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Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
The Castle Course...
« on: June 24, 2008, 10:47:54 AM »
I was lucky enough to play the course on Sunday together with Paul Kimber and a couple of friends.  Graeme Webster my business partner played it on Thursday last week in near 40 mph (38 mph recorded).

Both of us are so impressed with it we would put it at the top of our list of the course to play if asked to play one course in Britain.

Greens are absolutely superb and really fun to play.  Graeme had no problem playing them in the 30 mph winds and they were stimping around 8.5. 

The driving angles are really well thought out and rewarding. 

I will try to report more about the course this week and hopefully post some photos.  This place will be packed next year.

Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Mark Buzminski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Castle Course...
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2008, 01:38:48 PM »
Is it not particularly busy at the moment?

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Castle Course...
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2008, 03:05:16 PM »
Mark,

It opens on the 28th of this month.
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Castle Course...
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2008, 04:20:49 PM »
I asked my caddie at the Old Course last week if any of the regulars were planning to caddie at the Castle Course, and he said, "No, they'll need f**cking Sherpas for that!"

So I guess it's pretty hilly?  ??? ;D
« Last Edit: June 24, 2008, 08:51:47 PM by Bill_McBride »

Mark Smolens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Castle Course...
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2008, 07:26:33 PM »
Alistair Tait has a far less glowing review now posted on Golfweek's website.  Guess I'll just have to win the Mega Millions tonite so I can fly over and see for myself. . .

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Castle Course...
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2008, 12:55:35 AM »
I was lucky enough to play the course on Sunday together with Paul Kimber and a couple of friends.  Graeme Webster my business partner played it on Thursday last week in near 40 mph (38 mph recorded).

Both of us are so impressed with it we would put it at the top of our list of the course to play if asked to play one course in Britain.

Greens are absolutely superb and really fun to play.  Graeme had no problem playing them in the 30 mph winds and they were stimping around 8.5. 

The driving angles are really well thought out and rewarding. 

I will try to report more about the course this week and hopefully post some photos.  This place will be packed next year.



Brian, I can't think of a course which has attracted so much negative commentary before opening. Journalists are like sheep and it's going to take some weather change to reverse the tide here (sic).  Hurrah for diversity of opinion. I look forward to a report with photo's.
Let's make GCA grate again!

Scott Macpherson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Castle Course...
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2008, 04:38:55 AM »
I am one of the lucky few to have the chance to play this interesting, spectacular and polarising golf course.

My initial impressions after only one round in a 20-30mph prevailing breeze are that it will be a course that divides opinions. It has a good routing and has been grown in very well. The course looked wonderful with its ragged bunkers, organic shaped tees and big undulating greens and fairways. But it is these same undulating greens and fairways that will deter some players from really embracing this extreme design.

It is the skill of the architect to balance the relationship between skill and luck. Luck is an important component of golf, as is skill. Strong vertical movement in the fairways is fine if there is sufficient flattish area where a more skilful golfer might hit their ball to get a more predictable bounce of lie. In general, these areas exist at The Castle course. On many greens however, there is less area where a golfer might hope to land there ball and receive some agreeable type of bounce.

The fairways, are in most cases, of a generous and necessary width considering the strength of the wind on this site. It may be expected however that many of the rough grass outcrops that are scattered throughout the fairways- some of which are hidden, will be mown out over time and this will improve the experience for most golfers.

For me the Old Course and Muirfield have the best relationship between luck and skill. The more skillful golfer can dull the impact of luck on their round by negotiating their way around, over and between hazards. At the Castle course, luck has a considerable impact on the golfers round. Too much impact? That is for each golfer to decide. The Pros may think so, the low handicapper may not, the high handicaper may not notice the difference.

The Castle course is a triumph in many ways. Now the course is about to open, all the pundits views will give way to the only opinion that matters- the paying public.

scott

Jeffrey Prest

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Castle Course...
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2008, 04:34:52 AM »
Alistair Tait has a far less glowing review now posted on Golfweek's website. 

Indeed he has and I'm amazed he seems to have got off so lightly on this forum with the following statement:


"Then there is what I can only describe as the 'Don King Features' that adorn the course. How these were dreamt up is beyond me. Picture the boxing promoter’s distinctive head, with his hair sticking up. Mounds in the middle of fairways with footlong grass surrounding them abound.

There’s a 'Don King' in the middle of the fifth fairway at about 265 yards. So you can hit a perfect tee shot up the middle and find your ball in knee-high grass.

Sorry, but if I split the fairway I want a clean lie, thank you."


Hazards in the middle of a fairway? Golfer in 'forced to think' scandal? My heart bleeds for him, as I'm sure yours will. If the hazard isn't visible from the tee, then I have sympathy for his argument but if it is, then my sympathy goes out to golf architects, who have a far tougher job than I thought if even senior golf journalists don't get it...

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Castle Course...
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2008, 05:20:05 AM »
So here's the question. 

I haven't played Kingsbarns and I haven't played the Castle.  I was talking to a couple of R&A members on Friday who suggested we have a game in August on one or the other.  They (heavily) favoured Kingsbarns.  My curiousity favours the Castle.  Which do I choose? (And no, TOC is not a third and preferable option).
« Last Edit: June 29, 2008, 06:55:01 AM by Mark Pearce »
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Scott Macpherson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Castle Course...
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2008, 05:48:01 AM »
Mark,

I (3 handicap) was interested in the same, so had the fortune of playing Kingsbarns and the Castle course with my wife ( an 'advanced beginner') back-to-back 3 weeks ago, and apart for the fact I do not like the 18th hole at Kinsbarns (no where for the average golfer to lay up to on the downslope before the burn), kingsbarns won the contest hands-down.

Some of the holes at The Castle course are superb, most notable the 7th, 13th, but others are almost unplayable e.g. 15th. I sympathise with your curiosity, and the CC is worth a visit, but with a serious number of blind carries off the tee (too many for me) and with much of the fairway and these 'hairy knolls' hidden, it may not give you the satisfaction you desire.

I am sure others will rank them differently however.

scott

Sean Walsh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Castle Course...
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2008, 08:16:24 AM »
As for the caddies the plan as it stood last year was to have a separate crew of caddies up at the castle to the other links.  The idea was that the fee would be £5 higher because it was likely to be a longer round and much harder walk. 

Much bitching amongst the caddies resulted as more caddies were taken on last year resulting in longer wainting times around the shack. 

Not sure how it actually panned out though..

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Castle Course...
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2008, 11:07:47 AM »
John Huggan reviews the Castle course in this morning's Scotsman, online:
http://sport.scotsman.com/golf/Castle-needs-to-earn-its.4233861.jp
jeffmingay.com

Melvyn Morrow

Re: The Castle Course...
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2008, 11:40:40 AM »
Jeff

Thanks for the report. Rather poor, expect the R&A will be unhappy but at £120 Green Fees it seems poor value for money.

I like the quote

"Our aim was to create this wild, tumbling landscape that could have been the result of nature," says Paul Kimber, Kidd's right-hand man, by way of explanation. "Then we found places to play golf amongst it.

I keep saying we have to stop this kind of installation – they are now talking of £12 million, just bloody stupid if that was the final cost. It’s not links nor is it heath, its plain farmland made into a lunar surface prior to mapping 18 holes.

If £12 million is right then I think it proves my point ‘Find a way back to Natural by utilising Nature may minimise Construction costs’ posted today. It is totally unnatural and the adjacent farmland land surrounding the course must play a factor re the weather & environment.


Donal Breasail

Re: The Castle Course...
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2008, 11:54:17 AM »
i played it about 5 weeks ago .having walked the site during constuction i was impressed with the overall result.The one thing that i would change would be the greens.They are two penal and the overall result will be very slow play but saying that i know the course will be a huge success.The shaping and bunkering are first class

« Last Edit: June 29, 2008, 11:56:13 AM by Don Breasail »

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Castle Course...
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2008, 12:50:43 PM »
Negative reviews by Tait and Huggan are unfortunate. Though, they actually make me want to see the course more than perhaps I had in the recent past.

Hearing about the blind tee shots actually makes me think of the Old Course, where there are also a plethora of blind tee shots -- particularly at the start of the round. I presume local knowledge will be "the key" to success at the Castle as time moves on, and that this was in the back of Kidd's and Kimber's minds while designing the course.

Playing the Devil's Advocate though, the necessity of local knowledge is more often better suited to a private club course than a 120-pound green fee course trying to lure traveling golfers from throughout the world, who'll likely play the course a single time and more often than not leave the Castle a bit perplexed... in the same way many golfers leave the Old Course, in fact.   
jeffmingay.com

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Castle Course...
« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2008, 11:18:09 PM »
John Huggan is just a bomb thrower when it comes to golf course reviews...

Can't wait to see this course, Kidd looks to have taken some risks and it's about time someone, in the UK, built some links style traps that aren't straight faced revetted.  The photos look fantastic.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2008, 11:20:22 PM by Paul_Turner »
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Castle Course...
« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2008, 01:18:44 AM »
Jeff

Thanks for the report. Rather poor, expect the R&A will be unhappy but at £120 Green Fees it seems poor value for money.



Melvyn,

I think you will find it is The Links Trust that have built the course and not the R&A. Don't know if the R&A have given money to the project though.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: The Castle Course...
« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2008, 04:48:20 AM »
Jon

You are right, my error. Should have said Links Trust and not the R&A

Thanks for pointing it out

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Castle Course...
« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2008, 05:22:15 AM »
This quote from Huggan makes me laugh:

"Whatever, these mysterious affectations – for they appear to have no immediately discernible architectural or strategic purpose – are intensely irritating. While golf, as someone once said, is a game never meant to be fair, searching for one's ball after striping one up the middle very quickly gets old."

Since when is "striping one up the middle..." the correct line.  I did not lose one ball apart from over the cliffs on hole 9 .

Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Castle Course...
« Reply #19 on: July 01, 2008, 05:23:09 AM »
Melvyn,

The cost to build the actual course was 4 million not including the grow in.  Not a bad investment if you ask me.
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Castle Course...
« Reply #20 on: July 01, 2008, 06:39:31 AM »
Jeff,

I can't tell if you've actually seen and walked the Castle Course. You're favorably comparing artifically installed mounds of heavy turf and rough with the gnarly dunes hollows and hummocks that evolved from hundreds/thousands of years of erosion found on the Old Course? Seems a bit of a stretch. The Castle Course sits on what was open flowing land, not defined by detailed mounding and smaller interior contours.

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Castle Course...
« Reply #21 on: July 01, 2008, 06:45:03 AM »
Jeff,

I can't tell if you've actually seen and walked the Castle Course. You're favorably comparing artifically installed mounds of heavy turf and rough with the gnarly dunes hollows and hummocks that evolved from hundreds/thousands of years of erosion found on the Old Course? Seems a bit of a stretch. The Castle Course sits on what was open flowing land, not defined by detailed mounding and smaller interior contours.
Brad,

Are there any dunes on TOC?  I also think it is a bit of a stretch to assume that the hollows and hummocks on TOC are ALL natural from hundreds of years of evolution....more like Greenkeepers tinkering with the course over hundreds of years....  ;)
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Castle Course...
« Reply #22 on: July 01, 2008, 07:31:31 AM »
Sorry, Brian, on that latter point there was no physical build up at the Old Course of those mounds, green sites and outlooks through labor - other than leveling areas for tees.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: The Castle Course...
« Reply #23 on: July 01, 2008, 07:43:34 AM »
Brian

£4million for a course that should never have been built
on that land is £4millon too much IMHO.

The Castle Course site had to be totally destroyed before the
course could be designed and constructed. Sorry have not been
able to download original photo of the farmland circa 1990’s

Again your comments re TOC is, well, lets just say that’s your
opinion.

Dunes are not far from the seaward side of TOC along most of
the length of the West Sands. When I was young I played in the
dunes, swam in the sea and searched for golf balls on the three
courses. Tinkering – I like that, perhaps that’s the answer, stop
theses complicated designs and seek good locations (worldwide)
then start tinkering. TOC is special to the Morris, Hunter, Rusack
and Morrow family, yet it suffered from incorrect and poor green
keeping between 1908 and the First World War – down to poor
tinkering perhaps?

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Castle Course...
« Reply #24 on: July 01, 2008, 07:46:34 AM »
Sorry, Brian, on that latter point there was no physical build up at the Old Course of those mounds, green sites and outlooks through labor - other than leveling areas for tees.
I don't agree and neither does Rich Goodale.... ;)
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

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