Changes to The Kingsley Club #17

[Will Lozier]

Jud,

I've never played Kingsley but on a good day - with a bit of tailwind or no wind at all - at that carry I'd certainly give it a go particularly if there was an advantage.  Again, not sure if there is not having been on the property.  But, it just seems the width created by the clearing out was a waste but for the "feeling" of spaciousness - not that it hasn't been an improvement.  I just don't see any strategic gain.

Cheers

Will - hard to call it a "waste" seeing that the original impetus for creating the width was to dramatically alter the hole and its playing characteristics, for the better.  After a couple years with the new version, the club decided they didn't like the tradeoff in risk vs reward (and probably additional cost) with the new width/second fairway.  Now they’re attempting to correct it.  

Couple things:

- The tree clearing originally done to accommodate the new width has dramatically improved the hole in my opinion, with or without actually having the second fairway.  The first iteration of the hole was very cramped and to me didn’t fit the “feel” of the course at all.  This has been corrected.

- While I really liked the added width/second fairway, the hole is still very good without it.  I would add however that I agree with Tom and Bart re: the grass behind the bunkers.  That native grass behind the centerline (now left side) bunkers was 100% needed when the hole was presented with two fairway routes.  Otherwise long players would literally have had +100 yards of width to hit their drives as long as they could get over the bunker complex.  

Now that the left fairway is gone, I do think the hole would be improved if some portion or all of the native behind that bunker complex was taken to fairway length.  I like the idea of having the benefit of added width if a golfer can make a certain carry (not on every hole of course, but it works well here).  If playing the appropriate tees, that carry should be right at the limit of the golfer’s ability and creates a great risk/reward tee shot.  If you didn’t want to challenge the hill, you could always hit something other than driver off the tee to the wide section of fairway short of the drop off.

George,

Waste is obviously a strong term - and I agreed that the feeling of space is an improvement especially as the rest of the course seemed very open (through pics as I've never been fortunate enough to play Kingsley).  Still, as I said before, strategically, nothing seems to have been gained other than making the miss left more friendly.  As I've also said, IF I can carry those left - "centerline" - bunkers, shouldn't I be rewarded rather than caught up in the rough on a downslope!?

Cheers

[Jud_T]

You may have a point.  When I actually see someone carry the bunkers on the fly from the tips I'll make the suggestion...

Jud,

I have to get up there to demonstrate!  

Come on up!  Nothing more enjoyable than watching strong players take bigger numbers on par 3's than on par 5's anyway...

[George Freeman]

You may have a point.  When I actually see someone carry the bunkers on the fly from the tips I'll make the suggestion...

Jud - not sure that is the point.  Someone will ALWAYS be able to make the carry from the tips.

I think if you're playing the right set of tees for the hole, you should be able to get over the hill with a very well struck tee shot, no matter what that distance is.  Getting down the hill might be the most fun aspect of the hole.  Providing a little extra width behind the bunker complex for someone who really takes an aggressive swing is a good thing IMO.

[Jud_T]

OK! let's give 'em at least 1 growing season to sort things out! 

[George Freeman]

OK! let's give 'em at least 1 growing season to sort things out! 

Agree 100%

[Chris_Hufnagel]

Good discussion on this hole...I think the evolution of this hole is really interesting and I am looking forward to seeing the native grasses growing in and seeing what the club ultimately determines the cut lines to be.

I went to Google Earth today to try and measure the distance from the new back tee to the top of the hill - Jud estimated 275 yards to carry the bunkers in his post and it felt like a lot more to me.  The other thing to note about this carry distance is that the fairway leading to the downslope rises virtually all the way to very top of the hill before the slope actually begins - while the course generally plays firm and fast, I would estimate that the majority of balls that have carried down the slope have hit fairly close to the crest of the hill to catch the slope.

Interestingly enough, the image on Google Earth was just shot on April 4th, 2012 - therefore you can see the new cut lines very clearly...



The yellow line is placed approximately in the middle of the new back tee and ends at what I estimated to be the crest of the hill - this is just a rough guess based on the position of the left bunkers and the change in coloration of the grass.  According to Google Earth, the distance is 302 yards.

I played the 17th three times one weekend last month and failed to come close to carrying down the hill all three times - there was a little breeze into the face and air temperatures were only in the 60s - but I would put my chances under ideal conditions at less than 5% from back there.  Previously, I used to hit driver with reckless abandon from the old back tee (with the left fairway) ten times out of ten and probably carry down the slope 8 or 9 times out of ten and be in the fairway - granted the old fairway at its widest was 93 yards according to Google Earth.

Certainly much more difficult and for most players will require a delicate third shot with some sort of wedge to a fairly challenging green - especially with a front position...

On June 25th, I will (hopefully) get six tee shots on this hole as part of the Hundred Hole Hike - I will let you know how I do!

[Buck Wolter]

I really liked the left side and will miss it I'm fairly certain. I have only made it over the hill to the left

I'll be interested to find out from Mike D why they didn't keep the left fairway and let the right grow-in. I think it would create more interest off the tee and  a much tougher second if you did get it over the hill.

Buck

[George Freeman]

I'll be interested to find out from Mike D why they didn't keep the left fairway and let the right grow-in. I think it would create more interest off the tee and  a much tougher second if you did get it over the hill.

Buck - I must say that thought never crossed my mind.  Very interesting though...

[Dan_Lucas]

The carry from the old back tee was 285. The new one adds 30 or so, making it 310 plus now. The long carry player is already benefited by not having to worry about the right side bunker complex. Also the slope of that hill carries the ball left so anything carrying over the bunkers will be going farther left. How much extra width do you feel is fair for a player who can hit it that far? The mowed grass at the crest of the hill is about 55 yards wide.

The rough behind the bunkers has always been native. When the fairway grasses grow up and blend it will look a lot better.

[Jud_T]

Dan,

Thanks for the clarification, and great work as usual.  By the way, how the hell do you mow that hill?  By hand?  I don't know that I've ever seen it done...

[JC Jones]

Dan,

Thanks for the clarification, and great work as usual.  By the way, how the hell do you mow that hill?  By hand?  I don't know that I've ever seen it done...

Dan uses hand shears.  They go well with his 4-wood

[George Freeman]

The carry from the old back tee was 285. The new one adds 30 or so, making it 310 plus now. The long carry player is already benefited by not having to worry about the right side bunker complex. Also the slope of that hill carries the ball left so anything carrying over the bunkers will be going farther left. How much extra width do you feel is fair for a player who can hit it that far? The mowed grass at the crest of the hill is about 55 yards wide.

The rough behind the bunkers has always been native. When the fairway grasses grow up and blend it will look a lot better.

Dan - you've seen my game, you know I need all the width I can get!

[Dan_Lucas]

JC
My grass shears have persimmon handles.

George
Yes, I've seen your game. We all need all the width we can get, but you're no JC Jones.

Jud
Our 4x4 fairway mowers handle it fairly well. That was the first place Mike took me to on my first visit to the property. He asked if I could mow that hill. I said yes, so the routing was complete.

[Howard Riefs]

With the new changes, #17 certainly doesn't look like the 4th easiest hole on the course. Will it continue to play as the 15 handicap hole? 

[Bill Seitz]

There are enough Kingsley threads in the archives that I don't think this necessitates a new one, but I was up for the Spring Outing this weekend and thought I'd post a few pics of the new tees that are being built on the 4th hole.  They sit to the west of the current tees, between the sixth green and the current fourth tee box for the blue and gold tees.  I should note that the course is in absolutely phenomenal shape right now.  

Aerial view of the fourth hole.  Dan Lucas just provided this to me, so I've updated the post with his much more accurate picture.  According to Dan, these may be available for play some time in the fall (maybe in time for the Mashie?).


A look at the new teeing areas from the sixth green.


From the front of the current fourth tees.  You can see the front teeing area, along with the new mowing pattern extending the fairway back on the new angle.


New front and middle tees
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Another look from what I think is the new part of the fourth fairway.  I think the new back tee will be tucked into the trees on the left of the picture, but maybe Dan Lucas can shed more light on that.  

[Dan_Lucas]

Bill

That is the new back tee, top left of your pic. Your google earth snapshot does not go far enough back. From google earth, since all the deciduous trees are leafless, you can see the hemlock tree (shown in your last pic) that sits immediately left of the new back tee 50 yards or so back into the block of trees that are behind your drawn-in back tee.

[Bill Seitz]

Dan, I meant to ask you on Saturday but it must have slipped my mind.  What's the expected time frame for the new tees?  I'm assuming the beginning of next season?

And you're right on the aerial view.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's a little notch that you can see just before that red line starts, which is where you had started clearing trees last year.  I believe that's the proper angle though, correct?

[Dan_Lucas]

Bill

Email me (kcsuptdfl@yahoo.com) and I'll send you my scribbled up google earth pic to post.

Dan