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Thomas MacWood

Re: Courses considered great with fewest bunkers...
« Reply #75 on: June 28, 2008, 07:56:31 PM »
TE
How does Jockey and Bayside fit into the theory?  I don't believe Jones was involved with those courses.

You don't think the economic realities of the Depression forced MacKenzie to shift from the greatest bunkerer of his era to the inventor of the new economical streamline method?

TEPaul

Re: Courses considered great with fewest bunkers...
« Reply #76 on: June 28, 2008, 09:50:02 PM »
"TE
How does Jockey and Bayside fit into the theory?  I don't believe Jones was involved with those courses."

Tom MacWood:

I have no idea, I don't know anything about Jockey or Bayside. Why don't you tell us something about them? Did Macdonald route them too without being given adequate credit? No, Jones only had to do with ANGC with Mackenzie, as far as I know.

"You don't think the economic realities of the Depression forced MacKenzie to shift from the greatest bunkerer of his era to the inventor of the new economical streamline method?"

The inventor of the new economical streamline method??  ::) What's that?

What I do believe is ANGC with its few bunkers was not done that way due to economics. I feel it was simply a most interesting philosophical change in approach in architecture for more reasons then just its few original bunkers.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2008, 09:51:51 PM by TEPaul »

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses considered great with fewest bunkers...
« Reply #77 on: June 28, 2008, 10:56:31 PM »
Seems to me things have gotten confused.

MacK's pitch about economy was not that less is cheaper. His pitch was not that people ought to build fewer bunkers, smaller greens, narrower mowed areas, and use less shaping.

His pitch was that better design up front will save you money in the long run. Ergo, hire me. You frequently hear the same pitch today. Indeed, it is now a marketing cliche.

I know of no passage by MacK where he states that fewer bunkers should be used because that will make things cheaper for the club. He gave very different reasons for minimizing bunkers. I think he came to those ideas by way of Behr, Simpson, Crane (as someone with a design theory he opposed) and, of course, by way of his own innate intelligence.

You don't build a course like ANGC with enormous mowed areas if you are worried much about saving money. You don't build gigantic greens if you are worried about economy. You don't design wild (wild is not meant metaphorically here) contouring in and around greens if you are worried much about saving a buck. You don't pipe creeks, reroute creeks, create ponds and lakes if a major design goal was to save money.

MacK's writings on the subject are quite clear. As for dates, no one, from John Maynard Keynes to your Uncle Ed had any idea in 1929 or 1930 of the depth and duration of the Depression that was to ensue.

Ron Whitten's theory of the design at ANGC commits the classic "whiggism" fallacy. Which is, because we know now (some 80 years later) how bad the Depression turned out, we project that knowledge to people as they were living its first years. Things were very bad in 1931. But Ron Whitten projects onto people alive in 1931 the knowledge we now have that things were going to get much, much worse and stay that way for a very long time. People at the time thought things would turn around, as they always had. Golf architecture didn't shift into survival mode until later.

Bob

     



   

Thomas MacWood

Re: Courses considered great with fewest bunkers...
« Reply #78 on: June 29, 2008, 12:11:21 AM »
Seems to me things have gotten confused.

MacK's pitch about economy was not that less is cheaper. His pitch was not that people ought to build fewer bunkers, smaller greens, narrower mowed areas, and use less shaping.

His pitch was that better design up front will save you money in the long run. Ergo, hire me. You frequently hear the same pitch today. Indeed, it is now a marketing cliche.

I know of no passage by MacK where he states that fewer bunkers should be used because that will make things cheaper for the club. He gave very different reasons for minimizing bunkers. I think he came to those ideas by way of Behr, Simpson, Crane (as someone with a design theory he opposed) and, of course, by way of his own innate intelligence.

You don't build a course like ANGC with enormous mowed areas if you are worried much about saving money. You don't build gigantic greens if you are worried about economy. You don't design wild (wild is not meant metaphorically here) contouring in and around greens if you are worried much about saving a buck. You don't pipe creeks, reroute creeks, create ponds and lakes if a major design goal was to save money.

MacK's writings on the subject are quite clear. As for dates, no one, from John Maynard Keynes to your Uncle Ed had any idea in 1929 or 1930 of the depth and duration of the Depression that was to ensue.

Ron Whitten's theory of the design at ANGC commits the classic "whiggism" fallacy. Which is, because we know now (some 80 years later) how bad the Depression turned out, we project that knowledge to people as they were living its first years. Things were very bad in 1931. But Ron Whitten projects onto people alive in 1931 the knowledge we now have that things were going to get much, much worse and stay that way for a very long time. People at the time thought things would turn around, as they always had. Golf architecture didn't shift into survival mode until later.

Bob


Bob
You're right about MacKenzie, he rarely mentioned cost savings through fewer bunkers. I only recall one such mention. Is that surprising considering his greatest designs (and the great majority of his designs) were loaded with bunkers?

Days after the stock market crash Ohio State suspended their project indefinitely. I suspect MacKenzie recieved similar notices from other clubs. Do you think that may have affected his thinking?
« Last Edit: June 29, 2008, 12:15:59 AM by Tom MacWood »

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Courses considered great with fewest bunkers...
« Reply #79 on: June 29, 2008, 12:13:47 AM »
Very nice post, Bob.  But how do you explain his writing circa 1920 about courses being overbunkered, then going off and building some of the most extravagantly bunkered courses extant, only to follow that by building several courses at the end of his career that apparently were minimally bunkered?

How do you square that circle? I'm assuming his California and Australia work was more heavily bunkered than what came before or after, but who was counting?

Mark

Thomas MacWood

Re: Courses considered great with fewest bunkers...
« Reply #80 on: June 29, 2008, 12:39:19 AM »
"TE
How does Jockey and Bayside fit into the theory?  I don't believe Jones was involved with those courses."

Tom MacWood:

I have no idea, I don't know anything about Jockey or Bayside. Why don't you tell us something about them? Did Macdonald route them too without being given adequate credit? No, Jones only had to do with ANGC with Mackenzie, as far as I know.

"You don't think the economic realities of the Depression forced MacKenzie to shift from the greatest bunkerer of his era to the inventor of the new economical streamline method?"

The inventor of the new economical streamline method??  ::) What's that?

What I do believe is ANGC with its few bunkers was not done that way due to economics. I feel it was simply a most interesting philosophical change in approach in architecture for more reasons then just its few original bunkers.

TE
Streamline? The Jockey Club constructed 36 holes in three weeks. Bayside took five weeks to build due to rainy weather. At Augusta, on a much more challenging site, construction began in February and they were actually mowing in June.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses considered great with fewest bunkers...
« Reply #81 on: June 29, 2008, 05:08:16 AM »
Sean
Interesting theories I just don't think the facts match the theories.

The placement of the bunkers is unMacKenzie-like IMO. MacKenzie was a fan of the fore bunker off the tee. The kind of bunker (or complex of bunkers) that looks very impressive, is often in the direct line of play or just off, but is usually cleared without much trouble. The maximize the golfer's thrills theory. Maxwell's plan has none of that.

I would disagree there is a California style. MacKenzie's style is very consistant in California, Australia and England. The men who built his California courses worked for him in the UK.

I haven't seen the most recent timeline, but I know it will be significantly different than one under IMO. Even so I'm not sure how you conclude someone was in a city without any direct evidence. I would think if he was in AA or Detroit there would be a record of it somewhere, and I haven't seen it.

Before they remodeled Michigan Hill's associate toured MacKenzie's California courses. There were two problems with that approach, 1) The course was design by Maxwell and built by his main man Dean Wood (I don't think either one of them had ever been to California), 2) Hills wasn't capable of replicating MacK's style even if it wasn't the correct style for UM.



Tommy Mac

UofM was and still is loaded with centreline bunkers that are both challenging to clear and relatively easy to clear.  Unfortunately trees are still an issue where some of these bunkers are concerned.  This is probably a direct result of Maxwell mucking with some of DR Mac's plan with the planting of loads of trees after the course was built.  When I refer to California style I am referring to the scale, not the shaping.  Many of UofM's bunkers are on a massive scale and it seems to me that more should be if the course was renovated with accuracy.  I believe Devries also thought this to be the case. 

How did Dr Mac get to Grand Rapids by train?  Are you suggesting the route from any southern direction wouldn't go through either Detroit/Dearborn or Ann Arbor?  I think you like to work on facts, but the simple truth is they are short on supply.  IMO it is much more reasonable to deduce that Dr Mac visited Ann Arbor then to say he didn't because you can't find ant evidence - I spose its just a different way at looking at things.  You try to find ways to dispell curent beliefs while I look for ways to make current beliefs viable.  I don't think there is much more to say on the subject.  You think Dr Mac had nothing to do with UofM and I believe he had direct design input.  The world isn't going to end either way. 

Finally, I am no fan of Hills, but to make blanket statements about his capabilities is rather silly.  Do you actually know that Hills is incapable or that he chooses a different aesthetic?

Ciao 
« Last Edit: June 29, 2008, 05:11:51 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

TEPaul

Re: Courses considered great with fewest bunkers...
« Reply #82 on: June 29, 2008, 07:40:58 AM »
"TE
Streamline? The Jockey Club constructed 36 holes in three weeks. Bayside took five weeks to build due to rainy weather. At Augusta, on a much more challenging site, construction began in February and they were actually mowing in June. "


Tom MacWood:

Oh yeah? So what? What is your point now, how quickly a course can be completed? They started building Merion West in March 1913 and seeded it in May, 1913. Generally that was a function of more manpower rather than less manpower and not necessarily of the amount of bunkers designed.  ;)

TEPaul

Re: Courses considered great with fewest bunkers...
« Reply #83 on: June 29, 2008, 08:39:44 AM »
"It is possible his involvement with AM may have given Maxwell's bunkering a little more irregularity..."


I certainly think so. In my opinion, Mackenzie's influence on Maxwell probably got Perry to use more cape and bay shapes in some of his bunkers than he may've done without Mackenzie's influence. There's an excellent example of that on one of the greenside bunkers of a hole Maxwell did at GMGC in the 1930s---a hole design that became something of a Maxwell prototype.

TEPaul

Re: Courses considered great with fewest bunkers...
« Reply #84 on: June 29, 2008, 08:46:30 AM »
Tom MacWood:

You used the following quotation in post #41. Whose remarks are they?



"And finally, while I don't think us moderns have anything to teach men like Behr or Mackenzie about theories of art in architecture, it does seem to me that our age is more concerned about or precious about bunker shapes and looks than the previous age was -- and so I've assumed that 'holding the look' of the bunkers and the costs associated with that goal weren't something the old ones had to deal with much. "


Personally, I think the entire subject of economics in architecture and maintenance both past and present probably needs its own thread. It's a far larger and more complex issue and subject than most on here probably realize or give it.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2008, 09:12:43 AM by TEPaul »

Thomas MacWood

Re: Courses considered great with fewest bunkers...
« Reply #85 on: June 29, 2008, 09:19:46 AM »
Sean
Maxwell's plan is loaded with centerline bunkers? Which holes?

The trees were Fielding Yost's idea. He was fond of trees.

If MacKenzie visited AA I'm sure someone will eventually find documentation of it.

Replicating MacKenzie ain't easy...there are plenty of failed examples and very few successes. Whatever the case he could have saved his client's money by sending his associate to Frankfort and Hutchinson instead of up and down the coast of California.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses considered great with fewest bunkers...
« Reply #86 on: June 29, 2008, 09:33:40 AM »
Sean
Maxwell's plan is loaded with centerline bunkers? Which holes?

The trees were Fielding Yost's idea. He was fond of trees.

If MacKenzie visited AA I'm sure someone will eventually find documentation of it.

Replicating MacKenzie ain't easy...there are plenty of failed examples and very few successes. Whatever the case he could have saved his client's money by sending his associate to Frankfort and Hutchinson instead of up and down the coast of California.

Tommy Mac

I know Yost directed trees to be planted, but somebody had to choose where.  Holes with centreline bunkers

#1 - no longer in existence probably because of practice area

#4 - no longer in existence

#6 - front greenside bunker

#9 - bunker no longer in existence - bunker moved toward the tee and trees blocking this angle to the green

#13 - still used

#16 - still used

#17 - still used

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

TEPaul

Re: Courses considered great with fewest bunkers...
« Reply #87 on: June 29, 2008, 09:41:41 AM »
“If MacKenzie visited AA I'm sure someone will eventually find documentation of it.”

Tom MacWood:

And if someone doesn’t, are you suggesting it is reasonable for anyone to automatically assume he didn’t?  ;)   As Sean Arble said below that’s a rather odd way of looking at things and it also seems to be your frequent way of looking at things. What if over the course of 75 years or more that evidence is just gone or lost? Shouldn’t that be a major consideration rather than to just assume the event could not have happened in the first place?  ;)



Sean Arble said:
“Are you suggesting the route from any southern direction wouldn't go through either Detroit/Dearborn or Ann Arbor?  I think you like to work on facts, but the simple truth is they are short on supply.  IMO it is much more reasonable to deduce that Dr Mac visited Ann Arbor then to say he didn't because you can't find ant evidence - I spose its just a different way at looking at things.  You try to find ways to dispell curent beliefs while I look for ways to make current beliefs viable.”

Thomas MacWood

Re: Courses considered great with fewest bunkers...
« Reply #88 on: June 29, 2008, 09:55:41 AM »
"TE
Streamline? The Jockey Club constructed 36 holes in three weeks. Bayside took five weeks to build due to rainy weather. At Augusta, on a much more challenging site, construction began in February and they were actually mowing in June. "


Tom MacWood:

Oh yeah? So what? What is your point now, how quickly a course can be completed? They started building Merion West in March 1913 and seeded it in May, 1913. Generally that was a function of more manpower rather than less manpower and not necessarily of the amount of bunkers designed.  ;)

TE
You're right the new streamlined construction methods utilized by MacKenzie & Miller during the Depression weren't really anything new, and probably weren't related to the design approach....or related to the economic situation for that matter. Sometimes I wonder where I get these crazy ideas.

Perhaps at this juncture you or Bob could breifly explain the MacKenzie, Behr, Jones theory...how this revolutionary design approach came to be, which ultimately resulted in ANGC.

In answer to your other question I'm not sure who made those remarks. I believe I was responding to a prior post.

Thomas MacWood

Re: Courses considered great with fewest bunkers...
« Reply #89 on: June 29, 2008, 10:05:36 AM »
Sean
Maxwell's plan is loaded with centerline bunkers? Which holes?

The trees were Fielding Yost's idea. He was fond of trees.

If MacKenzie visited AA I'm sure someone will eventually find documentation of it.

Replicating MacKenzie ain't easy...there are plenty of failed examples and very few successes. Whatever the case he could have saved his client's money by sending his associate to Frankfort and Hutchinson instead of up and down the coast of California.

Tommy Mac

I know Yost directed trees to be planted, but somebody had to choose where.  Holes with centreline bunkers

#1 - no longer in existence probably because of practice area

#4 - no longer in existence

#6 - front greenside bunker

#9 - bunker no longer in existence - bunker moved toward the tee and trees blocking this angle to the green

#13 - still used

#16 - still used

#17 - still used

Ciao

Sean
I don't see any centerlines on Maxwell's plan and you see seven. I think we've reached an impasse.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2008, 10:09:48 AM by Tom MacWood »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses considered great with fewest bunkers...
« Reply #90 on: June 29, 2008, 10:14:42 AM »
Sean
Maxwell's plan is loaded with centerline bunkers? Which holes?

The trees were Fielding Yost's idea. He was fond of trees.

If MacKenzie visited AA I'm sure someone will eventually find documentation of it.

Replicating MacKenzie ain't easy...there are plenty of failed examples and very few successes. Whatever the case he could have saved his client's money by sending his associate to Frankfort and Hutchinson instead of up and down the coast of California.

Tommy Mac

I know Yost directed trees to be planted, but somebody had to choose where.  Holes with centreline bunkers

#1 - no longer in existence probably because of practice area

#4 - no longer in existence

#6 - front greenside bunker

#9 - bunker no longer in existence - bunker moved toward the tee and trees blocking this angle to the green

#13 - still used

#16 - still used

#17 - still used

Ciao

Sean
I don't see any centerlines on Maxwell's plan and you see seven. I think we've reached an impasse.

Tommy Mac

The impasse was reached a few posts ago.  No worries.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Thomas MacWood

Re: Courses considered great with fewest bunkers...
« Reply #91 on: June 29, 2008, 10:18:04 AM »
“If MacKenzie visited AA I'm sure someone will eventually find documentation of it.”

Tom MacWood:

And if someone doesn’t, are you suggesting it is reasonable for anyone to automatically assume he didn’t?  ;)   As Sean Arble said below that’s a rather odd way of looking at things and it also seems to be your frequent way of looking at things. What if over the course of 75 years or more that evidence is just gone or lost? Shouldn’t that be a major consideration rather than to just assume the event could not have happened in the first place?  ;)



Sean Arble said:
“Are you suggesting the route from any southern direction wouldn't go through either Detroit/Dearborn or Ann Arbor?  I think you like to work on facts, but the simple truth is they are short on supply.  IMO it is much more reasonable to deduce that Dr Mac visited Ann Arbor then to say he didn't because you can't find ant evidence - I spose its just a different way at looking at things.  You try to find ways to dispell curent beliefs while I look for ways to make current beliefs viable.”


TE
Unlike clubs which are prone to clubhouse fires and crazy legends, universities usually keep very good records...but as an Ohio State alum I'm willing to accept the possibility that Michigan maybe the exception.

TEPaul

Re: Courses considered great with fewest bunkers...
« Reply #92 on: June 29, 2008, 10:20:21 AM »
"In answer to your other question I'm not sure who made those remarks. I believe I was responding to a prior post."


Tom MacWood:

It doesn't really matter. I asked simply because I think it's a very good and very realistic remark.


"Perhaps at this juncture you or Bob could breifly explain the MacKenzie, Behr, Jones theory...how this revolutionary design approach came to be, which ultimately resulted in ANGC."

I guess we could but it's a rather complex and interrelated history and evolution perhaps even emanating out of that remarkable on-going debate Mackenzie/Behr and perhaps even Jones indirectly had with Joshua Crane and the ideas he promoted they obviously disagreed with. The fact is it probably can't be BRIEFLY explained that well and that's probably one of the reasons we've been analyzing and considering some of this stuff for some years now.

Also the fact is the back pages and back threads are filled with discussions of and on it.

But for you to even begin to understand it the thing you need to do is read very carefully Max Behr's entire series of articles. They mention Mackenzie and Jones and what they too were thinking about various of these aspects. I don't believe there is anything else that comes remotely close to explaining all this other than Behr's entire series of articles. The fact is they are all interrelated to an over all theme which this architectural concept and expression just might be the very best actual architectural evidence of!

If you don't have that entire series of articles perhaps you could ask Geoff Shackelford to supply them to you. That's what he did for me about ten years ago, although I did have a few of those articles before that because they are printed in various periodicals we all have access to today. But to make it all make sense I strongly believe one needs to carefully read and consider them in their entirety.

The fact is if you want to understand what Bob Crosby and I are talking about with their seemingly revolutionary new ideas on architecture and how that may've been evidenced best in the original concpetion of ANGC that is probably what you'll need to do first.


TEPaul

Re: Courses considered great with fewest bunkers...
« Reply #93 on: June 29, 2008, 10:30:01 AM »
"TE
Unlike clubs which are prone to clubhouse fires and crazy legends, universities usually keep very good records...but as an Ohio State alum I'm willing to accept the possibility that Michigan maybe the exception."


Tom MacWood:

If one does this kind of research as long and in as many places as some of us have tried to one finds that historical evidence and documentation is pretty much a real hit and miss affair.

Universities certainly are prone to keeping and preserving a good stream and flow of records and so are museums (Bob and I found the entire run of the London Field in the Museum of Natural History in New York of all places. When we asked the curator why the New York's Natural History Museum happened to have the entire run of that magazine he said because they began subscribing to it in the beginning in the 19th century and just never stopped) but other types of entities just aren't that good at both keeping comprehensive records or perserving them.

The other sort of ironic thing I've found is that clubs that had very wealthy and powerful principals are more prone to both comprehensive records and minutes and also more prone to preserving them. I guess if one thinks about that for a while the reasons are quite obvious!  ;)

While, on the other hand a club like NGLA both gave away most of Macdonald's records on the course after they essentially minimized his roll in the club and then fired his super after Macdonald died and the club actually threw out a lot of their old historic material in the late 1950s.

Even Donald Ross apparently mandated that on his death many of his own records be burned. Mrs. Flynn gave away all her husband's business records and gave his entire career drawings inventory to another architect when Flynn died and that's how they ended up in a barn in Bucks Co. for about the next half century!

But because some of these things are lost to us at this point and perhaps gone forever most definitely does not and should not ever mean some of the things they chronicled never happened in the first place!!  ;)  ::)

However, there is no question that once some things and some events get into the realm of "oral history" things can certainly get a lot more tricky. The events behind the story of Wilson's 1910 trip abroad is probably one of the best examples extant. The fact that even understanding the truth of it isn't that hard to do it really is hard for some to get it out of their minds properly to understand what really did happen back then and how! It is just amazing to me how hard it becomes for some to get it out of their minds when they create assumptions and premises, and on both sides of the ledger! ;)
« Last Edit: June 29, 2008, 10:43:10 AM by TEPaul »

Peter Pallotta

Re: Courses considered great with fewest bunkers...
« Reply #94 on: June 29, 2008, 11:00:21 AM »
"And finally, while I don't think us moderns have anything to teach men like Behr or Mackenzie about theories of art in architecture, it does seem to me that our age is more concerned about or precious about bunker shapes and looks than the previous age was -- and so I've assumed that 'holding the look' of the bunkers and the costs associated with that goal weren't something the old ones had to deal with much. "


TE - well, since you think it a good and realistic remark, I'll take credit for it.

I was trying to grapple with the bunkers-costs question in the only way I can. I followed-up by suggesting  that, while many of the old greats knew all about art in architecture, it seems to me that the number and extent of golf course restorations (including bunker restorations) over the last couple of decades suggests that earlier generations of golf clubs/golf club membership may not have shared the same level or quality of interest in the subject.

In light of a few recent threads (e.g. Mike C's and Melvyn's), I find this important in the context of "expectations", and what that means for golf in general and golf course design in particular.  Is it to be judged (and judged succesful) by the high-water marks, i.e. the examples of the finest possible architecture regardless of cost, or is it to be better appreciated in its more utilitarian and functional aspects? The purist in me says the former, the populist the latter.

A "hyper-naturalism" in golf course architecture is what I'm interested in thinking about and discusing because it seems to hold the promise of bridging that divide, i.e. of satisfying both the purist and the populist.

Peter   

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Courses considered great with fewest bunkers...
« Reply #95 on: June 29, 2008, 11:01:16 AM »
Tom Paul and Bob

Have you documented the first instances where Behr, MacKenzie, and Crane expressed an idea?  This intellectual timeline would be a very valuable product of your efforts and useful in documenting these giants' lives of ideas.

For example, Behr's concept of permanance vs. MacKenzie's idea of finality: are these the same, where do they overlap -- and who wrote what when?

A second example:
When did Behr write of "lines of charm"?
MacKenzie in "Golf Architecture":
Quote
It is an interesting fact that few hazards are of any interest which are out of what is known among medical men as the direct field of vision.  This does not extend much farther than ten to twenty yards on either side of the direct line to the hole.  Hazards placed outside this limit are usually of little interest, but simply act as a source of irritation.

A third example:
Bunker minimalism -- MacKenzie in "Golf Architecture":
"...illustrating the value of one bunker...Any additional bunker for the tee shot or across the approach to the green would materially lesson the interest of the hole.  The moral is, 'Few bunkers placed in interesting positions !' "

"Golf Architecture" is 1920, but it seems good chunks of it, particularly passages relating to "economy," may actually be transcripts from those two lectures he gave in the early 1910s -- not sure if any of the above fits.

If they did, the ideas would predate MacKenzie's meeting Behr, yes?

Mark

PS Tom MacW, this is a discussion board not a court of final arbitration. Its purpose to explore ideas -- conjectures (labeled as such) vy helpful!

Peter Pallotta

Re: Courses considered great with fewest bunkers...
« Reply #96 on: June 29, 2008, 11:09:49 AM »
Oh - and now that I'm speculating, I'll keep going:

What will most likely prevent a kind of "hyper-naturalism" from bridging the purist-populist divide?

The "game mind of man".

Hats off, once again, to Max Behr. In my opinion and way of thinking, the only true genius that golf course architecture has ever had.

By the way, while probably impossible to write (because of the limits of the historical record and the personal nature of the subject), I'd love to see an essay about the philosophical/spiritual beliefs of men like Behr and Crane -- for the very reason that these are personal and private and (perhaps) deeply held beliefs, I imagine they had much more influence on what architects were doing and writing about than has been yet explored.   

Peter
« Last Edit: June 29, 2008, 11:17:59 AM by Peter Pallotta »

TEPaul

Re: Courses considered great with fewest bunkers...
« Reply #97 on: June 29, 2008, 11:53:42 AM »
MarkB:

Your post #95 is really good, really good. You include a number of specific points that really can be and need to be addressed. It's pretty involved though, and hopefully Bob Crosby will weigh in on them too. I'm just sorry Geoff Shackelford doesn't particpate more on here as I'd love to see his take too as a years long and very dedicated student of Behr and his writing.




"The "game mind of man".

Hats off, once again, to Max Behr. In my opinion and way of thinking, the only true genius that golf course architecture has ever had."


I certainly think he was albeit it not the only one from that time. He does seem to be the one who wrote most comprehensively about these things that tend towards the philosophical, and he probably did it more and in more depth by a factor of at least ten compared to anyone else.

When you study and consider a guy like that and some of his like-minded fellow travelers, it's not just a matter of understanding what they were saying but also it's in the trying to figure out as exactly why they were coming at all this with the opinions they had the way the did.

But with all of them, including Crane, they were big thinkers on the subject, sort of global and fundamental thinkers and they were men with some very strong opinions on the way certain things should be and why.

Thomas MacWood

Re: Courses considered great with fewest bunkers...
« Reply #98 on: June 29, 2008, 01:48:46 PM »
"TE
Unlike clubs which are prone to clubhouse fires and crazy legends, universities usually keep very good records...but as an Ohio State alum I'm willing to accept the possibility that Michigan maybe the exception."


Tom MacWood:

If one does this kind of research as long and in as many places as some of us have tried to one finds that historical evidence and documentation is pretty much a real hit and miss affair.

Universities certainly are prone to keeping and preserving a good stream and flow of records and so are museums (Bob and I found the entire run of the London Field in the Museum of Natural History in New York of all places. When we asked the curator why the New York's Natural History Museum happened to have the entire run of that magazine he said because they began subscribing to it in the beginning in the 19th century and just never stopped) but other types of entities just aren't that good at both keeping comprehensive records or perserving them.

The other sort of ironic thing I've found is that clubs that had very wealthy and powerful principals are more prone to both comprehensive records and minutes and also more prone to preserving them. I guess if one thinks about that for a while the reasons are quite obvious!  ;)

While, on the other hand a club like NGLA both gave away most of Macdonald's records on the course after they essentially minimized his roll in the club and then fired his super after Macdonald died and the club actually threw out a lot of their old historic material in the late 1950s.

Even Donald Ross apparently mandated that on his death many of his own records be burned. Mrs. Flynn gave away all her husband's business records and gave his entire career drawings inventory to another architect when Flynn died and that's how they ended up in a barn in Bucks Co. for about the next half century!

But because some of these things are lost to us at this point and perhaps gone forever most definitely does not and should not ever mean some of the things they chronicled never happened in the first place!!  ;)  ::)

However, there is no question that once some things and some events get into the realm of "oral history" things can certainly get a lot more tricky. The events behind the story of Wilson's 1910 trip abroad is probably one of the best examples extant. The fact that even understanding the truth of it isn't that hard to do it really is hard for some to get it out of their minds properly to understand what really did happen back then and how! It is just amazing to me how hard it becomes for some to get it out of their minds when they create assumptions and premises, and on both sides of the ledger! ;)

TE
It sounds like you have a real appreciation for research.

Thomas MacWood

Re: Courses considered great with fewest bunkers...
« Reply #99 on: June 29, 2008, 02:02:29 PM »

PS Tom MacW, this is a discussion board not a court of final arbitration. Its purpose to explore ideas -- conjectures (labeled as such) vy helpful!


Mark
You obviously haven't been on this site for very long. GCA is a court of final arbitration.

But on the other hand I don't want be accused of stiffling creativity...please carry on.

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