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Scott Macpherson

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A question for MacKenzie Fans...
« on: July 01, 2008, 10:33:28 AM »
There is contrasting evidence that the great man, Dr A. Mackenzie visited/designed/remodeled Heretaunga Golf Course (now known as Royal Wellington) in New Zealand. Some great books 'The Architects of Golf' do not say he did, others like Hawtree in 'Colt & Co' suggests he may have??

Does anybody know of other sources that support either claim?

Note; the RWGC site does not credit Mackenzie with doing any work on the course- of even having visited on his trip to New Zealand in 1926.

Jed Peters

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Re: A question for MacKenzie Fans...
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2008, 10:43:12 AM »
Didn't he build Merion?

David Stamm

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Re: A question for MacKenzie Fans...
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2008, 12:38:58 PM »
Didn't he build Merion?


Nah, that's a local legend. ;D


Seriously, Neil Crafter can probably shed some light on this.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

TEPaul

Re: A question for MacKenzie Fans...
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2008, 12:50:35 PM »
"Didn't he build Merion?"


There is absolutely no evidence of that whatsoever! Nevertheless, it should certainly be considered very rude and inconsiderate of Merion to have heretofore not given him credit for at least routing Merion East. After-all some think they have found proof that there was no way super-novice Wilson and his committee of super novice-shmucks could've possibly done it, so at least H.H. Barker, C.B. Macdonald and H.J. Whigam must have. So why not Alister Mackenzie too? Matter of fact, I think Merion should give design credit to anyone who was an architect and within a mile of Ardmore in 1910 and 1911.

But you ask, what evidence do we have to prove this? That's not the point. The point is what evidence is there to prove they didn't do that!  ;)

Jed Peters

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Re: A question for MacKenzie Fans...
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2008, 12:54:44 PM »
"Didn't he build Merion?"


There is absolutely no evidence of that whatsoever! Nevertheless, it should certainly be considered very rude and inconsiderate of Merion to have heretofore not given him credit for at least routing Merion East. After-all some think they have found proof that there was no way super-novice Wilson and his committee of super novice-shmucks could've possibly done it, so at least H.H. Barker, C.B. Macdonald and H.J. Whigam must have. So why not Alister Mackenzie too? Matter of fact, I think Merion should give design credit to anyone who was an architect and within a mile of Ardmore in 1910 and 1911.

But you ask, what evidence do we have to prove this? That's not the point. The point is what evidence is there to prove they didn't do that!  ;)

We should start a thread on it.

I'm going to start writing the essay.

TEPaul

Re: A question for MacKenzie Fans...
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2008, 01:06:07 PM »
Thanks Jed. It would be most helpful if you'd collect all the evidence there is out there to prove why any known architect did not route or design Merion East. And I don't want some lame excuse like no factual evidence they did is evidence. I want concrete facts that prove they didn't design Merion. Anything less must be considered blatant speculation and conjecture!

Jed Peters

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Re: A question for MacKenzie Fans...
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2008, 01:08:15 PM »
Thanks Jed. It would be most helpful if you'd collect all the evidence there is out there to prove why any known architect did not route or design Merion East. And I don't want some lame excuse like no factual evidence they did is evidence. I want concrete facts that prove they didn't design Merion.

I can't provide facts.

Just smiles.

:insert lame smilie here:

Scott Macpherson

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Re: A question for MacKenzie Fans...
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2008, 05:12:55 PM »
I am kind of wondering where you Merion guys get off? I was asking a serious question (not so serious really), but I do object to it being hijacked by this ENNNNNNNDDDDDLESSSSSSS Merion stuff. (Didn't someone call truce of this weeks ago????)

And yes, in return, I promise not to hijack any of your Flynn, Macdonald .... threads.  ;)

Apology accepted.

scott

Matthew Mollica

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Re: A question for MacKenzie Fans...
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2008, 05:38:24 PM »
Scott, from my understanding MacKenzie didn't venture too far from Auckland, and made a fleeting visit to NZ at best. He planned Titirangi but I don't think he ever saw a completed construction of a single hole. The biography Doak et al penned on him several years ago doesn't support a visit to Wellington. Tom may post and expand on that though.

MM

P.S. The Merion joke was actually the first time I've read the name of the course and smiled in a long time. Jed's joke was not directed at you, dont worry!
"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

Neil_Crafter

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Re: A question for MacKenzie Fans...
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2008, 09:10:38 PM »
Scott
Mackenzie arrived in Auckland, New Zealand at 9.25am on January 4th 1927 on the 'Marama' from Sydney. He departed on February 1st 1927 from Auckland on the 'SS Maunganui" bound for San Francisco, via Rarotonga and Papeete. That much is certain. As for his precise movements in the nearly 4 weeks between arriving and departing we can be less than certain. But Matthew, I don't think 4 weeks could be described as 'fleeting' though.

According to Mackenzie's articles in Golf Illustrated (UK) later in 1927 he took a fortnights holiday to go trout fishing - Lake Taupo perhaps, as we know he visited Rotorua GC as he mentions the visit in Golf Illustrated. He makes no mention of whether he gave any advice at Rotorua. Perhaps the club has some record of his visit, but I've never come across any.

He writes that he was rather tired from his Australian exertions, so I think it fits that he had his 2 weeks holiday in early January, and got back to work later in January - this seems to tie in with the dates he was at Titirangi GC in Auckland, or Maungakiekie GC as it was called then. Mackenzie writes that he inspected "one or two other courses" while in Auckland. What ones they might have been I do not know.

Mackenzie was at Titirangi around January 20, according to information from the Club's archivist, to inspect the course and make his remodelling plans and report. On the 25th the club received his plans and they resolved to have Mackenzie bunker one hole before he left, and arranged for this to occur on January 27, and this took place, which hole was not recorded apparently.

John Lovell, a golf historian here in Australia, suggests that somewhere in his 4 weeks Mackenzie travelled by train to Wellington, he suggests it as January 27, but this was the same day he was rebunkering a hole at Titirangi so perhaps he left on the evening train. If he was indeed in Wellington for a few days it is possible he visited a club or two while he was there.

So, was Heretaunga one of these? I don't know and I've never seen any evidence to suggest he was. I understand, like you Scott, that the club has no evidence either. Searching the Wellington newspapers for January 1927 may be the best bet to see if there was any mention of him. I know that Doak Scott and Haddock's book lists Heretaunga as a course incorrectly attributed to Mackenzie, and that Cornish and Whitten do not include it at all. Hawtree does list it.

That is the outline of Mackenzie's time in NZ that we currently know about and is listed in the latest version of the Mackenzie timeline. There is a fair bit of conjecture in there. What is needed is a Kiwi with the time and passion to keep digging, wade through microfiche of old newspapers at the public libraries, search old golf magazines and contact the Auckland and Wellington golf clubs that were around in 1927 to see if there are any tidbits of information hidden in their archives that might enable the picture of his 4 weeks in NZ to be fleshed out a little further. By comparison, his Australian visit is much better known. Any thoughts on a candidate for this research Scott?

And its a shame that the Merionites can't keep their refuse from spilling across other decent minded threads like yours! Have they no shame?!

cheers Neil

Jed Peters

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Re: A question for MacKenzie Fans...
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2008, 11:42:53 PM »
P.S. The Merion joke was actually the first time I've read the name of the course and smiled in a long time. Jed's joke was not directed at you, dont worry!

Seriously, Scott. phew man!

Matthew Mollica

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Re: A question for MacKenzie Fans...
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2008, 07:38:49 AM »
Neil,

Thanks for the (as always) well researched and high quality reply.
I always assumed MacKenzie wasn't in NZ for that long...
and
I'd forgotten about Taupo, and the course which 'ad 'oh 'oles for 'azards.

MM
"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

Scott Macpherson

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Re: A question for MacKenzie Fans...
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2008, 11:52:00 AM »
HI Neil,

Thanks for the time you put in replying to my question. I should have just emailed you directly. But at least by doing it on GCA,  you have educated us all a bit.

As you know, I am based in Edinburgh, but I will be back in NZ at times. I may see if I can uncover anything else on Mackenzie. If I do, you will be the first to know.


thanks again,

s

Scott Macpherson

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Re: A question for MacKenzie Fans...
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2008, 11:57:43 AM »
PS- Anyone got a copy of that Doak book on Mackenzie they want to sell me (or swap me for a signed copy of my book?) ;)

Neil_Crafter

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Re: A question for MacKenzie Fans...
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2008, 02:51:27 AM »
Scott
A pleasure, but as you can see the information known is still rather sketchy and some serious investigations are long overdue I think. Hope you are able to spend some time on them on your trips back home.
cheers Neil


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: A question for MacKenzie Fans...
« Reply #15 on: July 04, 2008, 03:48:15 AM »
Scott:

Sadly, I don't even have my own copy of the MacKenzie book anymore, it has disappeared from my office and we had already given away the few copies I had when it went out of print.  Otherwise, I'd be glad to trade you.

Neil:

It was Dr. Scott's research that MacKenzie had not done anything at Heretaunga but I don't remember what his reasoning was ... I'll try to remember to look at his notes when I get back to the USA.  I think Mike Clayton is consulting there now so perhaps he will chime in.

Scott Macpherson

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Re: A question for MacKenzie Fans...
« Reply #16 on: July 04, 2008, 08:42:20 AM »
Tom,

Thanks for contributing, and if you find anything out about Heretaunga & Mackenzie I would be delighted to hear from you.

I enjoyed a great (few hours at your new new course in East Lothian. Well done, and I hope you get to build those 3 new holes soon!!! My current favourite hole is the 7th, but all the native greens have turned out a treat.

It will be my pleasure to present you with a copy of my book next time I see you...not that I expect you will learn much new about TOC from it.

scott

TEPaul

Re: A question for MacKenzie Fans...
« Reply #17 on: July 04, 2008, 09:34:17 AM »
"I am kind of wondering where you Merion guys get off? I was asking a serious question (not so serious really), but I do object to it being hijacked by this"

Sorry Scott, I was just responding to a pretty humorous question from Jed with what I thought was a fairly humorous reply. Attempts at Merion humor won't happen again.  :'( Well, on second thought, I don't think that's something I want to promise.  ;)

Frankly, I'm as interested in all things Mackenzie as I am in Merion, and I can guarantee that I am not out to find illogical ways to sink the legend of either. With MacKenzie, however, I guess I'd have to admit I'm more interested in the things he did in my country simply because I've seen them and I've never been to Australia even though I would love to see what he did there and if I do to know more about what he did there and how. I'm particularly interested in MacKenzie's various philosophies as to if and when they dovetailed with some of Max Behr's (and Jones') philosophies. The other thing I'd like to determine better about MacKenzie is just how much of a "quick study" he really was.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2008, 09:43:46 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re: A question for MacKenzie Fans...
« Reply #18 on: July 04, 2008, 09:47:20 AM »
By the way, does anyone know what happened to any golf architectural career documentation in Alister Mackenzie's possession when he died rather suddenly in California in Feb 1934?

Mike_Clayton

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Re: A question for MacKenzie Fans...
« Reply #19 on: July 04, 2008, 10:03:28 AM »
One of the most interesting things about The Spirit of St Andrews was the fact MacKenzie made almost no reference to his work in Australia - where he did some really significant stuff - yet he wrote something about his trip to NZ where he commented on golf in NZ as well as making reference to Titirangi.
All he noted of his transforming 12 weeks in Australia was 'There is some magnificent sand dune country in Adelaide and Sydney and the golf courses in the neighbourhood of Melbourne are reminiscent of Sunningdale.'
For a great publicitest he hardly made much of his work at Royal Melbourne,Kingston Heath,Royal Adelaide or NSWGC.

He said of New Zealand that  'Golf in NZ, unlike Australia, is dead. In fact it has never been alive.Green committees there do not seem to realize the game is played for pleasure; they utilize long grass as a penal hazrd and the consequence is that golfers will not put up with the annoyance of looking for lost balls. '
He also noted he designed a course at Titirangi and '  The construction of the holes appeared to be good, judging from the photos they sent me.'

We are consulting at Wellington and there is not much MacKenzie there - certainly not in sophistication of the green and bunker construction and a big part of our recommendations was the cutting back of the rough grass that surrounded green and lined fairways - just as it did in 1927.


TEPaul

Re: A question for MacKenzie Fans...
« Reply #20 on: July 04, 2008, 10:48:19 AM »
Mike:

Looked at in the most logical terms one could muster why do you suppose Mackenzie never mentioned much at all about his trip out there?

Thomas MacWood

Re: A question for MacKenzie Fans...
« Reply #21 on: July 04, 2008, 11:07:12 AM »
The Spirit of St.Andrews in book targeted to the American market. In essence it is a compilation or collection of articles written by MacKenzie for American golf magazines. He doesn't spend much time talking about his British courses either - the bulk of it deals with how he got his start in the design game. I don't recall any mention of Ireland. I do believe he mentioned something about removing bunkers at Royal Sydney in earlier section.

When reading the book it is helpful to know what written pre-Depression and what was written post-Depression.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2008, 05:38:44 PM by Tom MacWood »

Rich Goodale

Re: A question for MacKenzie Fans...
« Reply #22 on: July 04, 2008, 11:11:50 AM »
I seem to remember SOS being previewed 25 years or so ago in Golf Journal as some sort of an amazing "manuscript in the attic" find, not a compilation of previously published stuff.  That being said, when I last read it (2-3 years ago) I was very much underwhelmed.

Thomas MacWood

Re: A question for MacKenzie Fans...
« Reply #23 on: July 04, 2008, 11:57:39 AM »
Rich
I love the SOS, but I could see why you wouldn't like it. I think you have to be an admirer of MacKenzie to fully appreciate it.

Mike_Clayton

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Re: A question for MacKenzie Fans...
« Reply #24 on: July 04, 2008, 05:29:58 PM »
TE Paul,

I suspect he did not make much of it because he never saw the work on the ground.
You would have to think that if he had known how great Royal Melbourne was he would have included holes like the great 6th in his piece on ideal holes.

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