[Craig Van Egmond]

The gov't should target Microsoft and their 26% net profit margin next! Talk about obscene gouging!  Not to mention those predatory business practices!   

Does any company really need to have 40 to 50 Billion dollars on hand? 

[RJ_Daley]

Lou, the first time I heard anything crazier today than the Pine Valley rumor that started this thread, was when you popped up on the whacky PV and the raters discussion with the digression into the corpocracy talking points of the day for your lot!  But, since the daily spin was a bit more than I could handle, I thought I'd at least get the other side of the story into the mix.

Truthfully, I do think this whole defense of the greedy is getting pretty old with most folks these days, since more and more people have been sucked under by the big lobbiest paid for tax law favored enabled vacuum cleaner of wealth out of the middle class into the pharma-oil-banking-insurance corpocracy.  It is almost like the  masses are waking up.  Yes, I think the alarm clock is ringing in America and the rooster is saying crock-a-doodle-poo.

[Jim Franklin]

Does any company really need to have 40 to 50 Billion dollars on hand? 

Mine .

[Kalen Braley]

Lou and George,

I never suggested that they are all cheats, just that there are some bad apples out there and we haven't seen the end of it.

What I was trying to suggest that by keeping our eyes closed and saying Enron was just a once-in-lifetime type deal is not the way to approach this.  We have other companies like WorldCom and the techie IPO scams that also bilked people out of billions of dollars.  Best to take a cautious approach than have a blinding trust in captilistic forces at work.  I consider myself a capitalist as well, but with much needed oversight as these scumbags were, are, and will continue to be out there.

[RJ_Daley]

I know, I know, it was just an isolated co-incidence that "W" was flying around on Enron's plane back in the 90s...and then Ernron execs oddly enough had the gaul and belief that they could get away with their tactics on the cornering of the power grid in CA and other nefarious audacious fraud and robbery.... hardly an indictment of entire industries... or the ethics of government representatives of the people.  These things just happen... and it's nobody's fault.  How dare anyone propose a change in our national ethics and policies?

[George Pazin]

Lou, the first time I heard anything crazier today than the Pine Valley rumor that started this thread, was when you popped up on the whacky PV and the raters discussion with the digression into the corpocracy talking points of the day for your lot!  But, since the daily spin was a bit more than I could handle, I thought I'd at least get the other side of the story into the mix.

Truthfully, I do think this whole defense of the greedy is getting pretty old with most folks these days, since more and more people have been sucked under by the big lobbiest paid for tax law favored enabled vacuum cleaner of wealth out of the middle class into the pharma-oil-banking-insurance corpocracy.  It is almost like the  masses are waking up.  Yes, I think the alarm clock is ringing in America and the rooster is saying crock-a-doodle-poo.

Time for me to just shake my head and bow out.

I, for one, am thankful for what the evil pharmaceutical and oil companies provide for me and I do not begrudge them making money out of it, it is an exchange I enter into willingly.

-----

Kalen, who in the world suggested Enron was a once in a lifetime thing we should just ignore? You throw the crooks in jail, something the vast majority of businessmen I know have no problem with. From the very first time I read an article on Enron I suspected something was amiss - any business whose principal strategy is "We're smarter than you" is not one I would ever invest in. The additional oversight you proscribe does little to stop cheaters and much to harm honest folks.

If I were a censor, I would eliminate the phrase "There oughta be a law..."

[Kalen Braley]

Lou, the first time I heard anything crazier today than the Pine Valley rumor that started this thread, was when you popped up on the whacky PV and the raters discussion with the digression into the corpocracy talking points of the day for your lot!  But, since the daily spin was a bit more than I could handle, I thought I'd at least get the other side of the story into the mix.

Truthfully, I do think this whole defense of the greedy is getting pretty old with most folks these days, since more and more people have been sucked under by the big lobbiest paid for tax law favored enabled vacuum cleaner of wealth out of the middle class into the pharma-oil-banking-insurance corpocracy.  It is almost like the  masses are waking up.  Yes, I think the alarm clock is ringing in America and the rooster is saying crock-a-doodle-poo.

RJ,

I'm in agreeance that coporate lobbying needs to be stopped if the game is ever going to be fair.  And that's perhaps one of the most ironic things to our system is how we pride ourselves on competition, when half the time the competition is stiffled by a law somewhere.

The problem lies in how to change it?  The supreme court has ruled lobbying is free speech, but I don't see it anything short of bribery as congresspeople are the direct beneficiaries of alleged "no strings attached donations" made.  So why would Congress ever pass a law that would deprive them collectivly of billions of dollars in donations?  True "grass-roots" money would be far less from what they can get out business coffers.

In the end though, i'm not sure it matters who runs the show, because its a rigged game.  Democrat...Republican....doesn't matter, they are all taking massive amounts of money from corporate America.  Obama is the same and is why he has turned down public money because he can get more in donations from corporations.

[Kalen Braley]

George,

I understand all this stuff doesn't sit well with you, hell it doesn't sit well with me either.  By all means, go see that movie that I posted the link too.  It will sicken you to the core to see how bad that thing was, and how deep the deception and fraud ran.

As for other companies, it was your disbelief in a company like Shell doing what they did, that prompted me to make my statement about other companies like this existing out there.

Its a boogey man of sorts because no one wants to think about how deep this stuff potentially runs elsewhere.  I can understand the denial, because it easier to stick the head into the sand instead of looking with a critical eye.

If you want the names of other companies listed in wrong doings, look no further than Forbes list:  (coincedence that almost half the companies listed are energy companies??)

Adelphia Communications,
AOL Time-Warner
Arthur Anderson - NLE
Bristol-Myers
CMS Energy
Duke Energy
Dynegy
El Paso (energy)
Enron
Global Crossing
Halliburton
Merck
Qwest
Reliant energy
Tyco
WorldCom
Xerox


Its all right here, some big big names....and these are just the big fish!!!

http://www.forbes.com/2002/07/25/accountingtracker.html

[Lou_Duran]

Kalen,

It would make any of the Merion threads seem pithy in comparison if one was to list single space the many, many, many indiscretions, malfeasance, self-dealing instances of BIG GOVERNMENT.  And for my friend Dick Daley, perhaps we can start a separate thread for BIG LABOR.  For others it could be BIG ENVIRONMENT.  And let us not forget BIG LITIGATION.

Of course, the motives of these special interests groups- for the benefit of the "public good"- are pure, so they should have free access in the political system.  Funny, BIG BUSINESS, hardly the major player among these groups with a stake in legislation, can, for the most part, least compel me to act in the way it desires.

But you are right that it is a bi-partisan, equal opportunity issue- Dems and Republicans are largely indistinguishable.  BTW what do you think of Dem Senators Dodd and and Conrad as well as one of Obama's right hand men (J. Johnson) getting sweetheart mortgage deals from Countrywide at the same time that these fine gentlemen and Congress are putting together a bail-out bill that greatly benefits this "greedy" lender?  Why is the taxpayer's watchdog, the Honorable Rep. Henry Waxman, not holding hearings right now?

Come to think of it, in the bigger context of what people believe, the free Pine Valley membership thing is not that farfetched at all.  I am sorry I brought it up. 

[RJ_Daley]

But you are right that it is a bi-partisan, equal opportunity issue- Dems and Republicans are largely indistinguishable.  BTW what do you think of Dem Senators Dodd and and Conrad as well as one of Obama's right hand men (J. Johnson) getting sweetheart mortgage deals from Countrywide at the same time that these fine gentlemen and Congress are putting together a bail-out bill that greatly benefits this "greedy" lender?  Why is the taxpayer's watchdog, the Honorable Rep. Henry Waxman, not holding hearings right now?

For the record Lou, as far as I'm concerned, these guys that got the sweetheart mortgages can occupy the cell right next to Cunningham!  I'm not an apologist for greed and corruption by Dems or Reps or Commies or Labor or Corps, or Buddists.  It ALL STINKS! 

The word is change.  Will we get it?.. probably not too much.  But, it is better to at least hope for it and work for it, and maybe get a few upside surprises than keep going down this rat hole of ethical corrupt practices by all those that are elected and supposed to look out for the public, first!

George states:

I, for one, am thankful for what the evil pharmaceutical and oil companies provide for me and I do not begrudge them making money out of it, it is an exchange I enter into willingly.

Al Capone would love this statement.  Does anyone think that along with their research and advancements, that truly evil and unethical things are done by pharma or oil?  It is OK if they are sometimes unethical (leave out evil if you are uncomfortable with that) as long as I get something in exchange...? 

[Mike_Cirba]

Did you guys ever hear the one about Merion and CB Macdonald?!   

[Dan King]

RJ_Daley writes:
It is OK if they are sometimes unethical (leave out evil if you are uncomfortable with that) as long as I get something in exchange...? 

This may be a huge mistake getting into this discussion... but can a company really behave unethically? Who is to decide what is moral or not for a company?

In capitalism, the only goal for a company should be to be profitable and law-abiding ... as profitable as possible. As long as we as consumers understand that as their goal, then we can use that to force them to adhere to our morals. If you don't like how a company is making a profit, then do not buy their product.

The oil companies have the right to charge whatever the market will bare for oil. From what I have seen they have not yet found the ceiling. People are still driving as if gas was cheap. It will be interesting to see when the price of oil will start changing people's habits.

Cheers,
Dan King

Kilometers are shorter than miles.  Save gas, take your next trip in kilometers.
   --George Carlin

[John_Conley]

Dan, always quick with a quip!  That's awesome, and timely with him moving on to crack jokes in heaven.

[Kalen Braley]

Dan,

I think you are right on the money when it comes to us Americans making those oil fat cats even fatter. We have the control to give up our massive gasoline hogging cars and trade them in for more fuel efficient cars.

However I do disagree with your statements concerning morality in the work place.  How to know when a company is being immoral in the services they give you?  It can be all smiles and kissing babies in front of the camera like polticians and dubious back room deals on the flip side.

A perfect example is the IPO scheme for mostly tech companies back in the late 90s.  The companies all went thru the same small group of banks and finance houses.  It was all just a bunch of over-valued, overflated hoo ha when these companies had zero basis for any type of real revenue.  It was a wink and a nod and a completely artificial market. They pulled the wool over everyones eyes and made them beleive they were actually worth something.  Did they do anything illegal?  Likely not, but was it moral? 

Kaeln

[RJ_Daley]

In capitalism, the only goal for a company should be to be profitable and law-abiding ... as profitable as possible. As long as we as consumers understand that as their goal, then we can use that to force them to adhere to our morals. If you don't like how a company is making a profit, then do not buy their product.

com'mon Dan, that is naive at best...  Which oil are you going to use if you don't like one or the other's tactics?  What do you have, like three choices?  And, maybe you don't buy into the idea of monopolistic control of supply to effect price demand, but a good many do.  Do they really have a right to charge whatever the market is, if the supply is jiggled to fix prices?  And, they are global, so if we run them out of the country, there are plenty of other countries that will headquarter them.  How is it law abiding to subvert or skirt the lobby laws, or outright break the laws, while a case can be made that the justice dept., is politically motivated in prosecution decisions, and personnel questions?  It is alright (as Lou pointed out the case correctly) for our law makers to get such wonderful gifts as big money mortgage favorable considerations?  That is how a company and their coherts can be unethical!  

People aren't driving as if gas was cheap, they are driving to work to pay for the gas, and what ever they can buy after that. They have no choice.  We can't all trade our vehicles tomorrow for that new hybrid.  But, I do believe we will see a big change in purchasing decisions over the lifespans of the current cars.  LA is already setting public transportation usage records.  

[Lou_Duran]

Mr. Cirba,

You're incorrigible.  But if I can make a superior case why there's no CBMac in Merion, will you get me in the gate?  I'll play the middle tees with you, always stand to your left, and rake your bunkers.

RJ,

Certainly you've heard of the corollary to the optimistic Murphy, the laws of unintended consequences.  I read an interesting piece recently suggesting that what the American people really want is not change but a respite from all turmoil, uncertainty, and CHANGE that modern times, technology, and globalism brought about.  I suspect that the good folks in China and India have other preferences.

One of the problems that proponents of Big Government have is that the record of their alternative (to organizing the economy and society) cannot support the argument.  For example, Star Parker in the local paper today notes a study that shows the price of gasoline is currently some 16 times higher than it was in 1919.  We believe that this is outrageous and call for BIG GOVERNMENT to tax the hell out of greedy BIG OIL (didn't Carter do that, failed miserably, and only drove the price higher and supplies lower?).

Yet how about the 21-fold increase in the price of a U.S. Post Office first-class stamp during the same period of time?  Further, at least the price of gasoline has gone up and down during this time, while the price at the Post Office has gone only one way- up and up.  I wonder why there aren't any congressional investigations into that?

So rather than address the issue- markets ain't perfect, but they're a whole lot better than the alternative; let's see what is really driving the situation- Big Government interest groups prefer to discuss nebulous, largely undefinable terms such as "the public good" and attack their opponents' motives, values, ethics, intelligence, etc.  For Pete's sake, do we really want Pemex, Hugo Chavez, or Al Gore running energy?

I know, you'd prefer seeing a scene with Chavez clad in his fatigues and combat boots extricating himself out of the Devil's A--hole while Reid, Pelosi and Obama stand around observing in total admiration (I can imagine Che and Fidel- is that guy still alive?- giving their comrade a preferred lie by pushing the sand up from the depths of their resting place).  Me, I would rather take my chances with Enron or anybody else in Kalen's list of undesirables.          

[Kalen Braley]

There were viable electric cars back in the 90s and early this decade.  But GM inexplicably recalled them even though they were a hit.  They weren't long range cars but were perfect for getting around town and going to work....which represents the vast vast majority of how we use our cars.

Even made a movie about it to boot!!

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5524892

[RJ_Daley]

Lou, your analysis misses the mark, intentionally, I do think.  We don't need a stamp to go to work, grocery store, visit family, etc..  We need gasoline or a bus pass.  All these things cost way more than 42 cents.  We have to do this over and over each day to live.  You are using sophistry (what is new?)  Yes, stamps have only gone up...they are a license or permit to use a government service,  they are not a commodity that floats with supply and demand.  The price of BS seems rather constant in your market place, though...

You constantly ascribe those that don't agree with your Darwinian view of life, laisse faire, Libertairian, dog eat dog capitalism, with some sort of dirty word label of "big government" mongers.  You think nearly any government that oversees institutions and markets prone to greed and garnering power and unfair advantage as a dirty proposition and conspiracy to assert control and regulation over your 'so-called' life.  You think government meddles always, and any one that wants protection from this jungle you wish us all to live in, is just another big spender of your precious tax dollar, hooked on entitlements. 

Well, if that is what you think... now hear this.  I don't necessarily want just BIG Government.  I want ENOUGH honest government, enough regulation and enough protection from preditors in the market place and greedy corps that think there is no such thing as an unethical corporation or profit agenda, where favors can be bought, and power exerted to ward off all opposition.  And, I don't require any MORE government than that. 

For what it is worth, your tactics are becoming boring and predictable to tag on Al Gore in the same issue and philosophy with Hugo Chavez and place Obama, Reid and Pelosi in the same bunker as Hugo or Fidel, fluffing up his so called lie.  That is basically a version of "swiftboating".  Did you hear about it, the public is getting on to and tired of that crap. 

go ahead and take your chances with Enron and its ilk.  I guarantee that you cross them and they 'think' they can get away with it, those types will ruin or kill you.  That is and always has been the criminal mentality and way of doing things, you know?

the change many seek is a change of national ethical standards and fairness and justice for all; and most really don't care which party or entity brings it to them, but I really think their BS radar is getting keener...

[Dan King]

RJ_Daley writes:
com'mon Dan, that is naive at best.

Naive?

You want to know how to lower the price of oil? Conserve. The oil companies are looking for the highest price for gas that doesn't change the market. Who can blame them?

I drive a retro-hybrid and an almost antique Miata. I was filling them up about once a month. When gas went over $3.00 a gallon I changed my ways. I now fill them up about every other month. My hybrid used to get 50 miles to the gallon. Changing my habits it now gets 65. I drive as slow as I can without pissing people off behind me. If a light is red ahead of me I take my foot off the accelerator. Usually a bunch of cars will accelerate to get to the red light ahead of me.

I liked driving fast. But now I get my fix watching Top Gear on BBC.

My next car, if still internal combustion, will get at least 100 miles per gallon.

I am yet to turn on my air conditioner this year. I installed a whole home fan last year. When it cools down at night I turn that on for ten minutes and cool the entire house.

I'm not naive enough to think the oil companies  care less what I do. But I'm also not naive enough to think the price of gas has changed how most people use oil. When they hit a price that is a breaking point they will conserve, the oil companies will notice, and they will lower their prices so people will stop conserving. It isn't like this is the first time they have tried this.

I conserve because I don't want to give oil companies my hard earned money. I feel like I am in a minority.

Cheers,
Dan King

The first thing they teach kids is that there's a God -- an invisible man in the sky who is watching what they do and who is displeased with some of it. There's no mystery why they start that with kids, because if you can get someone to believe that, you can add on anything you want.
 --George Carlin

[RJ_Daley]

Dan, I'm afraid that I read your comments in a way you didn't intend.  I couldn't agree more with you on your last.  The naive part I thought was a resignation that they can do anything they want if they are 'law abiding', and cAN charge what the market bares.  I was saying they shouldn't just have to be given a pass if they are law abiding if they rigged the law to their favor, or fixed the market of supply and demand to their advantage, due to their huge financial leverage and political advantage, legally or in a fixed 'legal' system that they control more than the people. 

I even agree with your Carlin quote... and, I doubt he is in some celestial comedy club room being judged by an old grey bearded being who didn't like to hear him back when he was saying the 7 censored words.

[Dan King]

RJ_Daley writes:
The naive part I thought was a resignation that they can do anything they want if they are 'law abiding', and cAN charge what the market bares.

It's not resignation. It is the beauty of capitalism. What motivates companies is making money. We know their motivation, so as consumers we can use that knowledge to get them to do what we want. If you want companies to pay a fair wage, then only buy products from companies that pay a fair wage. If you want a company  to use U.S. labor than only buy from companies that use U.S. labor.

Ethics should never enter into a companies motivation -- however the appearance of some groups ideas of ethics can, but only as it pertains to profits.

If it is legal for companies to contribute to politicians campaigns and expect favors in return, then they would be foolish not to. Our problem shouldn't be with the company, which is behaving as it should, but with the politician who puts the companies needs ahead of the countries or the law that says it is acceptable.

If the NBA were to decide it is legal for a team to bribe the officials, then a team would be crazy to be the only one not to bribe the officials. Our complaint shouldn't be with the teams that bribe or the official who accepts the bribe, but with the NBA that allows it. Hopefully people would stop watching the NBA or another league would start up with rules against bribing officials.

Cheers,
Dan King

Honesty may be the best policy, but it's important to remember that apparently, by elimination, dishonesty is the second-best policy.
 --George Carlin

[Jim Franklin]

Wow, did my thread get high jacked to a strange place. Anyone want to get back to my original premise?

[PThomas]

Wow, did my thread get high jacked to a strange place. Anyone want to get back to my original premise?

sure Jim...
...now about you taking me out to PV as your guest...

[John Kavanaugh]

Wow, did my thread get high jacked to a strange place. Anyone want to get back to my original premise?

Are you still carrying that Pine Valley golf bag?  Assistant pros can be easily confused.  I was recently having a conversation with one and he explained to me the difficulty he was having folding shirts.  He had never heard of http://fold-your-shirt.com/ and was very happy for the tip.  Have you ever met an assistant that you didn't just want to hug?

[Jim Franklin]

No, I have a smaller walking bag. Much easier for me and much easier for caddies to carry when I travel. Actually my Sand Hills buddy sent me one, but it is worn out so I bought a new one from club over the weekend.

I have not met an assistant that I have not liked yet. We keep getting good ones.

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