:51 AM »
What about Hacienda CC, (1922) Max Behr?

I have been playing most of these courses since inception as Moriarty suggested.  However I play more frequently now since I have ample opportunity to win money from D. Kelly and D. Moriarty.
It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson

Jon Spaulding

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Re: California 1930
« Reply #46 on: July 03, 2008, 12:09:57 PM »
Jon
I should have phrased my question better. Wasn't the original 1911 course redesigned  by Fowler in 1921 and renamed the South course?  And wasn't the second course or North course a completely new design in 1921?

John
I've never heard Mare Island. Did it exist in 1930 and was it any good?

Fairly close; but the North did utilize portions of the "old" course.
You'd make a fine little helper. What's your name?

Dan King

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Re: California 1930
« Reply #47 on: July 03, 2008, 12:22:46 PM »
TEPaul writes:
I wonder what D. Scott Chisholm was referring to when he menitoned 'new innovations.'

He doesn't say in that article. I'm looking around American Golfer for somewhere that might say. I might have more luck looking through Mr. Mackenzie's book, but looking through old American Golfers is mucho fun. In another article a different author mentions center-line irrigation starting in California, but I don't think anyone would credit that to Mr. Mackenzie. Another article mentions bermuda grass originating in California.

I found a few mentions of Santa Cruz Golf and Country Club in American Golfer. Apparently it was in Pogonip, and had cool views of the coast from everywhere on the course. Pogonip would be up at UC Santa Cruz. It closed in 1935.

Cheers,
Dan King
Quote
If you're not failing every now and again, it's a sign you're not doing anything very innovative.
 --Woody Allen
« Last Edit: July 03, 2008, 12:24:38 PM by Dan King »

John Keenan

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Re: California 1930
« Reply #48 on: July 03, 2008, 12:24:37 PM »
Tom

From reading the web site I would suspect it did exist in 1930 but unclear what condition and such. It mentions that in 1933 the Women's Club was started

It appears that the course has been changed around quite a bit due to needs of the military.

Take a look at the site: www.mareislandgolfclub.com

John
The things a man has heard and seen are threads of life, and if he pulls them carefully from the confused distaff of memory, any who will can weave them into whatever garments of belief please them best.

TEPaul

Re: California 1930
« Reply #49 on: July 03, 2008, 12:36:30 PM »
Dan:

I'd ask you to look to find the mention of something that might corroborate some of the philosophical ideas for architecture and the future of architecture with some of the things we suspect were coming out of the freethinking or forward thinking minds of that west coast contingent of that time that most certainly includes Mackenzie and Behr.

What I'm particularly talking about is their ideas on not using rough in golf and architecture and going with maximum width (and they just may've meant really maximum width too) with the hazard features sprinkled within rather than on the flanks as so much architecture has always had. If their ideas were not just maximum fairway width it may've been trying to serioiusly extinguish the distinctions between fairway and rough.

Of course anyone can imagine the inherent obstacles and problems to this particular new architectural philosophy but one of the ways they may've envisioned pulling it off was to basically just meld together the fairways of contiguous holes at least in some sections.

One just cannot help but notice that some of Mackenzie's whole course drawings from around that time (late 1920s) did exactly that.

The other thing to take not of is that this is precisely the way they looked at TOC and both of them most certainly endorsed everything about TOC including its very hazy distinction between fairway and rough as well as its constant side by side contiguous hole melding!!

Was this part of their new architectural expression and philosophy? I, for one, think it probably was.


Dan:

As to a little more corroboration of the architectural philosophy explained above, I believe it was one of Mackenzie's and Behr's fellow philosphical travelers, Robert Hunter, who wrote in his excellent book (around 1926) something to the effect that isn't it interesting that architecture's historical prototype IS TOC but yet so few architects have every really used many of its architectural principles elsewhere?!?  ;)
« Last Edit: July 03, 2008, 12:40:47 PM by TEPaul »