[Thomas MacWood]

By the way, have you ever actually seen Max Behr's house that's essentially across the street from Golf House? Of course Behr lived there some decades before the USGA moved to Far Hills which is pretty ironic if one thinks about it.

I have seen it from the front gate, not well though. The front gate was pretty spectacular in its own right. Geoff Shackelford has shared some vintage photos.

While your family anecdotes are charming they are not much help to the person trying to determine who did what, when and why. Your stories and quarter will get you a cup of coffee...scratch that...coffee is more fancy and expensive now-a-days. Make that $3.50.

[Eric_Terhorst]

Tom MacWood

You should add the Presidio Golf Club to your list.  From my history book on the course:

1895 Army gives permission to a civilian group called “The San Francisco Golf Club” to build a 9-hole course on the grounds of Fort Winfield Scott at the Presidio.  Five of the greens were sand.

1898 Tudor Style clubhouse built (has been expanded/remodeled several times)

1905 “Founding members left to form what became the San Francisco GC on land leased from the Spring Valley Water Co. south of town”

1905   Private Presidio Golf Club (PGC) formed by neighbors of the Presidio, led by Bernard Faymonville, then-President of the Fireman’s Fund Insurance Company

1908    Army approves expansion to 18 holes.  No designer mentioned.

1920    Army grants permission for new expansion and redesign.  Fowler and Simpson retained by PGC.  Project completed September, 1921 at a cost of $96,000. 

Fundamental design hasn’t changed much since, except that the management group brought in after the Presidio army base closed has rebuilt several greens.

[Thomas MacWood]

Cypress Point - 1928 MacKenzie/Hunter

Pebble Beach - 1919 Neville/Grant, 1920 Fowler, 1927 Mackenzie, 1929 Egan/Hunter/et al

Pasatiempo - 1929 Mackenzie

Riviera - 1926 Thomas/Bell

Los Angeles (North) - 1921 Fowler, 1927 Thomas/Bell

Bel-Air - 1927 Thomas/Bell/Neville

Ojai Valley - 1924 Thomas/Bell

San Francisco - 1918 Neville?, 1920 Tillinghast, 1930 Bell

Olympic (Lake) - 1924 Watson/Whiting

Olympic (Ocean) - 1924 Watson/Whiting

Meadow Club - 1927 Mackenzie/Hunter

Stanford - 1930 Bell/Thomas

Monterey Peninsula - 1925 Raynor, 1926 Hunter/MacKenzie/Egan

Lake Merced -  1922 Lock, 1929 Mackenzie

California GC of SF - 1920 Macan/Lock , 1927 Mackenzie/Hunter

Harding Park - 1925 Watson/Whiting

Sharp Park - 1929 Mackenzie

Orinda - 1925 Watson

Sonoma - 1927 Whiting

Castlewood - 1927 Bell

Claremont - 1903 Smith, 1920 Watson, 1928 Mackenzie

Sehouyah - 1914 ?, 1920 Fowler

Berkeley - 1920 Watson/Hunter

Union League (Green Hills) - 1929 MacKenzie

Presidio - 1895 ?, 1908 ?, 1921 Fowler/Simpson

Del Paso - 1916 Black, 1921 Fowler?

Valley Club of Montecito - 1929 Mackenzie/Hunter

Lakeside - 1924 Behr

Montebello Park - 1928 Behr

La Cumbre - 1917 Bendelow/Bryce, 1925 Thomas/Bell

Royal Palms - 1925 Bell

Lake Elsinore - 1925 Dunn

Lake Norconian - 1928 Dunn

Griffith Park - 1923 Thomas

Fox Hills - 1927 Thomas/Bell

Sunset Fields (No.1 + No.2) - 1927 Bell

El Caballero - 1928 Bell

Annandale - 1906 Watson/O'Neil, 1919 Watson, 1923 Bell/Croke

Pasadena - 1920 O'Neil/Croke

Brookside - 1928 Bell

Midwick - 1911 Macbeth, 1929 Bell

Rancho - 1921 Fowler

Wilshire - 1919 Macbeth

Hillcrest - 1922 Watson

Hacienda - 1920 Watson

Victoria - 1903 Heath, 1918 Fovargue, 1924 Behr

Flintridge - 1921 Watson

San Diego - 1922 Watson

Rancho Santa Fe - 1929 Behr

Agua Caliente - 1929 Bell

[Jed Peters]

Tom MacWood, Del Paso was designed in 1916 by John Black. Black was runner up in the 1922 US Open at Glencoe, and head pro at Claremont CC.

Here's the article I found about him in the NY Times archives from 1922....

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9D02E6D61239EF3ABC4A53DFBE668389639EDE&oref=slogin

Further, there is mention of an Ingleside Golf Course "near" San Francisco.

Anyone know of this course's history?

[Thomas MacWood]

Jed
Thats good information, thanks.

I believe Ingleside the site of SFGC prior to the move to Lake Merced.

[TEPaul]

"While your family anecdotes are charming they are not much help to the person trying to determine who did what, when and why. Your stories and quarter will get you a cup of coffee...scratch that...coffee is more fancy and expensive now-a-days. Make that $3.50."

Tom MacWood:

So what is your mentioning that Hunter and Behr and Crane may've lived in a house that was built by some nominal A/C style building architect got to do with who did what, when and why in golf course architecture in California in 1930?

Sorry you missed the point of the analogy, but it's not surprising.

[Tony_Muldoon]

"Tom Paul I challenge you. If you really have anything of value to add on this site, write up your attribution of who did what and when at Pine Valley. Several times you’ve addressed a couple of holes and countless times you said you were going to write the whole damn thing and then...you delete the posts you have made on the subject and just go back to attacking others and recycling old knowledge."

TonyM:

Don't bother with that challenge. I have put a few things on here about the creation and evolution of a couple of holes down there and there is a good reason I deleted them. I'm about finished with the Pine Valley creation story and it will go to the club. It won't go on here unless the club is OK with that.  Over here we actually try to pretty much work with the clubs we research not outside them. David Moriarty's Merion archive access entitlement charade has changed some things for this website with some of us. Wayne Morrison has pretty much left over it, and with good reason, and for me I actually get into asking permission first which is apparently something too many on this website don't get, don't understand or don't care about, and that's a shame. When this kind of thing happens the automatic response from the likes of MacWood and Moriarty always seems to be that the clubs themselves have something to hide which is ridiculous and just makes things worse. If either of them or anyone else wants to see what we write about clubs like that they should consider going to those clubs and asking, as we do. We've said that for years. It's the decent and commonsensical thing to do in our book. If others don't see it that way, I think that's their good right but it's also their problem.

Total BS and you know it.  If this is what you've always believed why put that stuff up on here in the first place?  You've just backed yourself into a corner with this one and last time you gave this argument on here it was laughed out of court by (from memory) Paul Turner, Brad Klein and others.


So what’s the deal? I can't comment on a book without getting the authors permission first?  Bullcrappy as a Californian friend of mine used to say.

You are now the biggest BORE on here; endlessly repeating "Agenda", "Merion" "Cornish and Whitten". I challenge you to do something creative on here; put up ANY new, original and pertinent historical material on a subject of your choice!


No response to my assertion that you are the originator of so much negativity on here?

[Jed Peters]

Don't forget Menlo Country Club--credited as 1901

Kyle Phillips thinks it's a 1927 design (probably the 18 holes) but it's credited as:

Other early California Designs by Tom Nicoll, a Scottish-born golf professional:

Los Altos Hills Country Club--1923
San Jose Country club--1912

[TEPaul]

Tony Muldoon;

You can go straight to fucking Hell in my opinion, and I really do mean that.

If people like you are going to join this horseshit mentality of private club access entitlement from the likes of Moriaty on here I want no more part of this website than Wayne Morrison does if that's what it's turned into. I don't know where you people get off accusing Wayne or me who are connected for years to some of these clubs with hundreds of friends of trying to do the wrong thing here! Yeah, sure, Wayne did post the letter from Macdonald to MCC on this site. He was simply trying to be helpful. On reflection and in conjunction with MCC he and they decided it was not appropriate because of the wish of the club not to post more until this essay of ours is written. So for that, what does he get? He gets totally lambasted on here by the likes of Moriarty and MacWood and now you, as have I apparently for considering a club and what they want to do with their own material dissemination. If you're serious that Brad Klein and Paul Turner are on that preposterous bandwagon and of that mentality then just add them on too as a couple more who should go to hell. It doesn't matter to me one iota who it is who feels this way, including Ran Morrissett and Ben Dewar. It that's what this site has come to it it's definitely not for members of golf clubs with people like this on here.

Wayne Morrison belongs to that club and I've got hundreds of friends over there but people like you all don't give a shit about anything like that, do you?

If this is really the way it is, you are all a bunch of assholes, in my opinion. if that's really the way you think. You all take this subject of golf course architecture and your interest in it to a level or selfishness and arrogance and entitlement that is almost unspeakable, in my book and apparently in Wayne's. He's still on here but he's completely disguised by this website now and the way this has gotten out of control.

Enjoy yourselves! There is nothing left on this website that's enjoyable for me.

By the way, take your Goddamn challenge to me about the PV creation story and shove it. Stuff like that definitely ain't going to happen on here and for the very same reasons with this Merion charade by a couple of jerks on here.

[Thomas MacWood]

Tony Muldoon;

You can go straight to fucking Hell in my opinion, and I really do mean that.

If people like you are going to join this horseshit mentality of private club access entitlement from the likes of Moriaty on here I want no more part of this website than Wayne Morrison does if that's what it's turned into. I don't know where you people get off accusing Wayne or me who are connected for years to some of these clubs with hundreds of friends of trying to do the wrong thing here! Yeah, sure, Wayne did post the letter from Macdonald to MCC on this site. He was simply trying to be helpful. On reflection and in conjunction with MCC he and they decided it was not appropriate because of the wish of the club not to post more until this essay of ours is written. So for that, what does he get? He gets totally lambasted on here by the likes of Moriarty and MacWood and now you, as have I apparently for considering a club and what they want to do with their own material dissemination. If you're serious that Brad Klein and Paul Turner are on that preposterous bandwagon and of that mentality then just add them on too as a couple more who should go to hell. It doesn't matter to me one iota who it is who feels this way, including Ran Morrissett and Ben Dewar. It that's what this site has come to it it's definitely not for members of golf clubs with people like this on here.

Wayne Morrison belongs to that club and I've got hundreds of friends over there but people like you all don't give a shit about anything like that, do you?

If this is really the way it is, you are all a bunch of assholes, in my opinion. if that's really the way you think. You all take this subject of golf course architecture and your interest in it to a level or selfishness and arrogance and entitlement that is almost unspeakable, in my book and apparently in Wayne's. He's still on here but he's completely disguised by this website now and the way this has gotten out of control.

Enjoy yourselves! There is nothing left on this website that's enjoyable for me.

By the way, take your Goddamn challenge to me about the PV creation story and shove it. Stuff like that definitely ain't going to happen on here and for the very same reasons with this Merion charade by a couple of jerks on here.

Wow! Nikita Khrushchev would be proud.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Tony Muldoon;

You can go straight to fucking Hell in my opinion, and I really do mean that.

If people like you are going to join this horseshit mentality of private club access entitlement from the likes of Moriaty on here I want no more part of this website than Wayne Morrison does if that's what it's turned into. I don't know where you people get off accusing Wayne or me who are connected for years to some of these clubs with hundreds of friends of trying to do the wrong thing here! Yeah, sure, Wayne did post the letter from Macdonald to MCC on this site. He was simply trying to be helpful. On reflection and in conjunction with MCC he and they decided it was not appropriate because of the wish of the club not to post more until this essay of ours is written. So for that, what does he get? He gets totally lambasted on here by the likes of Moriarty and MacWood and now you, as have I apparently for considering a club and what they want to do with their own material dissemination. If you're serious that Brad Klein and Paul Turner are on that preposterous bandwagon and of that mentality then just add them on too as a couple more who should go to hell. It doesn't matter to me one iota who it is who feels this way, including Ran Morrissett and Ben Dewar. It that's what this site has come to it it's definitely not for members of golf clubs with people like this on here.

Wayne Morrison belongs to that club and I've got hundreds of friends over there but people like you all don't give a shit about anything like that, do you?

If this is really the way it is, you are all a bunch of assholes, in my opinion. if that's really the way you think. You all take this subject of golf course architecture and your interest in it to a level or selfishness and arrogance and entitlement that is almost unspeakable, in my book and apparently in Wayne's. He's still on here but he's completely disguised by this website now and the way this has gotten out of control.

Enjoy yourselves! There is nothing left on this website that's enjoyable for me.

By the way, take your Goddamn challenge to me about the PV creation story and shove it. Stuff like that definitely ain't going to happen on here and for the very same reasons with this Merion charade by a couple of jerks on here.

Very classy. Please compare what I’ve written to you against the kind of language you routinely use against others.  Do you have anger issues?


Tom Paul let me point out it’s you that keeps “this Merion charade” alive on here.

How do you justify the following, from a thread entitled, “California 1930”

Furthermore, your essay on here about Merion created a stir not because of some east coast or Philadelphia bias but because it's assumptions and conclusion are just inaccurate. It's pretty much as simple as that. The attribution given to Macdonald and Whigam by Merion is accurate and the attribution given to Hugh Wilson and his committee by Merion is accurate.

The story of his trip abroad in 1910 is very likely inaccurate and probably did not come within a half century of the routing and design and creation of Merion East. The point is that has nothing to do with what Wilson and his committee did at Ardmore in 1911. Wilson and his committee routed and designed the East course with advice and suggestions from Macdonald and Whigam, just as the architectural record has said.

Or this from a thread entitled “The Continent 1938”

I was thinking more along the lines of why a guy like you or Moriarty sort of automatically discounts what a man like Alan Wilson said about the creation of Merion. 

About a week ago someone else called you out for the negativity and irrelevance of these bitchy comments.  If you really worry what the members of the Merion Club think about what’s written on this site then why don’t you stop repeating this bile and rubbish?  You bring down the tone of this place.




That’s it I’ve said my piece and now you can reply all you like.  I’m going to take a week’s holiday from posting on this site and can only apologise to everyone for being the catalyst for yet more rubbish on here.

Enjoy the Open.

[Peter Pallotta]

Tony M -

I have to defend my friend here. You wrote "I challenge you to do something creative on here; put up ANY new, original and pertinent historical material on a subject of your choice!"

Are you kidding me, Tony?

Do you (or the others who've said similar thngs in the last week) really believe that Tom hasn't added facts and details and insights and first-hand experiences on a huge number of gca-related subjects, and that he's done that for years around here and that he continues to do that? Do you really believe he hasn't been a tremendous asset to this website from the very beginning, and that he continues to be an amazing asset and resource?

If you really believe that, then in my opinion you haven't been paying attention.

And if you think that Tom sharing his opinions and experiences -- on course designs that he's been a part of and renovations that he's overseen, on USGA rules questions he's dealt with and the top-level amateur competitions he's participated in, on the great golf courses that he's played a thousand times and on some of the golf course architects he's known well for years, and on the reading and research he's done about the earliest days of golf in America and the ideas and philosophies that have shaped the game and the game's designs -- makes him a bore instead of one of the most generous (and consistently generous) posters this site has ever had, then I don't know what to say.  I think your point of view is misguided.

I don't know Tom very well; I guess a dozen IMs and a few phone calls after some interesting posts makes him an "internet friend" of mine. But I do know that, unlike a few of the other knowledgable posters around here, he's not stingy or miserly with his opinions and he doesn't  play favourites -- i.e. whether it's a newbie who is asking a question that's been asked a dozen times before or a veteran discovering an interesting subject for the first time, Tom offers his insights and opinions fully and with flair and -- most importantly -- without contempt or an air of superiority. He doesn't wait for posts from the select few or from those few deemed worthy of respect in order to answer people in the best way he can.    

Anyway, Tony - like I say I felt I needed to defend my friend. The only thing I can agree with you on is that it's time for a week off to play and watch some golf.

Peter

[Thomas MacWood]

And if you think that Tom sharing his opinions and experiences -- on course designs that he's been a part of and renovations that he's overseen, on USGA rules questions he's dealt with and the top-level amateur competitions he's participated in, on the great golf courses that he's played a thousand times and on some of the golf course architects he's known well for years, and on the reading and research he's done about the earliest days of golf in America and the ideas and philosophies that have shaped the game and the game's designs -- makes him a bore instead of one of the most generous (and consistently generous) posters this site has ever had, then I don't know what to say.  I think your point of view is misguided.

Peter
I agree, as far as the rules are concerned, there is no one better.

[Patrick Boyd]

Don't forget Menlo Country Club--credited as 1901

Kyle Phillips thinks it's a 1927 design (probably the 18 holes) but it's credited as:

Other early California Designs by Tom Nicoll, a Scottish-born golf professional:

Los Altos Hills Country Club--1923
San Jose Country club--1912

I grew up playing Los Altos Country Club and the course has seen several iterations since 1923.  The property the original back nine was situated on was sold at some point during World War II to keep the club afloat.  Not too long after the war, the club purchased back the land that was available and routed a new back nine.  I'll look into who came in to do it, but don't know off hand.  There is a very definite difference stylistically between the two nines.

The club has since undergone several renovations, the last being in 2004.

Interestingly enough the land the club was on at one point was owned by Santa Clara University who had plans to build a campus on the site, but decided to sell the land after the 1906 San Francisco earthquake.  The area the club surrounds is known as Loyola Corners.

I've played San Jose Country Club numerous times as well, although it's been about 12 years since. The second hole is pretty severely uphill and features a 10 ft pin to keep the approach from being completely blind.

Maybe I'm a silly Newbie, but would Northwoods G.C perhaps fall somewhere in here?  Granted it's only 9 holes, but it was an interesting collaboration between MacKenzie and Jack Neville with an interesting back story tied to the Bohemian Club.

[Tom MacWood]

This was the format we used last year. We tried to pin down the original designer and any subsequent redesigns. There was one on California, the South, Great Lakes and I think Continental Europe.

[ed_getka]

Tom,
     Nice to have you back on the site.

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