[Chris Cupit]

Why does Dick Wilson get such little love on this site?  I was reading and came across some interesting things:

1.  In the Shinnecock Hills Golf Club 1891-1991 history by George Peper (based on an original text by Ross Goodner) there is a history of the early course and how it was Willie Davies not Willie Dunn who really deserved credit for the first 12 holes (Dunn is credited as the "re-designer") there are two Wilson references:

     "In July of 1931 Dick Wilson's course was opened.  It has remained virtually unchanged for years" (pg. 39)

     "Work was done under the direction of Dick Wilson, the noted golf course architect who was working for the firm of Toomey & Flynn of Philadelphia."  (pg. 44)

2.  In the World Atlas of Golf (the namesake I think for this site) is this:  "It was not until 1931 that the course finally emerged as it now exists.  Largely the work of the late Dick Wilson, who was to design many of the better southern courses, Shinnecock Hills fully utilizes the outstanding features of the area..."  (pg. 114)

3.  There were a couple of old Sports Illustrated articles (1955 and 1962) that mention the RTJ/Wilson rivalry as architects with RTJ described as the cerebral thinker who "lays out" his courses and Wilson as the "in the dirt engineer" who built his courses.  I think Wilson is quoted saying something along the lines of "anyone can design or layout a course but the real design is in the construction".

To be fair, the SI article lists many of both of their best courses and Shinnecock Hills is not listed as a "Wilson course".  Wilson's Pine Tree in Florida is singled out for praise from Nicklaus, Hogan and Palmer and in one article I believe Frank Hannigan gives Wilson a lot of credit.

By my calculations, Wilson would have been the 27 year old foreman/dirt guy for Toomey & Flynn at Shinnecock.

Given the way the Merion threads went I promise I am not suggesting that D. Wilson was the "real" architect of Shinnecock only that he seems to have been involved in some really strong courses and I wonder why he has not received much mention on this site.

Lastly, I hope I'm not confusing any Wilson's but does anyone know if this is the same Dick Wilson that Joe Lee worked under for many years?

A couple of crazy thoughts:  Could Dick Wilson's private life (I understand he really struggled with the bottle later in life) have hurt his later reputation--did clubs not want to be associated with him?  Did his successor, Joe Lee, (maybe because his work maybe didn't measure up to golden age standards) hurt his mentor's reputation?  Again, I'm really just curious.

[Mike_Cirba]

Somewhere, I'm sure Wayne is spinning in his self-imposed GCA-exile grave. 

Dick Wilson did not design Shinnecock Hills;  not a single inch of it.

He did do some fine courses, no question, but Shinny wasn't one of them except perhaps in some imagined drunken braggadoccio of his which might have become a self-perpetuating rumor over the years.   And yes, Joe Lee worked for him.

I've seen the plans in Flynn's handwriting...multiple versions of them.

[Kyle Harris]

Chris,

I believe that Wayne Morrison has pretty well established the role of Dick Wilson in regard to Shinnecock through his research and the credit still belongs to William Flynn. Wilson's foreman duties were strictly in carrying out the plans set by Flynn.

[David Stamm]

Chris, Mike is correct. Wilson did not design Shinnecock (and we need Wayne back). He carried out Flynn's design, that's all. If memory serves, Flynn had to come out to the property and "put Wilson in his place" because he was deviating from Flynn's design.


 Now, I don't think there was anything wrong with alot DW's original designs, but I for one, think what he did to Bel Air was unforgivable.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Since Wayne's doing the Moses thing isn't now the time to lay the wood to Flynn? We could rationalize it by arguing it would bait him to come back. Mike, since you replied first it's your honor!

Chris:

1. Discussion of 1962 SI article

2. Pictures and minimal discussion of Wilson's par 3 course built for the Phipps in P.B.

Mark

[Chris Cupit]

Please let me clarify--I believe that Flynn designed Shinnecock and that his foreman was Dick Wilson.  Wilson worked for "the man" and Flynn deserves the credit for its design.

BUT, Wilson did have a big and important role in SH and given his other work I just wonder why he is not profiled or talked about more.  That's it, I promise

 I really am more curious about the second part of my post--why no bigger love for DW.

[Chris Cupit]

Since Wayne's doing the Moses thing isn't now the time to lay the wood to Flynn? We could rationalize it by arguing it would bait him to come back. Mike, since you replied first it's your honor!

Chris:

1. Discussion of 1962 SI article

2. Pictures and minimal discussion of Wilson's par 3 course built for the Phipps in P.B.

Mark

Cool.  Thanks.

[Chris Cupit]

Guys,

I hope this doesn't kill the thread but I think sometimes people don't carefully read what people post.

My topic was "Why no love for Dick Wilson" not anything else.

I quoted books and articles and DW himself but I never said he designed SH.  I said I figured he was the "27 year old foreman/dirt guy for Flynn".

I also went on to say "I am not suggesting that D. Wilson was the "real" architect of SH only that he seems to have been involved in some really strong courses and I wonder why he has not received more mention on this site".

Sheeesh

I will say that questions like this one of mine is exactly why someone like Wayne is good for this site.  I, too, hope he returns.

[Bill_McBride]

Interesting anyone would say there's "no love for Dick Wilson."

I think anyone who has played some of his courses might think they are a bit better than some of Robert Trent Jones' contemporary courses.  Here's a list that I think is pretty good golf for the time when these courses were designed:

Doral Blue -- pre Floyd!
Bay Hill
Cog Hill #4
Laurel Valley
La Costa North & South
Pine Tree
NCR South

.....and don't forget Tiger Bernhardt's home course, Oakbourne CC in Lafayette, LA!

[Chuck Brown]

There are similar stories about Wilson's role at Seminole, that have been discussed elsewhere here at GCA.

Has anyone written a biography, or an extended biographical article, about Wilson?

[David Stamm]

Interesting anyone would say there's "no love for Dick Wilson."

I think anyone who has played some of his courses might think they are a bit better than some of Robert Trent Jones' contemporary courses.  Here's a list that I think is pretty good golf for the time when these courses were designed:

La Costa North & South
 
 

If I'm not mistaken, Joe Lee was actually more responsible for the courses at LC than DW. In either case, while they aren't bad, I really don't like either course there.

[Tim Gavrich]

I really like his Mountain View course at Callaway Gardens...

[TEPaul]

Dick Wilson wasn't the foreman on Shinnecock, William Gordon was. Dick Wilson did take things into his own hands once at Shinnecock for which he got in a certain amount of trouble and the crew had to refix it back to plan (it must have been a pretty notable event because that story was confirmed to us by Flynn's daughter who did say that Wilson really could be a problem sometimes even though his brother who also worked on the crew was just fine). The reason one of the Shinnecock history books said the course was Wilson's is Wilson told Shinnecock that when he came back to consult on the course in the late 1950s or early 1960s.

[Gary Daughters]

Chris,

A little love was offerred to DW here within the past few months.  Not much, but some. 

The Mountain View routing is striking.  It's hard for me to describe, but some of the best holes there seem to flow against the the land.  It's counterintuitive, and it works so well you don't notice unless you're looking.  When you see it, you go... wow.



 

[Mike_Cirba]

Chris,

Sorry if my response was a bit harsh and abrupt.

I did like Wilson's Garrison GC in NY quite a bit, and I know redanman loves Bidermann, and Pine Tree is on my shortest list when I get back to Florida.   

I find him to be fascinating in many ways, and one of those "Bridge" architects between the Golden Age and the age of Mass Popularity (my new term for what others have called the "Dark Ages", which I think is both snooty and erroneous). 

[Kyle Harris]

the age of Mass Popularity (my new term for what others have called the "Dark Ages", which I think is both snooty and erroneous). 

Thank you.

[BCrosby]

Chris -

I like DW very much. He is much under-appreciated. But one reason why he is under-appreciated is not because of his work at SH. There's not much doubt that he exaggerated his contribution there and some later accounts bought into his line.

Bottom line is that whatever he did or didn't do at SH is irrelevant. He has plenty of other good work to support his reputation.

My only regret about DW was his sad self destruction.

Bob

[Neil_Crafter]

Chuck
I wrote an article about Dick Wilson's Australian visit in 1959 that was published in our "Golf Architecture" magazine last year - this also included as much bio material about DW that I could lay my hands on. If you email me at neil@golfstrategies.com.au I can email you a PDF file of the article.
cheers Neil

[Glenn Spencer]

NCR is one of the finest golf courses that I have ever played. It has really stood the test of time. Floyd won at -8 in 1969 PGA and Doyle won the 2005 Senior Open at -10. Basically, no changes to the design and only about 150 yards added to it. I have always found it severely underrated.  Coldstream is a pretty good golf course as well by Wilson, although not in NCR's class.

[TEPaul]

Glenn:

I agree with you that NCR is a really good golf course and architecture (can't remember which one it is--north or south) but it's the one we called the "big one". The first green that sort of runs away from you got my attention right out of the box.

[Steve Lang]

   Yes of course.. Flynn's daughter said so.

Perhaps the dark ages were really only being experienced in the NE USA..?

[Mike_Cirba]

Steve,

I'm not sure I understand?   Did you miss the multiple blueprints of Shinnecock in Flynn's handwriting?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Cirba,

Is it your position that the architect's plans are never deviated from by those in the field charged with construction of the golf course ?

Meadow Brook in Long Island is also a good golf course.

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike Cirba,

Is it your position that the architect's plans are never deviated from by those in the field charged with construction of the golf course ?

Meadow Brook in Long Island is also a good golf course.

Patrick,

No, but when those plans match exactly what was built on the ground I think I can make a pretty fair assumption that the architect kept a tight rein,..unlike, say, Aronimink.   

[bill_k]

Don't know a lot about Wilson myself-in fact, the only course of his I think I have played is West Palm Beach CC. I played it a few times several years ago and can tell you it had the worst maintained greens I 've ever seen. However, by South Florida standards the piece of land is wonderful and I could see a few REALLY good holes just sitting there waiting for someone to put some money into fixing the place up.  Somewhat unusual in that the front nine begins with back to back par 5's.
I used to play a couple of times a year with a friend who had retired from South Florida. We were discussing my recent trip to WPB and I mentioned that I would like to find out more about this Dick Wilson guy, whom I learned had designed WPB CC. He immediately volunteered that he had performed the autopsy on Dick Wilson while he was the county coroner (can't remember which county...Dade, Palm Beach, Broward?) and had not thought about it for 30 years...but remembered him because of the tremendous damage to his liver-something he had not seen before or since.

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