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Wyatt Halliday

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Has your philosophy on architecture changed?
« on: June 26, 2008, 04:48:29 PM »
I often wonder if the personal philosophy of architecture can change over time.

For the longtime contributors here, I wonder if their opinion of architecture has changed since the inception of this site. It would be interesting to see what was the seminal moment or course that shaped the foundation of their architectural beliefs.

For the newer contributors, I wonder if this board has influenced the way you see architecture. Is there a specific course you once considered great, only to revisit it and experience a let down? Has the development of your GCA education somehow diminished or enhanced the actual playing experience for you? It gets me to wondering if the eureka moment for me was on the course, or in front of a keyboard.

Is there a specific post or theory that you have read which had a profound affect on the way you look at GCA?

WH

Tony_Chapman

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Re: Has your philosophy on architecture changed?
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2008, 04:56:51 PM »
Wyatt -- I remember when I first was posting that someone started a huge thread with pictures of NGLA. I was enamored with it. That'd be my keyboard moment.

My course moment came when I walked a $40 public course in my home state full of cornfields with Mr. Huckaby and Mr. Sweeney. On the third hole, Mr. Sweeney piped up and said, "The setting of the clubhouse on the hill and the greatness of this place reminds me of Shinnecock."

No way I thought....

That $40 course certainly introduced me to how much fun golf can be when played firm and fast.

Wyatt Halliday

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has your philosophy on architecture changed?
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2008, 05:15:48 PM »
Tony,

For 200- What is Wildhorse?

WH

Tony_Chapman

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Re: Has your philosophy on architecture changed?
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2008, 05:20:38 PM »
Ding, ding, ding. You know, you certainly have the coolest initials. You need yourself a Wild Horse hat with the WH brand. It would be way cooler than my Minnesota Twins hat with the TC logo.  ;D

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has your philosophy on architecture changed?
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2008, 06:16:08 PM »
Wyatt, After I stopped chuckling after reading the Pete Dye interview I perused the website. At that time the introduction read something like this "If you enjoy golf in a natural setting we think you'll enjoy this website". At that nano-second my brain ran through many of the natural settings I had experienced to that point, and the feelings I had had while experiencing them.  At that time I was privileged to be Caddying on the Monterey peninsula. One bunker in particular caught my eye. It was on the front left of the 16th hole at Spanish Bay. Carved from the natural dune behind it, the transition to native plant material literally spoke to me. It was even louder when the bunker was soon altered to look like the remainder with manicured surrounds.
Since then I have been able to recognize the differences of feelings in not only macro but micro architecture. 
 
Back in those days the treehouse was a bit more frank, much more on point, and, very educational.

The best education as far as I was concerned related to fundamentals. Now it seems there's those who pontificate there are favored architects and courses attributed to some cult status on this website and that that's a bad thing. Being rooted in fundamentals shouldn't be denigrated, it should be saluted. :o

"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Wyatt Halliday

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has your philosophy on architecture changed?
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2008, 06:43:02 PM »
Wyatt, After I stopped chuckling after reading the Pete Dye interview I perused the website. At that time the introduction read something like this "If you enjoy golf in a natural setting we think you'll enjoy this website". At that nano-second my brain ran through many of the natural settings I had experienced to that point, and the feelings I had had while experiencing them.  At that time I was privileged to be Caddying on the Monterey peninsula. One bunker in particular caught my eye. It was on the front left of the 16th hole at Spanish Bay. Carved from the natural dune behind it, the transition to native plant material literally spoke to me. It was even louder when the bunker was soon altered to look like the remainder with manicured surrounds.
Since then I have been able to recognize the differences of feelings in not only macro but micro architecture. 
 
Back in those days the treehouse was a bit more frank, much more on point, and, very educational.

The best education as far as I was concerned related to fundamentals. Now it seems there's those who pontificate there are favored architects and courses attributed to some cult status on this website and that that's a bad thing. Being rooted in fundamentals shouldn't be denigrated, it should be saluted. :o




Adam,

This is exactly the type of response I was hoping to elicit. I get the most out of the treehouse when it is educational first. If anything, maybe some additional shared experiences from others can help shift the focus.

I can still remember first stumbling upon the Lines of Charm discussions, and more recently perusing a new thread referencing the wonderful Theory of Time by Mr. Kirk. Oddly enough I had somehow missed this incredibly insightful piece for my 3+ years of following the site. It now seems that my time on GCA is spent buried in the search feature, looking through history. There are still profound insights to be had, I'm just afraid I miss the majority of them.

WH

Adam Clayman

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Re: Has your philosophy on architecture changed?
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2008, 10:25:04 PM »
Wyatt, Hopefully, somewhere down under, there's a cache of the old treehouse.
Most was lost to our access when the popularity caused an upgrade to the software. Ran apparently tried to transfer many of the threads but obviously did some heavy editing.

In an effort to relay some of Ran's current sentiments to those who continually ignore the request  to keep OT threads to a minimum, I've made a request to Ran, to quote him in a recent email. As much as I want to post it, I feel the need to wait for the OK. Suffice to say there's very little interest in any thread OT.


"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Tom Huckaby

Re: Has your philosophy on architecture changed?
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2008, 11:54:52 PM »
I have no particular philosophy on architecture, but I have had too many eureka moments to count.  Interestingly one occurred just last week, when in the discussion of Pacific Dunes it came out through several people that looking at a golf hole in a vaccum is not the best way to assess its worthiness... that fitting it into the context of the course, how it fits in the course as a whole, matters quite a lot also.. and as such a golf hole that doesn't seem all that great on its own might attain a greatness due to how it fits into the course.  That might be fundamental to some but it only really struck me last week.

Interesting such a thing could happen in a forum whose past is so much better than its present and is so ravaged by off topic threads.
 ;)


Jordan Caron

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has your philosophy on architecture changed?
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2008, 12:49:18 AM »
Over the years, I have enjoyed the courses I play more and more rather then the scores I shoot.  Growing up, I instantly fell in love with the game.  However, as I continued to play, I got better and better and thus had big dreams playing the game professionally.  Golf became very competitive for me and I overlooked a great aspect of the game in architecture.  There was an opportunity when I was 17 to play in an International Match in Scotland on courses such as The Old Course and Carnoustie (right after the '99' Open Championship).  Regretting it now, I choose to play in a team match in Denver which was a higher profile event and thus better for my college resume.  I played well in the event but didn't garner any attention when it came time to recruitment.  Big mistake!!!

I grew up on a great little 9 hole course original designed by A.V. Macan.  I then joined a modern Les Furber designed and played there for 6 years along with many other Furber designs throughout the province.  Did I ever think those Furber designs were great because they were long and really put a premium on your long game.  Since moving to Victoria and playing Royal Colwood for a year and now working at Victoria Golf Club for 7 years, I have a greater appreciation for the older classics and subtlety's .  Now longer do modern 7500 yard courses with  un-natural slopes and movements excite me like they use to.  This change in tastes has brought me to a new passion and that is researching and conversing about some of the great courses in the world.  Now I enjoy playing the game regardless of what I shoot as I try to create golf shots that the architecture wanted you to play.  I love hitting 115 yard punch, cut 7 irons into the wind while others blast PW and fly it 80 yards!
« Last Edit: June 27, 2008, 12:53:14 AM by Jordan Caron »

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Has your philosophy on architecture changed?
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2008, 07:36:19 AM »
Jordan

Good to see you have seen the light and
are now able to enjoy the game to the full. 

Continue to have fun.

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has your philosophy on architecture changed?
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2008, 08:41:36 AM »
Reading Doak's "Anatomy of a Golf Course," and Shackelford's "Grounds for Golf," had more impact than anything.

I have often recommended "Grounds" as a primer for people who want to understand why they like or hate a golf course.

K
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Tony_Chapman

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Re: Has your philosophy on architecture changed?
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2008, 09:22:34 AM »
I have often recommended "Grounds" as a primer for people who want to understand why they like or hate a golf course.

K

Perfect comment. That book sits on my shelf and love to pull it out every once in awhile.

Wyatt Halliday

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has your philosophy on architecture changed?
« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2008, 09:47:47 AM »
Now longer do modern 7500 yard courses with  un-natural slopes and movements excite me like they use to. 

Jordan,

I have a similar feeling that mirrors this statement. My previous definition of what makes a course good or great placed too much emphasis on difficulty and aesthetics, and little on the fun factor that comes with different options of play.

This all changed the first time I realized that short grass could be a hazard.

WH


Tony,

Thanks for the idea. When I do finally make it to Wild Horse I will purchase a lid, just to throw my friends off kilter if nothing else.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has your philosophy on architecture changed?
« Reply #13 on: June 27, 2008, 10:00:57 AM »
When one rejects one's own opinions and attempts to look at the subject from a different perspective they are then on the road to evaluate exactly what elements make golf the great sport it is, and, the importance of how the interfacing with architecture matters.

Juxtapose to those who only want their game highlighted by having the golf course prepared in a predictable manner.

A great example might be found at Glencoe GC. on the north shore of Chicago. A recent change in Super's, who is a grass growing guru, has elicited the cries of the self concerned. By drying out the greens, which were a soggy disease ridden mess, Dave has brought back concepts like rub o' green and unpredictable bounces and rolls. It's a first step.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Tony_Chapman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has your philosophy on architecture changed?
« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2008, 10:12:24 AM »
A great example might be found at Glencoe GC. on the north shore of Chicago. A recent change in Super's, who is a grass growing guru, has elicited the cries of the self concerned. By drying out the greens, which were a soggy disease ridden mess, Dave has brought back concepts like rub o' green and unpredictable bounces and rolls. It's a first step.

Adam -- We've had the same thing happen over at Dad's course in York. The old super was a fiasco, who over-watered and never top-dressed. Now, they top-dress greens every two weeks, the place isn't wall-to-wall green anymore and the ball bounces, what a concept. It's more fun than it's been in 10+ years.

Wyatt Halliday

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has your philosophy on architecture changed?
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2008, 10:20:49 AM »
Adam,

I recently revisited a course that I used to consider as the best I had played. It had been quite a few years since I had been there, so I was eager to see it again. While big, brawny, and very difficult, it did not have the same appeal to me that it once had. There were very few elements of the course that left you bewildered (which I like). No real elements of strategy presented themselves. Positioning from the tee mattered little, and the bunkering seemed superfluous. The only thing that really mattered was hitting the ball as far as possible, and staying out of the near unplayable rough.

"A long slog" probably isn't the correct phrase, but it's the first one that comes to mind.

What I did realize is that my tastes had changed. Fun had replaced difficulty, aesthetics or prestige.

WH

Matt MacIver

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Re: Has your philosophy on architecture changed?
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2008, 10:23:43 AM »
My philosophy hasn't changed - but after finding this site and reading some relevant books I actually have a fledging philosophy.  And as importantly, I've gotten one colleague on my Green Committee to start reading some books, and we're actually having substantive GCA dialogue!

Adam Clayman

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Re: Has your philosophy on architecture changed?
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2008, 11:11:30 AM »
Tony, I can't help but think WH's influences are being felt throughout the region. I'd be very keen to see the new and improved YCC. One aspect I'm trying to explain to Dave's assistant, Eddie, is that you can't just dry out the greens. They might need to meld, and likely expand, the green surrounds with something other than the standard yard of low mow collar transition to long rough. Unless of course, the surrounds are now drier and getting bounces too.
 Has the new guy in York considered a different presentation? I'll bet the JE holes are even more difficult with firmer greens, save for maybe the 13th.
Any talk of tree pruning, or have this years winds done the job?

WH- A long slog seems like the perfect description.  If you'll send me your snail mail addy next time at WH I'll get you a hat. What's your color range? Are you an autumn? (That was for JB)


"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Brent Hutto

Re: Has your philosophy on architecture changed?
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2008, 11:25:35 AM »
I had no philosophy of architecture when I first started participating in this forum other than knowing I enjoyed courses that were "core routings" instead of winding through housing tracts and that drainage was everything, playing as I do most of my rounds in a warm climate with plenty of rainfall year-round.

Then after a few months here my philosophy started developing along stereotypical GCA geek lines. Be able to play the course with a putter. Width and options. Angles should matter more than length. Bunkers are best used when playing close to them offers a partial-stroke reward. Have as many half-par holes as practical on any course.

Of late I've been exposed to courses in a variety of settings...my native Southeastern USA, Northern California, links and inland courses in the UK, a few courses in the Midwest. And I've come almost full circle back to my original, unformed ideas of a few years ago. Give me a course that is routed compactly, that drains well and that has tight turf and firm greens and the details of architecture matter very little. It is more fun to play golf on a boring, unstrategic routing with round greens and little architectural nuance but with a brisk ground game, unpredictable bounces and maybe even a little wind than to play a design that MacKenzie, Coore&Crenshaw or Ross would consider absolutely perfect if it were overwatered and had to be approached with entirely point-to-point tactics through the air.

I still love facing a tricky angle that could have been made easier by flirting with a fairway bunker. And I appreciate all the subtleties that sufficient width and angled approach shots can provide. But what I really love is playing the game both through the air and on the ground in perfect combination.

Sean_A

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Re: Has your philosophy on architecture changed?
« Reply #19 on: June 27, 2008, 11:43:38 AM »
I never really developed a a philosophy until about 10-12 years ago and not much has changed since then other than I found that I prefer courses with minimal bunkering.  Other than the usual stuff on here I really like grade level greens - at least for the entrances; short on yardage and par; stand alone bunkers & trees.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has your philosophy on architecture changed?
« Reply #20 on: June 27, 2008, 06:07:58 PM »
Adam, nice to see you appreciate Dave Arden's efforts at Glencoe.  I hired him to be my super at Willowhill when he was just a lowly 2nd assist at Ivanhoe (we brought him over to there from Golf Club of Ill).  In 1984, dad was out at GCI late on a Sunday afternoon during Grow-in and came across a young Dave (16 or 17 yr).  He was the only one there - hand-watering newly seeded greens.  When Dick asked him why he was the only there, his answer "because it needs to be done" stuck.  So, now, with no college education he is a full super on Chicago's North Shore.
I hated to Dave leave but he deserved a better-paying gig.  I just chucle when I see courses that "passed" on him because he didn't have a turf degree.  Especially when he was at a course that was designed and managed by 2 ASGCA members and his 3rd Nugent designed course.  Oh yeah - what do we know!
PS, don't waste your time with Eddie.
Coasting is a downhill process

Wyatt Halliday

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Re: Has your philosophy on architecture changed?
« Reply #21 on: June 27, 2008, 11:08:23 PM »
Brent,

Thanks for chiming in. Can you give a few examples of courses that equally challenge the ground and air game?

Thanks,
WH

RJ_Daley

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Re: Has your philosophy on architecture changed?
« Reply #22 on: June 28, 2008, 08:53:25 AM »
I think I was subliminally tuned into GCA when I was about12 and we would go to Lawsonia on golf trips a few times a summer.  The uncle that taught me to golf would be very enthused and explain to me the great work the golf course architect did with creating the wild and wonderfull greens and bunkers that were so much fun and so much more interesting than the muni stuff we had back in our home town. 

Then, when I rekindled my interest in golf at late 30s, I began to think about the courses I was playing, and how they were different in style, yet nothing approached the sheer fun and excitiment of Lawsonia.  But, I had it wrong in those days of the late 80s.  I had read C&Ws book as an intro stdy of GCA, but was not fully understanding it, because I hadn't travelled and golfed at many great courses.  So, my knowledge was book learned at that point.

But (to make a long story shorter) I did get hooked on the game, then realised that my playing skill would never be too high, but really started to wonder more about the architecture.  I then went into a period where I was studying all the "wrong" ideas, thinking that GCA at its finest was GCA at its max, or the big mega dirt moving projects.   I started to visit golf construction sites, and got so interested, I started to really study golf course construction techniques and design principles.   I joined the GCSAA just to avail myself of their continuing ed courses, where I took Hurdzan's construction techniques seminar and various others related to design, remodelling, etc.  I had ideas of developing my own golf course project.  But, I was still in the mega construction mode of being wowed at the enormous efforts of ground shaping, and I was in the mindset of how cool all the buried elephants were as they 'contained' hole corridors and looked so nice and symetrical.  I thought the more interesting 'water courses' of artificial or enhanced streams, and interesting ponds with holes cleverly designed around them was the most artfully of design.  I was still not getting it.  I went to LV with an old cagy archie.  He was not enamored with all the glitz and extra expense and eyecandy of the trend at that time for big water projects, big earthmoving construction of buried elephants, etc.  We sat together at Wynn and Fazio's dog and pony show about Shadow Creek.  Of course, they were hyping that project and the contruction of it from nothing in the desert as the biggest thing in GCA, since they moved off the 'links'.  I went out to see the just finished course, and was still impressed, based on all the technical stuff the contruction folk had explained they did to get the ancient brook look, the imported trees, etc.  My willy old GCA friend, still rolled his eyes.  But, I was starting to listen to him more, considering the cost of all that glitz and that it really was not so related to the game as it was eyecandy and superfluous. 

Finally, not so much a seminal moment as a reorientation of thinking, in many ways through the on-going early discussions on GCA.com, and the old site we came from where I cyber met many of the old gang here, I began to see the minimalist value and reverence for intelligent use of natural golf routings and construction.   The preference for firm and fast conditions, the maintenance meld concepts of architecture and maintenance to bring out the best characteristics of golf design, slowly seeped into my understanding.

I took a ride out west on another matter, but decided to detour on my way back home to see what all the hub bub was about in Mullen, as I had read about SHGC opening the year before in Golf Course Management Magazine of the GCSAA.  I visited with Corey the super, got an immediate sense of his enthsiasm and mission for the maitenence meld of the entire minimalist nature of the project design, and was hooked as a theme ever since.

While I don't try to apply that minimalist sand hill design style or complete minimalist rigor to every course I see;  I do consider the economy of construction in all courses now, the design to maintenance overall scheme to achieve the best traditional golf playability, that being a nod towards presentation of firm and fast as often as possible, wide and varied FWs, natural green sites or manufactured ones to emmulate natural ground, with features tying into surrounding land, and hazard placements used for something beyond eyecandy with a real relationship to strategy and challenge. 

I am no longer wowed by the Shadow Creeks and Whistling Straits of the world (other than appreciate the talent of the constructors i a pure technical sense) for their shear exageration and over-the-top efforts of design.  Such mega projects are in my view wasteful, don't add to the common enjoyment of golf, and create eletism in a sort of race for extravagance, not really in tune with the craddle of the original game. 

People want to play more, not pay more (which was another seminal phrase that Tim Weiman coined on GCA.com and I firmly believe)
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has your philosophy on architecture changed?
« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2008, 10:03:09 AM »

PS, don't waste your time with Eddie.

Tim, I never waste my time with Edward.

It's a rather odd statement to make in a public forum. But, you're the architect. I can only assume character judgments like that have made you what you are today. 
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Mike_Cirba

Re: Has your philosophy on architecture changed?
« Reply #24 on: June 29, 2008, 10:23:36 AM »
There was a time when I considered the Concord Monster and Mount Airy (PA) as the epitome of great golf course architecture.

These days I'm starting to work my way into something bunkerless, unwatered, and almost completely minimalist...the type of course someone might build walking a plot of property and laying out 18 stakes on a Sunday afternoon.

I think we've complicated the hell out of golf and golf course architecture, needlessly.

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