[Mark_Fine]

Ditches can serve many purposes including functional for drainage, aesthetic appeal, lower maintenance costs than bunkers, as well as providing a great hazard with unpredictable recovery options.  Forrest and I are working on a master plan for a course where we will incorporate ditches on a fairly frequent basis for all of the above reasons.  Outside of Oakmont, why are they so infrequently used?  Any thoughts? 

[Thomas MacWood]

I like them as features. I think a modern golf course featuring ditches and cops (anti-ditches) would interesting and fun.

[Bradley Anderson]

I think that ditches are very interesting design features. However most golfers will not enjoy them if they loose their balls in them. Could you design these ditches to be maintained at standard rough height? And would they stay dry after a rain, or would they hold water for any length of time, now becoming a water hazard and a misquito breeding grounds?

[Mark_Fine]

Of course it would depend on the weather, but most of the time, the ditches would be dry.  At the same time, when it rains they could serve a great purpose for drainage.  They could be made as playable as the architect/superitendent deems necessary. 

[Bradley Anderson]

Mark,

If they collect water then they would need drainage in them, unless you are on top of a gravel or sandy base.

If you are on clay however, I think you would need drainage, and that could be costly because your outflow would be a pretty deep trench.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Bradley A, from MacKenzie's "Golf Architecture":

Most golfers have an entirely erroneous view of the real object of hazards. The majority of them simply look upon hazards as a means of punishing a bad shot, when their real object is to make the game interesting.  The attitude of the ordinary golfer towards hazards may be illustrated by the following tale which I have frequently told before, but which will bear repeating:

A player visiting a Scotch course asked his caddie what the members thought of a stream which was winding in and out between several of the holes.  The caddie replied, "Weel, we've got an old Scotch major here.  When he gets it ower he says, 'Weel ower the bonnie wee burn, ma laddie'; but when he gets in he says, 'Pick ma ball oot o' that domned sewer.' "

Mark

[Forrest Richardson]

A Long Hole — That's All

Somewhere out there,
   from tee to green
Are sand filled pits,
   they are a common scene

But as we play,
   and negotiate the hole
There is a hazard,
   that hides like a mole

What is this feature,
   why is it so unused?
How can it be,
   it seems golf is abused

How can Ross,
   and each of his clan,
Not claim more of these,
   —perhaps we ask Ran?

No, that is overkill,
   the answer is clear
These things are old,
   archaic as Ginger Beer

They are certainly cheap,
   they perform the trick
If they lived on a cactus,
   they would be the prick

Ahh, it is so simple!
   this hazard is a bitch,
It is nothing more
   than a simple dug ditch


      — Forrest Richardson

[TEPaul]

Actually Seminole has always had a few drainage ditches although they aren't as close to play as Oakmont's, except for #14 where it always had to be considered when you laid up on the second shot. An alligator was in the one on the right as frequently as not too, making the hazard just that much more interesting. Once I hooked my tee shot into the one to the left of #2 and when I was looking for it a big snake almost bit me.

[Mike_Cirba]

Ditches are cool.

Two of the first 4 courses I ever played utilized ditches fairly extensively.   The first, primarily along the sides of a few holes as drainage ditches, and the second, serving the same purpose, had them crossing both horizontally and diagonally on a few holes.

In both cases, they were almost always dry except when it was raining heavily, but they seemed to me to be a necessary intrustion by man into the landscape, and I never minded them as something excessively artificial or somehow blotting the landscape unnecessarily.

They also created a mostly penal, but also escapable architectural feature.

[Tim Nugent]

The course I grewup on was flat as a pancake and had a meandering ditch about 15' wide crossing many holes.  Due to the high water table, the ditches almost always had water in them (although the thick, green algee covered it completely.  Without the ditches, the water would have no where to drain to.

I believe Sunningdale makes use of ditches for drainage but Oakmonts scared the hell out of me - but I hear they cleaned them up some. 

The main problem I see with ditches is lost balls and what they do to speed of play.  Oh yeah, if some frunken idiot drives into one with a golf cart and gets hurt, you can bet your ass there will be a lawsuit and you will hear the word "negligence" alot.

Nice prose Forrest.

[Sean_A]

Ditches are used extensively in the heathlands - though they often tend to be a bit away from the line of play.  I just played Rosses Point which uses a ditch/burn system to create interest magnificently.  I like them because I always think of them as fulfilling a dual function (which is always good) of creating a challenge and making the turf a better surface to play on.

Ciao

[Mark Pearce]

Ditches are well used on several holes of both courses at the Berkshire. Indeed I was disappointed when playing there on Friday to see that since I was there last year the straight ditch on the right side of the 15th fairway on the Red course had been moved 5 yards towards the fairway and turned into some bizzarre snakey thing.  Not good.

[Mark_Fine]

As pointed out by several of you, ditches are more prevalent on courses in the British Isles.  Like any design feature, if used in moderation, they are a great form of hazard.  Nice post Forrest 

[Jeff_Mingay]

Mark,

This thought has crossed my mind frequently over recent years... particularly in reference to Oakmont. My home course -- Essex G&CC, Windsor, ON (D. Ross, 1929) -- also features some (more modest, and subtle) ditch features.

I hope to have an opportunity to incorporate some ditches at a future project as well.

[Adam Sherer]

I agree that ditches are great and can be used as great strategic (or penal) hazards. At Oakmont we put perforated drainage pipe with gravel to eliminate water from collecting and causing a "water hazard". However, the fescue sod that was put down creates its own set of playability issues.

My home course (Sakonnet) utilizes ditches on a few holes (3) that are maintained with bluegrass rough and are kept dry.  These ditches are found in the approaches to the greens (15-30 yards short) and are playable but are by no means easy.

I believe that ditches are most effective when used to bisect landing areas. Would a barranca (ie Riviera) considered a ditch?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark Fine,

Great topic.

I think they're one of the most under utilized features in golf.

They're usually cheap to build and can be built almost anywhere.

They can add greatly to the design, strategy and mental imtimidation the hole projects.

My only caveat would be the following.

Under the ZANY DEP regulations, would they be deemed waterways, subject to those regulations and their implications.

The "moat" concept is appealing as is the "border" concept.

At a course that I"m very familiar with, "ditches" and dry creeks come into play on 12 holes.

They provide interesting strategies.

With many, the closer to the ditch, the better the resultant angle of attack, with others, you have them fronting and flanking greens, with others they run alongside the hole.

Over the years, many have become narrower, many have deteriorated.

I'd like to see them returned to their original form and function.

In addition, they would seem to be an ideal vehicle to help with drainage.

[Rich Goodale]

Since we all know that golf course architecture was and is derived from equestrian principles, let's call a spade a spade, or more properly a ditch a haha.

There is a magnificent haha at Applebrook.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Rich,

I think there's a distinct structural difference between Haha's and ditches.

I do like the Haha at Applebrook.

[tlavin]

Great topic.  I am quite certain that there are many, many golf courses where ditches have been removed by Grounds Committees over the years.  I can tell you first hand that there used to be a ditch that traversed across five holes at the North Course at Olympia Fields and some genius decided to eliminate it and replace it with a half-assed pond that they stuck in front of the 18th green.  The ditch was a couple feet across and it came into play in odd places on the different holes, but it was a much more effective multiple hole hazard than the out-of-place muni pond that replaced it.

[Kalen Braley]

This is a great topic...

But i'm just not seeing the love for ditches. Its seems they are mostly NLE for good reason.  They usually look ugly as all get out and often don't tie in naturally to the course.  As was pointed out, they are mostly just penal and further punish already bad shots. 

Yes I do think they work at Oakmont, but that's more of a corner case of a course that was thought up and concieved for almost the sole purpose of being a tough penal mother.  I guess I've just played too many munis where they had flooding issues and they put them in and they are usually just awful.

That being said I suppose if they were artfully and thoughtfully done, and not in a symetrical or straight manner they could be done on a case by case basis.

[Paul_Turner]

Frinton-on-Sea GC has to be the king of ditches (called Fletes by the locals), on nearly every hole a ditch has to be negotiated in some way.

[JESII]

Since we all know that golf course architecture was and is derived from equestrian principles, let's call a spade a spade, or more properly a ditch a haha.

There is a magnificent haha at Applebrook.

Applebrook, PA?   Where?   #16?

[Rich Goodale]

I'm guessing 5 or 6, Jim.  Downhillish hole out towards the far end of the property?

[Jay Flemma]

well lets see?  there's burns at Carnoustie and TOC, there's creeks at Augusta, and - for example - fowlers mill, there's ditches at Oakmont, there are washes on many great desert layouts like say, Apache and TSN...

I'll say it's like any other hazard...if it's used skillfully...like say in a diagonal hazard...or it tries to tempt you to go for a shot that's juuuuuuust out of your skill, it's done right.

That being said, if anybody tried replicating Barry Burn on an American course, the hue and cry would be substantial.  That thing drunkenly crosses play on 18 in three places!

oh...and at Oklahoma City golf and country club, they have a meandering burn on the back that is a devious hazard as well

[Bill Brightly]

Somerset Hills in New Jersey (Tillinghast) has a great "ditch": the old horse racing oval the is in the middle of the course. Only played the course once, but I recall trying and failing to carry it with my driver on one hole. Had I laid up I would have had a 4 iron, but in the ditch, I had a great lie but no club that would get high enough and far enough to reach the green. Very cool design by Tilly by just using what was already there!

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