News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Castle Course...
« Reply #25 on: July 01, 2008, 07:49:13 AM »
If Kidd hadn't pushed a lot of earth around and spent a lot of money, we'd have got a longer version of the Balgove course, up on a cliff.
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Castle Course...
« Reply #26 on: July 01, 2008, 07:59:48 AM »
Brian

£4million for a course that should never have been built
on that land is £4millon too much IMHO.

The Castle Course site had to be totally destroyed before the
course could be designed and constructed. Sorry have not been
able to download original photo of the farmland circa 1990’s

Again your comments re TOC is, well, lets just say that’s your
opinion.

Dunes are not far from the seaward side of TOC along most of
the length of the West Sands. When I was young I played in the
dunes, swam in the sea and searched for golf balls on the three
courses. Tinkering – I like that, perhaps that’s the answer, stop
theses complicated designs and seek good locations (worldwide)
then start tinkering. TOC is special to the Morris, Hunter, Rusack
and Morrow family, yet it suffered from incorrect and poor green
keeping between 1908 and the First World War – down to poor
tinkering perhaps?

I agree with your view of the location of the dunes but are they not located along the Jubilee course?

I would not agree with your wording 'destroyed', 'changed' for different use of land is the word I would use.  They have created a world class golf course on a not so great site but located in a near perfect demand area.

Well done to David Kidd, Paul Kimber and the Links Trust.  I agree with Paul Turner and think it is fantastic that David and Paul have designed something that not everyone agrees with.

The 'spill offs' are fine, maybe slightly overdone.  If they took out say 20% of them it would not degrade the quality of the design but possibly improve playability. 

The greens are superb, possibly some of the most fun I have ever had chipping and putting on a golf course in the last ten years.

The drives are not really blind just confusing as some parts of the fairways are hidden, however there is so much room out there that it should not be a problem if people play off the correct tees.  The only real blind drive is the 6th hole but again lots of room there as well.
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Castle Course...
« Reply #27 on: July 01, 2008, 08:27:21 AM »
I like that, perhaps that’s the answer, stop
theses complicated designs and seek good locations (worldwide)
then start tinkering.


Melvyn, it is these "good locations" that cannot be obtained because the vast majority of the planet sees the development of them as an abhorrence...

In other words, tinkering on good duneland is far more controversial than mass movement of earth on plain arable land...

Chris Moore

Re: The Castle Course...
« Reply #28 on: July 01, 2008, 08:28:51 AM »
Sorry, Brian, on that latter point there was no physical build up at the Old Course of those mounds, green sites and outlooks through labor - other than leveling areas for tees.
I don't agree and neither does Rich Goodale.... ;)

I was under the impression that the Valley of Sin was the work of man's hand.  Surely that is not the only place on TOC that there was some digging/shaping done. 

Tom Dunne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Castle Course...
« Reply #29 on: July 01, 2008, 08:43:49 AM »
I played the Castle last week and have been tracking the comments and opinions on the course with great interest--something that I'm sure will be a prime spectator sport for months to come. The thing that is fascinating to me is that I find myself agreeing in turn with both the boosters and the detractors--contrary to Tony Muldoon's gratuitous comment, there have been well-reasoned arguments on both sides. Those who haven't played it might think this is a simple thumbs up/thumbs down issue, as it is with most new courses, but in this case it's really not.

What's certain is that David Kidd hasn't produced a ho-hum golf course. This is an extreme design, as Scott Macpherson points out, a total blitz of dramatic moments and wild, over-the-top features. Some of these "special effects" work, others don't, but I applaud Kidd and his team for their audacity.

One of the points of contention has been the presence of what Tait called the "Don Kings"--the heavily grassed banks in the fairways. Some have been critical of his "splitting the fairway" comment, but the problem is that in places there really are so many of them (I thought of them as "buried Fiats", for their weirdly trapezoidal shaping) that it's more a matter of hit and hope than of cleverly selecting a line that might not be straight down the middle. Some of them are blind from the tee, and at times the overall effect is visually incoherent. The hard edges of the slopes and the heavy grasses lead as often as not to a lost ball--it's one thing to say the golfer "deserves" a clean lie when he has driven it 260 yards down the middle (he doesn't), but quite another to say he deserves the long walk back to the tee.

That said, I think the Castle Course easily passes the "fun and interesting" test, and I believe it will be a success for the Links Trust. It is such a different experience from everything else  in St. Andrews, in a good way. My hope, however, is that David Kidd does not view the course as "finished" for quite some time. The Castle Course needs an edit. There are so many bold features that I have to think it would be impossible to really know how they will all function together until Bill from Harrisburg puts his peg in the ground. The routing is excellent, the basic ideas behind the holes are sound, and there's an adventurous spirit to the place that is really appealing. It's just a matter of identifying which elements truly add to the playing value of the golf hole and which are unnecessary nuisances. I'm sure that's easier said than done, and all too easy for an armchair observer like me to say, but I'd contend that it's probably a far better position to be in to tinker with a thrilling golf course than to hunt for ways to add excitement to something dull.

Finally, I'd encourage everyone on this board to take the opportunity to see or play the Castle.   It isn't just the seventh course at St. Andrews, it's a significant statement in modern golf architecture. No matter where one ultimately falls on the spectrum of opinion, it is nothing if not thought-provoking.       

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Castle Course...
« Reply #30 on: July 01, 2008, 08:49:11 AM »
Tom,

I think that sums it up pretty perfectly!
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Melvyn Morrow

Re: The Castle Course...
« Reply #31 on: July 01, 2008, 10:11:44 AM »
I make no comment on the design of the course just that it should not have been built on that site – the end result is not in keeping with its surroundings.

The reason I use the word destroy is that the land is no longer fit for anything but perhaps golf. It has been totally changed, rape and the guts ripped out of it. If this level of destruction was carried out in any of our towns all hell would break loose. Its not the way forward – OK it may turn out to be a good course but not at the cost of destroying the original land in the first place. I believe it’s even more important to seek the correct site in the first place.  Are we trying to alienate the no golfing public and those set against building in the country and green belt areas?

I accept I am in the minority, but that does not stop me having an opinion.

Brian, yes the TOC is the third from the coast, so we found a lot of golf balls before retreating back to the big dunes to count them on our morning raids. Looking back I sometimes wonder if we ever lifted a ball that was still in play - boys will be boys.


Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Castle Course...
« Reply #32 on: July 01, 2008, 11:57:20 AM »
I suspect far more wildlife will flourish in Kidd's faux dunes than in the fields that predated them.
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Gary Slatter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Castle Course...
« Reply #33 on: July 01, 2008, 12:01:36 PM »
John Huggan is just a bomb thrower when it comes to golf course reviews...

Can't wait to see this course, Kidd looks to have taken some risks and it's about time someone, in the UK, built some links style traps that aren't straight faced revetted.  The photos look fantastic.

the bunkers are the best part of the Castle Course!  the real hazards are the Poulter things in the middle of the fairways.  I've walked it four times (twice with clubs), next round is tomorrow for the Grqand Opening.
Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Castle Course...
« Reply #34 on: July 01, 2008, 12:13:25 PM »
Why is it that the Castle Course seems so controversial while a similar project, Kingsbarns, seems to be very well-received?  Is it because the Links Trust is involved in one and not the other?  Is it because the landforms created by Kidd are more wild and dramatic than the ones shaped by Philips and Parsinen?  Or, is it just that the Castle Course is newer?

Gary Slatter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Castle Course...
« Reply #35 on: July 01, 2008, 02:40:18 PM »
Why is it that the Castle Course seems so controversial while a similar project, Kingsbarns, seems to be very well-received?  Is it because the Links Trust is involved in one and not the other?  Is it because the landforms created by Kidd are more wild and dramatic than the ones shaped by Philips and Parsinen?  Or, is it just that the Castle Course is newer?
Right on all points.  However, Kingsbarns has terrible greens right now.   The Castle Course is more wild and dramatic (and unfair) and controversial, and the new kidd on the rota.  They both have created contrived landforms, although the Castle has a few strange giant cow-shit-type forms in the strangest places. I know golf can be unfair, now we can say "you are castled" meaning tough break, again. 
IMHO the Links Trust and Kingsbarns both have their critics altho the Links seems to have a monopoly on the local opinons, lot of "experts" in the local links ticket holder ranks. 
Both courses are worth playing, one is a local "charity" and the other is a private course with US connections.  Both are market priced.
Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Castle Course...
« Reply #36 on: July 01, 2008, 03:19:07 PM »
Tim,

Really great question as I was wondering the same thing.

Melyvn do you despise KingBarns just as much as CC because its completely man-made and not what mother nature had put there?

In the spirit of naturalism, if you can do this amount of earth moving, and make it look natural, isn't this preferrable over a flat piece of land that turns into just another ordinary course?

Mitchell Schneringer

Re: The Castle Course...
« Reply #37 on: July 01, 2008, 04:39:26 PM »
I've planned what I feel a great trip to Scotland upcoming in late July-early August, but I have not planned a time for Kingsbarns.  Am I really missing the boat here?  Courses booked are as follows, and in order:
-Royal Aberdeen
-Cruden Bay
-Murcar
-Carnoustie
-St. Andrews Castle Course
-New Course
-Old Course
-West Links at North Berwick
-Muirfield

Let me know your thoughts.

Daryl David

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Castle Course...
« Reply #38 on: July 01, 2008, 04:44:16 PM »
It is a great trip, but you are missing the boat on Kingsbarns.  Add a day and do 36 at KB.  You will not regret it.

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Castle Course...
« Reply #39 on: July 01, 2008, 04:44:46 PM »
I've planned what I feel a great trip to Scotland upcoming in late July-early August, but I have not planned a time for Kingsbarns.  Am I really missing the boat here?  Courses booked are as follows, and in order:
-Royal Aberdeen
-Cruden Bay
-Murcar
-Carnoustie
-St. Andrews Castle Course
-New Course
-Old Course
-West Links at North Berwick
-Muirfield

Let me know your thoughts.

You will have a terrific trip.  

I would not book any more golf and just think about adding on if you feel like playing an extra round on a particular day.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: The Castle Course...
« Reply #40 on: July 01, 2008, 04:54:10 PM »
Kalen

I do not despise Kingsbarns, I have made no comment about Kingsbarns. I do not have a problem with The Links Trust or private clubs. Being older or newer makes not one bit of difference.

I know the site, the land, my dead younger sister and I played on the fields further from St Andrews in our youth. My sister was christened at the small church in the middle of the fields. The land was simply not suitable for golf - nothing sinister, just a plain statement of fact.

To make the course the areas has had to be terra-formed, it will never be able to return to its original purpose of raising crops because of the destruction required to make it into something it never was – a links golf course.

No malice, no anti-establishment rant just my plain old opinion that the site should never have been considered, let alone chosen to install a golf course.

If this land can be butchered beyond recognition for golf so can other areas around the world, hence my comment regards Land Fit for Purpose.


Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Castle Course...
« Reply #41 on: July 01, 2008, 05:03:13 PM »
Melvyn,

I think you make some good arguments. To help me understand exactly where you are coming from could you please tell me a site that was correctly used for golf.  Just give me some examples.

The golf course can quite easily be put back to farmland, in fact it could be done within a month with the correct equipment.

Brian
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Patrick Glynn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Castle Course...
« Reply #42 on: July 01, 2008, 05:11:39 PM »
Melvyn... I do appreciate your posts on here and yours is obviously an interesting history. However I feel you have been ridiculously negative & biased against The Castle Course from the get go. In all fairness, what does your "dead sister" have to do with anything? For a fact, back in the 1880s, in Lahinch, the ground where the course is laid out could have been some long lost siblings favorite playground - does it matter? You are fudging the issue by trying to emotionally charge it. I also find your use of language to be downright insulting to DMK & The Links Trust.

And I quote:
"The Castle Course site had to be totally destroyed before the course could be designed and constructed." - Destroyed? Altered yes. But you choose to use an inherently negative word, that immediately associates all manner of past atrocities with it. Unfairly I might add. The land is unfit for any other use? As opposed to ALL links land on the great golf courses of GB & I being selected precisely because it was unfit for any other use? Or maybe you are bemoaning the loss of this wonderful arable farm land? 

Get your priorities straight.  I think you are too close to the issue, and you need to take a step back and maybe refrain from posting in further threads on the Castle...

Just my opinion,

Respectfully,

Patrick

Melvyn Morrow

Re: The Castle Course...
« Reply #43 on: July 01, 2008, 06:31:48 PM »
Brian

How much and who would pay to restore the course to farm land? Could be done in a month, do you think it would ever happen? Sorry Brian but that is a ridicules statement to make.

Most of the pre 1900 courses could be used as examples. To me, Golf is and always has been about working with Nature. That’s part of the delight of walking the fairways and enjoying not only the course but the surrounding land that is in tune with the course.

Not today! It’s all about money, testosterone, money, distance shots, testosterone, money, long courses and did I say money. The Magic and Spirit of the game is being buried under the fairways of places like the Castle Course at St Andrews.

Twenty years from now Golf will become another throw-away American commodity but I will not worry as I will have been launched into the North Sea on my burning Viking Longboat clutching my faithful 5 Iron (by Tom Morris of St Andrews circa 1888) on my way to Golfhalla (some believe it to be at Askernish), where Nature has created only natural Links courses. Friends will give a final farewell on the shore by hitting their Gutta Percha’s using Bulger-headed drivers toward the Longboat. PS the boat will not be made from renewable resources and it will have one heck of a carbon footprint.

Brian – I trust all is now crystal clear and you have no more questions.


Patrick Glynn – My, what have I done to you?

My sister (who is no longer alive) & I played and know the area from our youth simple statement of fact explaining I know the region and in particular this land.

“I also find your use of language to be downright insulting to DMK & The Links Trust”.  I have made it very clear I have no problem with the Links Trust or DMK, I just don’t thing the site was a suitable place for a golf course.

Yes destroyed, you call it altered, but I believe it has been destroyed. Negative – No Not Negative, I just don’t thing the site was a suitable place
for a golf course.

Patrick let me be very clear, knowing the area, the land, the site - it is MHO
that the site was not a suitable place to build a golf course. What‘s ridicules is that a course was built on this site in the first place.

Too Close, get my priorities straight. Take it you know the site and the new course intimately, walked the area before the course was constructed and returned recently and seen the finished product?

What does Golf mean to you? 


James Bennett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Castle Course...
« Reply #44 on: July 01, 2008, 11:58:57 PM »
This quote from Huggan makes me laugh:

"Whatever, these mysterious affectations – for they appear to have no immediately discernible architectural or strategic purpose – are intensely irritating. While golf, as someone once said, is a game never meant to be fair, searching for one's ball after striping one up the middle very quickly gets old."

Since when is "striping one up the middle..." the correct line.  I did not lose one ball apart from over the cliffs on hole 9 .



Brian

I suspect you didn't 'lose' a ball on 9.  You knew where it was, so it was not 'lost'.  It was just irretrievable.

James B
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Castle Course...
« Reply #45 on: July 02, 2008, 01:50:52 AM »
Mitchell,

Stick! 

I recently returned from the States playing 10 rounds in 10 days with some travel mixed in, I found myself getting tired playing top 100 courses and really having to work on enjoying the experience. Don't risk finding yourself in the same boat by squeezing in more golf, especially as the cream is towards the end.

If you really, really find yourself desiring an extra round somewhere seek out a local small town course and join the locals for a round.

Chappers
Cave Nil Vino

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Castle Course...
« Reply #46 on: July 02, 2008, 04:13:56 AM »
Melvyn,

If the land the Castle Course was built on was unsuitable and should not have been used, where should the Links Trust have built course number 7?  Where, around St Andrews, is there a piece of land suitable (and available) for building a golf course?
« Last Edit: July 02, 2008, 05:45:41 AM by Mark Pearce »
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Castle Course...
« Reply #47 on: July 02, 2008, 04:28:51 AM »
Melvyn,

If the land the Castle Course was built on was unsuitable and should not have been used, where should the Links Trust have built vourse number 7?  Where, around St Andrews, is there a piece of land suitable (and available) for building a golf course?

Mark

Maybe this hits to the heart of the question.  Is there a need for 7 courses owned by the Council?  Should St Andrews be expanding because of golf/tourism?  At what point is enough enough?  I think they are well past that point and its a great pity that the home of golf has been turned into a Disney World.

For the record, I haven't seen the new course and have no opinion on its quality or lack thereof.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Melvyn Morrow

Re: The Castle Course...
« Reply #48 on: July 02, 2008, 06:22:33 AM »
Mark

You accused me in an IM last month of not reading comments correctly. This post of mine was I though very clear in that I do not agree with the site of this course. Plus I gave my reasons which one or two readers did not consider relevant.

It does not mean that I have considered alternative sites, which, for your information I have not.

Does St Andrews need an overspill course, well that's the business of The
St Andrews Links Trust who I have total faith in. The have for nearly 40 years done a fair job in looking after the courses at St Andrews

The point of my ongoing concerns on this site (which – correct me if I am wrong - is apparently about all aspects of Golf Course Architecture), is the selection and locations of new courses. I feel it is a fair point, when we see what golfers have to put up with on some courses i.e. long distances between Flags and Tees, No Walking Courses (for whatever reason). This has an effect on golf and is actually taking it away from the original game and the reason why most of the over 50’s on this site started playing the game in the first place.

I don’t blame the Architects. They are given the raw product and asked to achieve miracles. Thankfully there are many talented Designers out there
who have produced some rather interesting courses and modifications.

I hope I have fully understood your question and have answered it to your satisfaction. Feel free to IM me if you feel I have missed the point.


Thomas MacWood

Re: The Castle Course...
« Reply #49 on: July 02, 2008, 06:46:46 AM »
Melvyn
How does the site for The Castle course compare with the site for King James VI?

Being on a flat featureless island within the River Perth I would think there were many challenges with the KJ VI site as well, including flooding.

Pro or con?
« Last Edit: July 02, 2008, 06:48:48 AM by Tom MacWood »

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back