[Dennis_Harwood]

Dennis - great minds - see my post above.

TH

Sorry Tom, I just "speed read" right past your post-- I am aware of the bogey rating, but as you know its usually not a part of most clubs posted info--whereas course rating and slope are--

For others (since you know this), as a quick example using two well known SoCal courses-- The South at Torrey from the Blacks is 78.1 (what a scratch is expected to shoot on average)- From its White tees (at 6800) its slope is 136-- Los Angeles South from the Blacks is 74.1 (not as tough for scratch) but from its Whites at 6750 (about the same yardage and course rating as TP's whites) its a 138 slope--LA is hence a little tougher for the 18.

[PCCraig]

I would say Kiawah - Ocean and WS in Kohler.

Pete Dye has to be a master at this.

How about the hardest for a scratch and the easiest for an 18???

Tom Fazio.

[Tom Huckaby]

Dennis - no problem!

And re bogey rating, it would take a little more work, but of course it can either be found (asking local associations) or calculated (use slope and rating to derive it).

It's just funny how these questions struck each of us the same way...that is, why speculate?  Go find the answers!

TH

[Bob Harris]

The USGA course rating database has the data.

http://63.240.106.223/natcrsrating/ncrlisting.aspx

A few examples:
Ocean Course   79.6    155
Torrey Pines     78.2    144
Pine Valley       75.2    155
BethPage          77.0   152
Wolf Creek        76.1   154

[Bill Brightly]

Oakmont is obvious.

But what about Baltustrol UPPER? That course will drive you NUTS the first time you play it.

And I never come close to my handicap at Metedeconk.

Pinehurst #2 gets knocked off the list because I was a 5 hdcp and shot 75 from the back tees the second time I played it this April. (My caddy was AWESOME! If any of you guys are in the Am and want a good caddy, let me know, this is the guy you want!)

[Wade Whitehead]

Royal New Kent

WW

[Sean Leary]

Prairie Dunes for both with the normal 15-20 wind.

[Andy Troeger]

The hardest courses I've played would have to include:

Promontory Ranch--Painted Valley
Butler National
Desert Forest
Wolf Run
Whistling Straits
Conservatory at Hammock Beach
Kampen at Purdue
TPC Sawgrass

Andy, if you think Conservatory is hard, go next door and play the Creek Course at Hammock Dunes!  Long forced carries.

Hmm...while I may end up playing it some day, just based on that description I think I'd pass! Conservatory has a rating of like 78 with slope 155 from the back, not that we played back there anyway, yikes!

[mark chalfant]

Evan...... for scratch


Oak Tree, Wakonda , Olympic Lake, Butler and  Kiawah. I mention  Oak Tree because  of wild contour in many fairways and  the sternly guarded often small greens

For 18 hcp:

Grand Traverse ,
Pine Valley, and Cascades.


Golden Horseshoe  and  Firestone North....   lots of water on both

[Dan Chapman]

The back tees at the Conservatory are just silly.

I'd also have to agree that Pinehurst #2 would be up there in scoring difficulty for a scratch player, as would Kiawah's Ocean course when the wind is really blowing.

[mark chalfant]

Would Carnoustie, Royal St. georges, or  Royal Hague fit the bill ?

[Gerry B]

my home course in Toronto - The National

4 tee boxes

par 71

white - 6002 yds- 70.8 / 142
blue - 6430  yds - 73.1 / 145
black - 6802 yds - 74.2 / 149
Gold - 7235 yds - 76.3 / 152

and the course plays longer than the yardage.

i have witnessed 18 handicappers not come close to breaking 100 on numerous occasions from the blue tees and scratch players blow their brains out from the tips -ie shoot mid 80's and higher on numerous occasions as well.
if the course grew the rough ala oakmont  it would be impossible for the 18 handicapper and problematic for the scratch player.

i concur re: Bethpage Black / Carnoustie and Oakmont.

[J_ Crisham]

Butler, Kiawah, Carnasty, and Oakland Hills as from personal experience.

[Steve Kline]

Oakmont is obvious.

But what about Baltustrol UPPER? That course will drive you NUTS the first time you play it.

And I never come close to my handicap at Metedeconk.

Pinehurst #2 gets knocked off the list because I was a 5 hdcp and shot 75 from the back tees the second time I played it this April. (My caddy was AWESOME! If any of you guys are in the Am and want a good caddy, let me know, this is the guy you want!)

Did you play the back tees or Open tees? The Open tees are never out. Two totally different golf courses. The rating from the Open tees is 75.0 or 76.0 - I can't remember which.

[Steve Kline]

Purgatory in Noblesville, IN has a rating of 78.1 from the tips. Although the slope is only 142.

[Chris Kane]

I am convinced that Carnoustie is a much tougher course for the 90 shooter than it is for the 70 shooter.

[JNC Lyon]

Oak Hill East for both.

[Brian_Sleeman]

Fully agreed on Crystal Downs.  Par was broken twice last year.  This season, the Michigan State golf team's low five came in two weeks after their Big Ten Championship win and played on a day when there was no wind, no long rough, and the greens were at their slowest - and the low guy shot 74 (par is 70).

[Jim Nugent]

Therefore the 5 highest rated slope numbers in the US at the tees you designated will be, under that system, the most difficult courses for an 18 handicap vs what a scratch golfer is expected to shoot.

The way you explain this is a bit confusing to me, so I'm going to restate slope the way I understand it. 

Slope does not tell you how hard the course is for bogey golfers.  (Bogey meaning someone with a 17 to 22 handicap.)  i.e. we can't simply look at slope to learn which are the 5 hardest courses for bogey. 

We have to also know the course rating.  If two courses have the same slope, the one with the higher course rating is tougher for bogey golfers.  At the same time, Course A with higher slope than Course B, may be easier for bogey golfers.

If you know slope and course rating, you can figure out Bogey Rating.  That tells you how hard the course supposedly is for bogey golfers. 

Of course, bogey and slop are just the raters' opinions.  There is no guarantee of consistency in the ratings, from course to course, from area to area.  I see lots of slope ratings that seem way off to me.  In particular, the tough courses like Oakmont and ANGC from the tips should have much higher bogey ratings.  Maybe the adjustments account for that.   

[Dennis_Harwood]

Of course, bogey and slop are just the raters' opinions.  There is no guarantee of consistency in the ratings, from course to course, from area to area.  I see lots of slope ratings that seem way off to me.  In particular, the tough courses like Oakmont and ANGC from the tips should have much higher bogey ratings.  Maybe the adjustments account for that.   

Its a lot more objective than that-- Ratings are based on measurements of conditions and obsaicals as set forth in comphrehensive manuels--Usually raters take the meaurements, rate the course and then may or may not play it.  Rating teams from around the US meet regularily at seminars to insure unifrom standards

[Jim Nugent]

Dennis, you're right, there are guidelines and formulas.  So I probably was wrong about that.  Actually, maybe the problem is that the formulas are too rigid.  Maybe that's why Oakmont from the tips does not have a slope of 155, and neither apparently did Torrey Pines under U.S. Open conditions.

An objective way would be to get a whole bunch of bogey golfers to play the course, and see what they score.  Course, you run into some chicken and egg issues there.  But I think those could be handled statistically. 

[Glenn Spencer]

Evan...... for scratch


Oak Tree, Wakonda , Olympic Lake, Butler and  Kiawah. I mention  Oak Tree because  of wild contour in many fairways and  the sternly guarded often small greens

For 18 hcp:

Grand Traverse ,
Pine Valley, and Cascades.


Golden Horseshoe  and  Firestone North....   lots of water on both

Wakonda is a decent one because you are probably going to be +2 after 1. I didn't think the rest of the golf course was THAT tough. Firestone North is damn hard.

I have to say The Honors. Bethpage and The Ocean in the rain were not as hard as The Honors with the sun out and the greens holding perfectly.

Professionals can handle it, but not many scratch or 18's play NCR very well.

[Glenn Spencer]

Purgatory in Noblesville, IN has a rating of 78.1 from the tips. Although the slope is only 142.

I had 74 there the first time I played it, The Honors, I might have broken 94.

[Glenn Spencer]

I've played Pinehurst #2 several hundred times from various tees and have shot par exactly once. I've never broken it. I've only played PV twice and I shot 78, 74 (including doubles on both par 5s). I could be wrong but I think if I played it a couple of hundred times I would shoot more than par once at PV.

Yes, with those stats, that would be an easy winner.

[Joe Bausch]

For the bogey golfer I'll throw in the Ocean Course.  Years ago I went down in March with 15 other players, the majority of which are bogey golfers, and only one of us broke 90.  And this was from the white tees!  Granted, we started with a nice 10 MPH breeze, which by the back nine was easily 25+. 

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