Need info -- Cottonwoods & Sand Creek Station

[Matt_Ward]

I will be traveling through Kansas in a few short weeks from now and have been very much interested in the two courses mentioned in the title of this thread.

I have read the info previously posted and wanted to get the comments from those who may be able to assist.

How do the two courses stack up against the best of Kansas public golf. Are they both better than say Alvamar the public layout in Lawrence?

Are any of the qualities one associates with Prairie Dunes in common with either of the two layouts?

Any details that can be provided would be most helpful.

Since the two courses are less than 40 miles apart I can only imagine there's been plenty of discussion locally about the two courses.

Many thanks ...

[Jeff_Brauer]

Matt,

I think I could help a little, having played/designed one, and toured the other just prior to completion, without playing.  Of course, thats because I spoke with some gentleman who have played both in Kansas senior competitions.   You know where to find me......

Cottonwood has been discussed here.  My comments are that it is Nick Faldo hard - he has some double fw where I would only put one.  There are a few blind shots (watch the pond on 10) and some say the cousre is too formal looking for the sand hills (a cut stone wall, fake stream, etc.)  There are some really dramatic holes right now, but if the housing ever takes hold, it will diminish in visual quality.

SCS is a flat site, with many railroads nearby, and in housing.  To compensate, I used a lot of man made design features - there is a version of the Alps, Road Hole (as its original par 5 version), Redan, etc.  Only a few holes are treed - 1, 2, 9 and parts of 11.  The 9th has a postage stamp green inspired by Ross at Detroit, the 18th is an homage to RTJ fw LZ bunkering and the 4th is a sideways biaritz.  The 15th has a centerline fw bunker and a Mae West green, again, all manufactured.

The biggest negatives I have heard is the 10th - long par 5 into the wind.  It stems from my KN days, when they submitted an ideal hole concept to GW magazine.  That was a double DL par 5 with water left then water right.  I never had the op to build one, and needed two detention ponds there to accomodate housing so I figured what the heck.  The green is also very KNish, kind of like 18 at Kemper Lakes.  Its hard, and doesn't seem to fit the rest of the course.

As a result, and also because the houses aren't built everywhere, you might find it great fun to play.  In any case, for $40 or less its a great value course.

Of interest to both Cottonwood Hills and Sand Creek is that the water table is only a few feet below the surface, which affected the design of both.  SCS doesn't have sandy soils like Cottonwood does, as its 30 miles east, or so.

BTW, according to Golfweek, SCS is now second in KS public courses.  Colbert Hills is No.1.  If I recall, you have already seen that one.  I like Alvamar, but I think (bias may show) that Colbert has more challenge and scenery, and Sand Creek has more design variety.

[Ken Moum]

I work in Lawrence, so I have played Alvamar a number of times, and last fall I played Sand Creek, followed by two days at Cottonwood.

Of the three, I liked Cottonwood the best by a pretty wide margin. To be honest, I played very poorly at Sand Creek, so it's probably not fair to make too much of my opinion.

Jeff did manage to, as he said, beat some character into the site. There are a couple of holes that I just didn't get. The one that sticks out in my mind is #10. At 648, 612, 555 and 525, it plays almost straight into the prevailing SE wind, and is just too much hole for a public course, IMHO.

OTOH, a friend of mine from South Dakota who played with my wife and me scored very well and like the course a lot. (Of course)

The first day at Cottonwood, we also had the "normal" SE wind, and the course was a ton of fun. I have to admit that I was glad we had carts and the time to drive ahead for a peek at the fairways. without that we'd have been hard pressed to get the right line on several holes.

The next day, was cold, and the wind had switched to the NW. With that wind and the cold temp., it was a load.

May 12-13 the Kansas Senior Fourball was at Cottonwood and they got NW wind, and on the final day it was howling. Several guys from my club played it and none of them have a lot good to say about the place. Between high scores, blind shots and wildly undulating greens, there were a lot of guys who thought it was "goofy" golf.

FWIW, the winners shot one over par and won by five.

Compared to Alvamar, both courses are step up in terms of "design." Alvamar is always in immaculate condition, but I think it has too many holes are actually are goofy. (That's my opinion, of course, and it comes from a short, crooked driver with a better-than-average short game.)

Alvamar public is my favorite course in Lawrence, however.

Edit -- You love Black Mesa, IIRC. You will also probably think a lot of Cottonwood.

Ken

[CHrisB]

Matt,
I just played three rounds at Cottonwood Hills (I played in USAPL qualifying there) and came back to read some of the previous discussions on here about the course, and I must say that the discussions are a little reminiscent of the ones about Black Mesa. I think competitive players are more likely to love it, and higher handicaps are more likely to say it's too hard (although, like at Black Mesa, there's nothing to keep two high-handicappers from having a good match there--all's fair in match play).

Cottonwood Hills is a difficult course, and it takes a time or two around it to become comfortable with where some of the targets are off the tee (or into the green on holes like the fun-fun-fun par-5 15th, where in consecutive plays in the tournament I made a 3 and a 9 ). But there are some features out there that are unlike anything I've seen before (the 2nd fairway, the 18th green, the far-right pin on #2, the entire left side of the 11th green, the 14th fairway, etc.). The pin was on the upper left of the 11th green for the tournament (it's just a wedge in but you have to be so precise) and they actually moved it for round 2, although I didn't have a problem with where it was--it's an unbelievable pin position. The only hole I didn't like was the 16th, but it's mainly a maintenance issue for me--if the high stuff in the middle of the hole was cut down to high rough or sonething you could play out of, then the hole would be quite good.

It's definitely a good time to play out there, before any houses are built. It is a great piece of land. Word of warning, though--bring your bug spray. The water table is high on the property (though the turf still manages to play firm in most places), and there are bogs out there that allow mosquitoes to thrive. They look like little fighter jets, and can swarm all over you in an instant. Better hope the wind blows (it should).

[Matt_Ward]

Chris:

Thanks for your comments.

Interesting mix throwing Black Mesa into the equation. Are you saying Cottonwoods is of that quality given my love for BM?

Is the key to Cottonwoods really centered around demanding pin placements that you encountered ?

I wonder about the driving aspect -- is sufficient width a part of the process there in order to deal with the wind speeds that are quite common in Kansas?

Appreciate your take.

p.s. Can you compare Cottonwoods to PD and SCS ?

[Tony_Chapman]

Matt -- I've played SCS, Alvamar and Prairie Dunes and seen Cottonwood Hills from the road. My brother lives in Wichita and I get down there every once in awhile.

SCS is way above Alvamar in my opinion and I think you do it a disservice if you try to compare to Prairie Dunes or Cottonwood Hills because Jeff didn't have 1/8th of the site that Mr. Faldo or the Maxwell team had. So, I'll just give you my take on SCS.

I only thought two holes to be extremely difficult. The aforementioned 10th (a par-5 that's just too long) and the 2nd (again the same basic issues). That said, Jeff gives you two other par-5's that are loads of fun -- the sideways Biarritz at the 4th is a blast and the Road hole at 16 is awesome.

A wonderful set of par-3s, I think with decent variety. You'll get to use or pitching wedge and your long irons or hybrids. Also some wonderfully diverse par fours.

Lord knows my love affair with Mr. Brauer's course and his saving of Nebraska public golf, so take my words with a grain of salt because I have on rose colored glasses. I mostly play golf from about 6,500 to 6,700 yards when given the choice and this was a blast from the "one up" tees in front of the big boy boxes.

Really, the 10th and 2nd are quite manageable if I'd have just moved up one tee box for those holes only and played them at 530 and 555 instead of 579 and 612. Hope you have fun at SCS. My brother is there today for Kansas Amateur qualifying and I can report back if you like.

[Matt_Ward]

Tony:

Hold the phone amigo !

I never said anything about different courses being equals or the like. All I asked for was information and how people would differentiate them from the times they have played them.

I do appreciate your course details on SCS and it helps me understand things prior to my playing there.

I've played PD and have great respect for it -- no less than you and others. There was no attempt on my part to somehow link any of them together,

Many thanks for your detailed comments.

p.s. One final thing -- does the course (SCS) play easier / harded with certain wind directions ?

[Tony_Chapman]

Tony:

I never said anything about different courses being equals or the like. All I asked for was information and how people would differentiate them from the times they have played them.

p.s. One final thing -- does the course (SCS) play easier / harded with certain wind directions ?

Matt -- I know. I was just trying to point out that it would be fruitless to compare SCS with Prairie Dunes. They occupy different property and different soil make ups and play completely different.

To answer that question, though, I say the biggest difference is the property if you were to differentiate between PD and SCS. Jeff might pipe in here, but he built SCS on a cornfield with maybe 10 feet of elevation change. He had nothing natural there to work with (I don't think) except some cool railroad tracks that he could run some holes beside.

As for you final note, I've played SCS in just a SE wind and I can't imagine the course playing tougher in a different wind.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Matt,

SCS is designed with the south wind in mind, the long 10th notwithstanding.  The back tee was a last minute thing to artistically connect it to the putting green and artifically boost the course yardage for marketing.  I really had no idea that they would actually use the darn thing!

Tony,

Yeah, the second is the other one I hear about. Our original plans concieved of rerouting the stream, but later permitting requirements changed and we had to fit it around what was there.  The creek location makes is less than a great hole, and some complain about leaving that tree on the right of the green, but I alway said it could be cut down later, but not stood back up.

Thanks for the nice words, but I don't think I saved public golf in NB.....My two (three if you count the Pioneers remodel) public courses there just seem to fit in a pretty good tradition.  While they are good, you get to see some of my design evolution from 1989-90 to 2002-8 with CH and SCS.

[Tony_Chapman]

Tony,

Yeah, the second is the other one I hear about. Our original plans concieved of rerouting the stream, but later permitting requirements changed and we had to fit it around what was there.  The creek location makes is less than a great hole, and some complain about leaving that tree on the right of the green, but I alway said it could be cut down later, but not stood back up.

Thanks for the nice words, but I don't think I saved public golf in NB.....My two (three if you count the Pioneers remodel) public courses there just seem to fit in a pretty good tradition.  While they are good, you get to see some of my design evolution from 1989-90 to 2002-8 with CH and SCS.

Jeff -- That makes sense. Again, as I stated in my first reponse those two holes (I think) would play fine for me at the "middle" yardage. Me thinks the super should just know which way the wind is blowing when he puts the tees out for the day. I'm real interested to hear how they set it up (length-wise) today for the Kansas Am qualifier.

As for your Nebraska point, we've argued this waaaaaaaaaaaaay too much and I still challenge you to find me something that is 18 holes and public built before Highlands or Woodland Hills that I should seek out. The only one that I can think of is my little $12 muni in Grand Island.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tony,

Well, it may be true that the public courses in NB were probably historically "poor boy" efforts, as they were in most of the country, but perhaps moreso in the heartland.  Even WH and Highlands were not exactly over funded, with the City of Lincoln spending over $2.5 Mil but WH spending just  $1.2 to build their courses. But spending even that much might have stripped previous efforts.

Also, whether Dick Watson or Floyd Farley, I think perhaps the gca's in the midwest got the low budget, practical aspect beat into them very hard.  Maybe it took going to an out of town gca to break the mold a bit.

[CHrisB]

Chris:

Thanks for your comments.

Interesting mix throwing Black Mesa into the equation. Are you saying Cottonwoods is of that quality given my love for BM?

Is the key to Cottonwoods really centered around demanding pin placements that you encountered ?

I wonder about the driving aspect -- is sufficient width a part of the process there in order to deal with the wind speeds that are quite common in Kansas?

Appreciate your take.

p.s. Can you compare Cottonwoods to PD and SCS ?

Matt,
I brought in Black Mesa because the same kinds of arguments will be used by low- and high-handicappers to discuss the merits of each course. At Black Mesa, some higher handicappers will say that there isn't enough "width" on holes like #16 and #10, and at Cottonwood Hills they'll say the same for holes #3 and #15 and maybe a couple others. They'll say the blind/semi-blind shots at #1 and #10 at BM are a little awkward, and they'll say the same about #3, #8, #15 and #16 at CH. They'll say the pond on #15 at BM looks out of place in the desert, and they'll say the rock walls at #4 green and #15 tee look out of place at CH.

Black Mesa has such a great routing around all sorts of memorable natural landforms, with sweeping vistas everywhere, and Cottonwood Hills has none of that. But Cottonwood Hills has some features (mentioned in my previous post) that are so bold and unique, that even Black Mesa doesn't have anything like it.

If you hit it out of the maincured areas at Black Mesa, there is still a chance that you can find and play your ball from the desert, but at Cottonwood Hills there is very little chance of playing from the "gunch". So it's a little like Prairie Dunes in that regard.

With respect to PD, as much as we love fairway contours like the ones on #8 and #9, there are probably 3 or 4 holes at CH with that much fairway contour. And as much as we love the bold contours of the 17th green at PD, a few of the green contours at CH are as bold as I've seen anywhere. But PD sits on a better piece of land (though CH's is good) and PD's routing is superior. PD also has the sweeping vistas that CH lacks, and there is a consistency of style that CH doesn't have (for example, #9 at CH looks like it belongs on a different golf course, and holes like #5, #6 and #13 have a different look and feel with the bunkering everywhere than a lot of the other holes). PD is excellent everywhere, not too subtle and not too bold, whereas CH is quite bold (some might say over-the-top but I wouldn't). The one weakness I would attribute to CH is the lack of a truly great par 3--on that piece of property with all of the contours, the opportunity had to be there to build one.

Overall I prefer Black Mesa to Cottonwood Hills, but I really liked CH and look forward to playing it again. It even gives me hope that the USGA might take the U.S. Am or U.S. Mid-Am to Prairie Dunes, because CH would be a fine #2 course for either of those championships (assuming there is enough lodging in town for a field 300+ for the Am and 250+ for the Mid-Am).

It also means that the town of Hutchinson, KS, with just PD ad CH, has better golf than my entire hometown of Austin, TX!

[Tony_Chapman]

Tony,

Also, whether Dick Watson or Floyd Farley, I think perhaps the gca's in the midwest got the low budget, practical aspect beat into them very hard.  Maybe it took going to an out of town gca to break the mold a bit.

Jeff -- Benson Park in Omaha (Farley) is very good. I could maybe put that on my list.

Overall I prefer Black Mesa to Cottonwood Hills, but I really liked CH and look forward to playing it again. It even gives me hope that the USGA might take the U.S. Am or U.S. Mid-Am to Prairie Dunes, because CH would be a fine #2 course for either of those championships (assuming there is enough lodging in town for a field 300+ for the Am and 250+ for the Mid-Am).

It also means that the town of Hutchinson, KS, with just PD ad CH, has better golf than my entire hometown of Austin, TX!

Chris -- Have you played Sand Creek? If so, would you consider it worthy of a Publinks? I think from the tips in a Kansas summer wind it'd be a very, very good challenge for top amateurs. Does CH and it's fee structure (I don't know if they have memberships or not) qualify them for a Publinks? Having been to the Senior Open at PD in 2006, I think the cities of Hutch, Newton and Wichita would come out in full force of the Mid-Amateur event.

[CHrisB]

Tony,
The only courses I have played in the area are Prairie Dunes, Cottonwood Hills, and Flint Hills National. Don't know much about Sand Creek but it does sound interesting.

[Matt_Ward]

Gents:

Fair to say that either Cottonwoods or Sand Creek Station is the best public course in Jayhawk land?

Or would Jeff B's other creation in Manhattan, KS (Colbert Hills) grab the top spot?

[Tony_Chapman]

Gents:

Fair to say that either Cottonwoods or Sand Creek Station is the best public course in Jayhawk land?

Or would Jeff B's other creation in Manhattan, KS (Colbert Hills) grab the top spot?

Matt -- That's not out of line at all and I'd bet that most Kansas golfers would agree. They might disagree on the order, but they'd probably have those three courses at the top. I'm pretty sure my brother would, having played all three.

As an FYI, my brother (playing off a +1 index) shot a disappointing 79 today at SCS in the Kansas Am qualifier. He said they played it most all the way back except on #2 and #10 (not a surprise) and in consistent 20-25 mph winds. His 79 advanced him to the Amateur, however, at Wichita CC in July. I believe 84 golfers were playing for 31 spots. I noted the strong case made for the par-5s that Jeff built and, indeed, my brother played them in 7, 5, 6, 6. He felt the greens were the best he'd ever played them and running between 11 and 12.

[Matt_Ward]

Tony:

Congrats to your brother for qualifying.

Be interested to see the courses in person this summer.

Kansas public golf is quite surprising and it appears to be growing in stature.

[Tony_Chapman]

Tony:

Congrats to your brother for qualifying.

Be interested to see the courses in person this summer.

Kansas public golf is quite surprising and it appears to be growing in stature.

Matt -- Don't know how you'll be accessing SCS and Cottonwood Hills (I would assume a flight to Wichita), but if you fly to KC you should at least check out Chisholm Trail near Abilene if you haven't already.

[Matt_Ward]

Tony:

Any specifics worth noting on CT ?

I will be driving in from KC and can make the visit if you believe it's worth it.

Fair to say that CH, SCS, cottonwoods, Alavamar and CT make up the top five for ansas public golf ?

[Tony_Chapman]

Matt -- I think you are correct. I'd maybe throw Perry Dye's Auburn Hills in that mix as well as the wonderful city course in Wichita called MacDonald Park.

To me, Chisholm Trail is a GCA delight. It's simple, build your own course on the farm golf. I believe Ron Whitten now owns at least part of the golf course. I know there have been threads about the place on here, but I have no clue how to search. There are some very good golf holes out there. It's in rolling hills/dunes country and on a sandy base.

Also, just north of McPherson is Perry Maxwell's 9-hole McPherson Country Club that was built, I assume, while he was also building Prairie Dunes. It, also, is a blast.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tony,

I believe Ron has sold his interest in CT.  Interesting to hear your Kansas Am report. I am calling a few other participants I know for further details.  Do you know what low score was?

Matt,

Some have compared it to Wild Horse, but I never thought it was quite that good. I know Ron made some in house improvements.

GW has CH ranked 1 and SCS ranked as No. 2 in KS public courses.  Not sure why CH isn't in the rankings yet, but am of course proud of these rankings.  Just because of property, CH has to be among the tops.  Hard to beat those hills, unless you are a die hard walker, because they will wear you out.

[Tony_Chapman]

Tony,

I believe Ron has sold his interest in CT.  Interesting to hear your Kansas Am report. I am calling a few other participants I know for further details.  Do you know what low score was?

Jeff -- Low score was 70. I think a pair of 72s and the rest over par. I believe there were 86 golfers for 31 spots and exactly 31 made it. Since they don't do playoffs to get in the Amateur (all ties get the chance to play on), one missed putt by a 79 and 80 would have advanced.

[Ken Moum]

Any specifics worth noting on CT ?

Chisholm Trail was sold by Ron Whitten to a group that operates 5 other courses and charges $29a month for family memberships, which includes health club facilities. See http://greatlifegolf.com/


More from our hometown paper -- http://www.cjonline.com/stories/062407/gol_179701281.shtml

[Matt_Ward]

Gents:

For those who can comment -- what are the characteristics that make CT so special and worth a visit outside of 100 miles away ?

Is it really one of the 5-6 best public courses in the Jayhawk State ?

T h a n k s   . . .