[John Mayhugh]

If we want to talk about rules that are unfair, this one wouldn't be my first choice.   

JVB makes very good points from the perspective of someone who has to run competitions.  You sign your scorecard to confirm that the score that is turned in is correct.  There is no reasonable way to get around that requirement.  As far as having to sign the scorecard before you leave, the reason is simple.  You have a committee waiting for scores.  What are they to do if someone hasn't signed their card and left the course?  Just wait until it is convenient for the person to do so? 

I know that Ms. Wie had just left the general area, but the committee has to define some point at which the card is deemed to have been turned in.  Is it the scoring tent?  An outlined area outside the tent?  The parking lot?  The club boundaries?  The city limits? You have to draw the line somewhere if the committee is to be able to run the tournament effectively.  For Michelle Wie, the line was just too close.

Seems that all the LPGA did wrong was not knowing much earlier that this had happened.

[JohnV]

JVB,

My response to your last post would be from the Rules of Golf:

33-7. Disqualification Penalty; Committee Discretion - A penalty of disqualification may in exceptional individual cases be waived, modified or imposed if the Committee considers such action warranted.

How difficult is it to use discretion in this case?

Its right there in the rule book....unlike leaving the scorers tent which as far as I know is not in the rule book.

My two cent conspriacy theory would be is that there are at least a handful of people on the LPGA tour who love to see her fall on her face, and so were militant in thier application of this "non-golf rule".  If this was indeed the case, the irony is so thick it could be sliced with a knife.

Because the Rules of Golf don't allow it.  Decision 33-7/3 and 33-7/4 both make it clear that the competitor is responsible for the correctness of the card and that the Committee can not waive the penalty.

JVB,

Will all due respect, those decisions apply explicitly for not signing a card, or signing an incorrect card.  IN THIS CASE, MW did neither.  She did in fact sign the scorecard, and it was in fact correct.

So I'm not seeing how this applies.....

She did not sign it before returning it to the Committee.

Those decisions make it very obvious (at least to me and all other rules officials I know) that the Committee should not waive a DQ for returning an incorrect or incomplete card.

The only reason she got to sign it was because some person or persons did the wrong thing.  She was DQ'ed long before she got to sign it.  She (and the LPGA Tour) just didn't find out about it until today.

[Tim Gavrich]

she's got nobody to blame but herself...everyone else in the tournament seems to have complied, yes??

Why does it all rely on players? Does organizers have no responsibility? Why rely on single point of failure? Why can't you just let official score keepers work with players to make sure that the scores are handled correctly???

It's the players who are PLAYING the game!  Are we to lower our standards to the point where all players need to do is hit the ball?  No need to know the rules...someone else is there to know them for you.  No need to keep score...someone else is there to do that for you.  It's the ultimate nanny-state, and it's totally unnecessary.  If you excuse irresponsibility, you get more irresponsibility.

It's like colleges that allow students one free pass on plagiarism.  What the heck kind of message does that send?  So when a high-profile player makes yet another mistake, suddenly a rule that has been in place for goodness-knows how long becomes stupid.

Whenever I'm playing in a tournament and I enter the scoring area, I double- and triple-check my score because I don't want to mess it up and get disqualified.  It was a dumb move on Wie's part, and she's owned up to it.  Let's move on; let's not destroy the high standards to which players are held just because of a dumb move by the ultimate wishful-thinking golden girl of golf.

[JohnV]

In a perfect world the following happens.

When the group at an tour event comes into the scoring area, the walking scorer and the caddies also can come in.  At the US Open, where there is a rules official with every group, he or she also comes in.

Each player keeps his own score on a small strip that can be torn off the card of the other player.  She then takes that "tear strip" and lays it up against her official card which was kept by another player and makes sure the scores are the same.  Any errors can be fixed.  Many players also ask the walking scorer to read back the scores he/she had written down as a double check.  At the US Open they also see these scores on the computer screen that is in the scoring area and can compare them.

At some point, the marker and the player sign the card.  They could have even done it at the start of the round if they had wanted to do so.

Once the scores are checked and the card signed it can be handed to the official at the table and he/she will validate that it is correct.  Once  the official has validated that there there are 18 scores and 2 signatures (hopefully the correct two), the player can leave.

Unfortunately players frequently don't go through all this process and sometimes even ones who are smart enough to go to Stanford get DQ'ed for screwing up the process.

[PThomas]

she's got nobody to blame but herself...everyone else in the tournament seems to have complied, yes??

Why?

Why isn't the official scorer forced to make sure that all scorecard handed in is complete, accurate, and signed?

What the heck are they doing that is so important that they can't take 5 minutes to check the scorecards coming in?

Why does it all rely on players? Does organizers have no responsibility? Why rely on single point of failure? Why can't you just let official score keepers work with players to make sure that the scores are handled correctly???

its the players responsibility, simple as that...always been that way...and until they change the rules that's simply the way it is

come on, their job isn't that complicated...play a round of golf, follow the rules while you do - and if any doubts call for help - then sign your card properly

sounds pretty easy to me, esp if YOU DO THAT FOR A LIVING!

[Tim Gavrich]

Tim - Your post highlights my point.  She was not DQ'd for failing to sign, she was DQ'd for taking four extra steps.  In your analogy, imagine I walk into the professors office to hand in my exam.  I thank him for teaching me, turn around and walk out.  I take four steps down the hall turn back around walk back into his office and say "Professor, I forgot to sign the honor code."  He would hand me back my exam to sign and that would be that.  In this LPGA case, she was tossed from the university for a violation of four steps and less than 10 seconds.

I take a bad drop on my first shot of a par five and I can penalize myself and go back at any point up until I play tee off the next hole.  I record a wrong score, I can fix it at any point until I turn the card in.  Examples abound where the rules allow for fixing material mistakes.  Here a take four steps out of a tent where volunteers were gawking at me instead of doing their jobs and I am DQ'd, even though I broke no rule that gave me an advantage on the course - lunacy!

BTW - I am not apologizing for Wie.  She broke the rule and the punishment is stated.  I am lambasting the LPGA for having such a stupid rule, that is so black and white and so penal and has absolutely nothing to do with the golf on the course.  The USGA rule (I wrote it in an earlier post) would not have even penalized her for this offense, let alone DQ'd her.

David--

No.  I said that if you fail to pledge your work, all that might happen is that you might invite some suspicion at the worst.  Signing one's scorecard and pledging one's exam are not exactly the same.  I was highlighting the overarching theme; honor and integrity.  If you no longer require players to sign their scorecards, you open the door for cheaters because there's no punishment for trying to get away with it.  I've seen people try to sign for a lower score than they shot.  If you let him recant his attempt to cheat and accept his actual, higher score, then all you're saying is that he should just try not to get caught next time.  I think that is beyond unacceptable.

Yes, PGA and LPGA players don't really try to cheat because lots of people are watching.  But, seeing as they're playing for thousands or millions of dollars, one would think that they would be THAT MUCH more careful to sign a correct scorecard.

It's all about where to draw the line, as John Vander Borght has said.  You need to draw a line in the sand somewhere.  Quibbling about the square footage of the official scoring area is silly.

[Craig Sweet]

I assume there's only 2 or 3 competitors in the "scorers tent" at anyone time?  How difficult is it for the officials to say..."have you double checked your scores, have you signed the cards"?   OR...as you are walking out the door..."hey, you still need to sign this!".....

Personally, I think its the craziest system in sports...or should I say rule(s)?

[Ryan Farrow]

This breaks pretty much every notion of spirit of the game that I ever felt about golf.  She returned to sign the card, she didn't leave without doing this, she got the job done, and she did the right thing.  Yet there is a magical vortex on the outside of the thent where she is transformed into another person, and therefore invalidating what she did on the last 5 hours on the course?

And does a DQ really fit the crime here??  Seriously, does it really fit the crime?  A player hits a ball out of frustration while its still moving because it won't stay on a green, say at Pinehurst, and the guy breaks the spirit of the rules of golf in quite possibily the worst way, and all he gets is a two stroke penalty?  Yet in a different case the round is over, you stand up and put your big toe over a line in the sand and your DQ'd?

I still say what the hell is that?

Truer words have never been spoken. I don't mean to sound like your butt boy here, but if anyone can read this and disagree, they are truly pathetic and unreasonable human beings. Not to mention a person whom I would never care to play the game of golf with.

[Doug Ralston]

In a perfect world the following happens.

When the group at an tour event comes into the scoring area, the walking scorer and the caddies also can come in.  At the US Open, where there is a rules official with every group, he or she also comes in.

Each player keeps his own score on a small strip that can be torn off the card of the other player.  She then takes that "tear strip" and lays it up against her official card which was kept by another player and makes sure the scores are the same.  Any errors can be fixed.  Many players also ask the walking scorer to read back the scores he/she had written down as a double check.  At the US Open they also see these scores on the computer screen that is in the scoring area and can compare them.

At some point, the marker and the player sign the card.  They could have even done it at the start of the round if they had wanted to do so.

Once the scores are checked and the card signed it can be handed to the official at the table and he/she will validate that it is correct.  Once  the official has validated that there there are 18 scores and 2 signatures (hopefully the correct two), the player can leave.

Unfortunately players frequently don't go through all this process and sometimes even ones who are smart enough to go to Stanford get DQ'ed for screwing up the process.

Listen to this!

Once again with "SHE BROKE THE RULE! HANG HER!!!".

Of course we know she broke the rules. The absurdity is in how those rules are enforced. DQ = Death Penaly. Does that not seem a little out of proportion with her 'crime', which in no way sough advantage nor put any other to disadvantage?

Why do you think humans should be a bunch of automatons, mindlessly doing what they do to strictures enforced without thought to context?

As for liberty, rules are needed to promote it, but mindless assigning of rule/penaly without context absolutely insures it's loss.

She broke the rules. So now what? That is the proper question, and damned sure the answer is NOT the same in all circumstances.

Doug

[J_ Crisham]

I get a kick out of all the Wie supporters who disappeared better & faster than any Howard Hughes could.

Saw she shot 81 today in the 1st round of the Women's Open.

Enjoyed watching her but have to say that Team Wie pushed this gal far beyond what she could handle. I wish her well but have to say to all the Wie proponents you defended her beyond all elements of rationality. I see much less of the blame on her but more so on her dad and the entire entourage associated with her.

A pity indeed but there may be hope after she concludes her time at college.

We shall see.

Matt, Do you still feel she is unable to handle playing at the highest levels? Her 3 rounds looked pretty solid despite the scoring gaffe.

[Glenn Spencer]

This travesty in the name of 'rules' sickens me.

Doug

It doesn't sicken me as much as people thinking that the rules should change in the last 2 minutes of a basketball game or in overtime of a hockey game.

If you allow the officials on site to determine when to bend rules like this, at some point, someone will bend it way too far and that will be a travesty.

The best thing about the Rules of Golf is that they draw pretty firm lines for things like this.  By taking a firm line on this, it makes it real obvious to the player what their basic responsibilities are.  I can't see why anyone thinks it is so much of a onus to put on  a player to have to remember to sign the d**n card.  I suppose that if you forget to sign a check the bank should just figure that you meant to and cash it for the guy who brings it in.

When I was working the Futures Tour, we had a player who did everything she was supposed to do with her scorecard except she didn't turn it in and instead put it in her back pocket and went to dinner.  We were trying to make the cut and couldn't find the card.  We thought it might have been lost as we knew she had been in the scoring tent.  We finally called her.  She didn't even realize it until we called her on her cellphone.  I suppose you think that she also should be let back into the tournament.  Well, suppose she didn't have a cell phone or the battery was dead so we couldn't get in touch until she showed up the next day.  How could we make the cut or do pairings for the next day?

JVB,

What would happen if a card can't be located? Say, that girl had thrown it out or changed pants and said she didn't have it? What would the committee do?


It seems strange that that in golf, you have the option to cheat all day and then you aren't given the benefit of the doubt. The gates would be a better scoring area to me and so would 5 minutes time, just in case. I know they don't, but anything less seems like they want something to happen. In all seriousness, where is the fire?

[John_Conley]

she's got nobody to blame but herself...everyone else in the tournament seems to have complied, yes??

Paul, how would anyone know?  One problem I see with the Rules of Golf for high-level (televised) competition is that there are differing numbers of eyeballs on you.  Thursday?  Nobody.  Get in contention?  Everyone.  To the point that home viewers have called in to call infractions, which I first remember when Stadler laid down the towel.  It has happened a few times since.

Wie signed her card.  Right away?  In the right chair?  No.  But I don't care where Norman signed, or if he let Chrissy hold the pencil while he rubbed her arm.  He deserves to play Sunday and so does Michelle.

My bank won't let me sign in pencil, why does golf?  There's a lot of odd stuff about scorecards.

Anyone remember the guy that was penalized (DQ'd?) for marking his ball with a room key in Europe?  This makes about as much sense.

[Mike_Clayton]

John,

That was David Feherty and it was in America.

[John_Conley]

JVB, you obviously have a world of experience in this area.  I will, however, point out that you are looking at it from one side.  All your above posts are making the point that it is a slippery slope to interpret rules on a case-by-case basis.

The problem I have with this, and I'm obviously not the only one, is you are placing ALL of the burden on players even though there are wildly different setups.

If I play an event locally, I can switch cards with my playing partner and sign with him.  Only once we turn them in does our score go up on the board.  We can sign behind the green, in a golf car, or at a table near the board.  As Wigler mentions, if we were at risk for not getting a card in someone would prompt us with a reminder.

The LPGA has a designated area for this like the PGA Tour has (had?) for autographs?  Wow.  College basketball coaches routinely step outside their box and only sometimes receive a technical.  Quit acting like life's rules like this are enforced consistently.  They're not.

Because of that, I think it would be nice for an event of this stature (LPGA Tour stop) to have a setup in place where one COULDN'T get past them without signing.  Obviously the event failed that standard.

Miss Wie has no incentive to not sign.  It wasn't like she was in the Rule 88 zone.

[John_Conley]

John,

That was David Feherty and it was in America.

Okay then, a European player that was disqualified for an infraction on the PGA Tour (marker needs to be round) that would not have been an infraction on the European PGA Tour (no such stipulation).

Thanks for the clarification.

I'll suggest Rule 36...if the committee feels no advantage has been gained a warning can be issued in place of a penalty.  I think in soccer that's called, "play on."

[Richard Choi]

JVB,

Your scenario is nowhere near a "perfect world".

I am a process guy myself. Albeit my process deals with technology, but process none the less.

And number one in designing a process is to make sure that there is no single point of failure. Make sure that there are system checks built in so that if mistakes are made, the corrections are made before problems arise.

Golf rules regarding scoring and related DQ's are just ridiculuous. It is designed for failure. Albeit is not likely, but it relies on single source of actions in many key steps which guarantees that things will go wrong.

A simple change to share to responsibility for collecting scorecards to score officials and players would simplify and clarify things for everyone.

Make it a player's responsibility to record the score, but make it a score official's responsibility to review and collect it. This way no one would ever DQ. It is a simple change that would benefit everyone.

It is asinine that the world of golf has to even discuss about something like this.

[Kevin Pallier]

Wie is ultimately responsible for her DQ - her and her alone - as the rules are the same for everyone.

The LPGA need a rocketing though for allowing her to play the 3rd round though - she should have been DQed long before that.

[Glenn Spencer]

JVB, you obviously have a world of experience in this area.  I will, however, point out that you are looking at it from one side.  All your above posts are making the point that it is a slippery slope to interpret rules on a case-by-case basis.

The problem I have with this, and I'm obviously not the only one, is you are placing ALL of the burden on players even though there are wildly different setups.

If I play an event locally, I can switch cards with my playing partner and sign with him.  Only once we turn them in does our score go up on the board.  We can sign behind the green, in a golf car, or at a table near the board.  As Wigler mentions, if we were at risk for not getting a card in someone would prompt us with a reminder.

The LPGA has a designated area for this like the PGA Tour has (had?) for autographs?  Wow.  College basketball coaches routinely step outside their box and only sometimes receive a technical.  Quit acting like life's rules like this are enforced consistently.  They're not.

Because of that, I think it would be nice for an event of this stature (LPGA Tour stop) to have a setup in place where one COULDN'T get past them without signing.  Obviously the event failed that standard.

Miss Wie has no incentive to not sign.  It wasn't like she was in the Rule 88 zone.

I think you have seen the last event where this isn't the case. Good job for a volunteer to have.

[JohnV]

John,

That was David Feherty and it was in America.

It was and after that the local rule which was authorized was removed from the rule book and the tours were told not to use it.  He would no longer be penalized.

Things do change, just as the Stewart Cink incident caused a change and the Mark Roe / Jesper Parnevik score card incident at the 2003 Open caused a change.

Kevin,

The LPGA says they didn't find out about it until after she had teed off on Saturday.  They could have gone out and stopped her and the rest of the group while they got her side of the story, they felt that would be disruptive.  I have no problem with them waiting in this case.

Richard,

I agree that there should be a better process, my post on my blog which I made long before getting into this discussion says the LPGA should have a staff person in the tent to check everything before the player leaves.  The USGA does, the PGA Tour usually does, there is no reason the LPGA can't.  Even then, mistakes happen.   There was one where there were two signatures on the card, unfortunately neither one was for the player whose card it was (the other two players accidentally both signed it.)

I guess I still fail to see where it is so hard to require a player to take a couple of very simple steps: Check the Scores, Sign the Card and Make sure the person who wrote down the scores signs the card.  There are plenty of ways to check all this out to make sure there are no mistakes.  Trouble is the players don't want to go through all that because they are so d**n smart they don't need any help.  In the end, they will be the ones to pay for their mistake, just as I did once.

I remember meeting with two of my teammates the day after I forgot to sign my card and our team had to count a 90 instead of my 78.  They were going to give me a lot of grief.  I just looked at them and said, "I f**ked up".  They said it wasn't going to be any fun if I admitted my mistake, but it was my mistake so what else could I do?

As an official who sits at the scoring table a lot, I'm willing to let a player sit there until he is totally happy with his card and has had me double or triple check it.  Unfortunately we get times where the guys get together off the green and one guy brings all the cards to us, or they just walk up and throw them on the table.  Even though I ask them to wait until I've checked it, I'm not going to forcibly hold them until I have.  Guess what, if someone was stupid enough not to sign his card, he pays the price and there would absolutely nothing I can do about it.

[Kalen Braley]

I'm sensing a disconnect here in what is being said and what is done.

The claim is being made that its the players and only the players responsiblilty to:

Play the game correctly......  OK
Make sure to penalize themselves when appropriate.....  I can go with this
Keep track of thier score.....fair enough.
Make sure thier equipment is conforming.....shouldn't be hard.
Ensure they have the proper amount of clubs in the bag....I can go with this too.
Turn in an accurately signed card...I can even go with this.

Well if all this is even the case, why even have officials show up to the tourney?  Much less over-run the place with score keepers, officials, onlookers, and people otherwise to ensure fair play?  If the game is self policing, why are all these people jammed in for every tournament.  Seems a bit of big brother looking over the shoulder.....granted in just a purely advisory way right?

Surely they can keep track of all this on thier own.  They would never have need for scoring officials or otherwise. After all, its all on them, and these other folks who show up share no responsibilty or otherwise right?

Ahhh, I forgot, big hole in my thinking, who will keep the rogue tent deserters in check... 

[George Pazin]

I read threads like this - seemingly silly rules things, that is - and I always think, man, if I'm ever in trouble, I hope my wife goes to JVB for advice. A more level headed fellow you may never find.

 

Lotsa inexcusables to go around in this situation, but imho, none with the rulesmakers.

I'm sad for Wiesy - going head to head with Yani Tseng would've been pretty cool.

[Will MacEwen]

I generally don't have a problem with the Stadler type rulings, etc.  Golf isn't refereed - we don't want a culture of players getting away with things like in most sports.

However, in this case, I feel like she submitted her signed card, her score was accurate, the card was accepted and she teed off the next day.  If she had signed for a wrong score, a DQ at anytime would be appropriate.  However, it seems like the LPGA should be estopped from the DQ remedy for accepting the card and letting her play on. 

[JohnV]

Kalen,

If nobody is watching the golf tournament, you wouldn't need a lot of those.  Take it off TV and get the spectators out of there and they can play and just turn in the cards at the end of the round just like at the local club every weekend.  The walking scorers are there strictly for the spectators and TV viewers.

The officials are there to help the players when they don't know what to do.  But, you could get rid of them on the course if you just teach the players to use Rule 3-3 when they are in doubt of what to do.

You still need someone to add up the scorecards at the end and to resolve those 3-3 issues.

I realize you are being facetious (at least I hope you are.)

[MargaretC]

The problem with this is there is plenty of blame to go around.

Michelle accepted the mistake as hers as she didn't sign the card. That is true, but....

The caddie deserves some blame in this as well for not being on top of this.

And the LPGA deserves some blame as well. If they are going to be firm on no-signing-once-you-leave-the-tent, then they need to have a staff person in there. Got bless volunteers, but I can only imagine that some lady who shoots 115 at Illini Country Club was in charge of scoring. There's too much cash involved in this to do that.

I don't know the answer to this, but I wouldn't be surprised if the AJGA doesn't leave scoring to volunteers.

I have volunteered at AJGA events and the golfers are responsible for keeping score, not volunteers.

Each of our 6 children play golf (to some degree) and we have purchased videos, etc. to teach them the rules of golf.  If there is ONE rule that they know it is 6-6b.  Primarily because it gets reinforced every time a Pro is DQ'd on the Tour.  When they hear that someone has been DQ'd they say, "C'mon.  How hard is it to remember that?"

What I find most disconcerting, with all due respect, is that excuses are being made by adults.  We tell our kids that it is okay if they think a rule is stupid, but they have a choice, follow the rules or don't, but if you don't, you have to live with the consequences.  No whining! 

If you don't like the rule, do something constructive to change it, but in the meantime, follow it or face the consequences.  C'mon, how hard is that?

[MargaretC]

I'm really sorry that so many people think this is so hard to do and such a burden to impose on a player.

For heaven's sake, is it HARD to remember to sign a check?  Is it HARD to remember to sign a letter?  Is it HARD to remember to sign a birthday card?  NO!

These people are earning a living by playing golf and they should know the rules better than anyone.

A score card is an official document.  I wasn' going to respond and probably shouldn't have, but my husband and I were reading these posts and, I'm sorry, I just had to "vent my spleen" so to speak.

Sorry, guys, for intruding in your dialogue, but...  G'night!   

I will amend my diatribe by saying that IMO, the LPGA demonstrated to me, that they are, to a degree "bush league" insofar as Michelle should NEVER been permitted to tee-off Saturday.  Something as significant as a DQ, they should have called her at a hotel on Friday.  That IMHO, is VERY poor administration on the part of the LPGA.

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