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Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
I only know of two, Tehama (private) in Carmel has installed solar panels and Furnace Creek in Death Valley, CA has installed a very large solar panel system.

I'm surprised that courses like Bandon haven't installed wind energy systems considering the amount of wind and the huge energy costs that resort must have?   I'm not talking about some massive tower that is a blight on the landscape, but small power systems.


Peter Wagner

Re: What courses have gone green - installing solar/wind energy
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2008, 12:45:22 PM »
I was just about to write about this under the 'next step' thread on the board.  If clubs were built with wind mills, solar panels and water wells their operating budgets would be smaller which would allow for lower dues or fees.

- Peter


Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What courses have gone green - installing solar/wind energy
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2008, 12:53:32 PM »
If clubs were built with wind mills, solar panels and water wells their operating budgets would be smaller which would allow for lower dues or fees.

- Peter



The payback on wind and solar projects is many years, I'm guessing at least 8 - 10 years.  With the initial capital outlay and/or financing costs, lower dues and fees is many years away.

Going green is not synonymous with lower prices ...
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Ryan Farrow

Re: What courses have gone green - installing solar/wind energy
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2008, 01:07:13 PM »
If clubs were built with wind mills, solar panels and water wells their operating budgets would be smaller which would allow for lower dues or fees.

- Peter



The payback on wind and solar projects is many years, I'm guessing at least 8 - 10 years.  With the initial capital outlay and/or financing costs, lower dues and fees is many years away.

Going green is not synonymous with lower prices ...


Myth.

Read up.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: What courses have gone green - installing solar/wind energy
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2008, 02:17:19 PM »
Joel:

There should be more golf courses with wind turbines.  However, nobody building a high-end golf course wants their members to have to look at a wind turbine ... so it's the same problem with everywhere else in America ... NIMBY.

Matthew Hunt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What courses have gone green - installing solar/wind energy
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2008, 03:25:28 PM »
There’s a new course in France that has wide fairways and Solar Panels and Wind Turbines in between the holes. It a good Idea but the actual course look very forced. Every new building in Northern Ireland has to have wind turbines or solar panel so every new golf club has them. 

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What courses have gone green - installing solar/wind energy
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2008, 03:55:10 PM »
I was just about to write about this under the 'next step' thread on the board.  If clubs were built with wind mills, solar panels and water wells their operating budgets would be smaller which would allow for lower dues or fees.

- Peter

Not sure I agree with that especially on public courses where you see labor taking up almost all of the expenses, lower energy and water costs are going to go to paying labor.  Sadly deferred maintence will continue.

Tom:  I agree but there can be exceptions.  If Bandon Dunes placed them slighly above the maintence shed, nobody would see them.  Same at Olympic Club, Shinnecock and other courses where the maintence facility is out of sight.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: What courses have gone green - installing solar/wind energy
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2008, 04:00:33 PM »
Joel:

I can just see the Southampton zoning board taking up the issue of a wind turbine at the maintenance building at Shinnecock, on Route 27 coming into town ...

Incidnetally, the property that's now The Sheep Ranch was once a PP & L wind farm back in the 1970's.  It was too windy for the technology of the day, so they dismantled it.  (No joke.)

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What courses have gone green - installing solar/wind energy
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2008, 05:40:59 PM »
It doesn't surprise me, most of the old wind turbines couldn't work with wind speeds over 35mph.  Now days they are far more effective, you could place it out in Sand Hills and be succesful.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What courses have gone green - installing solar/wind energy
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2008, 08:02:58 PM »
Solar power golf carts are becoming more popular and as efficiencies of photovoltaic cells continue to increase and drop in price, costs will keep coming down and paybacks will be faster. 

Cliff Hamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What courses have gone green - installing solar/wind energy
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2008, 08:13:56 PM »
Portsmouth Abbey School in Rhode Island has a huge wind turbine on grounds.  Carnegie-Abbey is adjacent.  Not sure if they share the electricity.

Ryan Farrow

Re: What courses have gone green - installing solar/wind energy
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2008, 08:55:42 PM »
Solar power golf carts are becoming more popular and as efficiencies of photovoltaic cells continue to increase and drop in price, costs will keep coming down and paybacks will be faster. 

Is there much a difference between this and just using solar panels on the roof of the cart shed to charge the electric carts?

Kyle Harris

Re: What courses have gone green - installing solar/wind energy
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2008, 08:58:31 PM »
Ryan,

I would imagine it's more efficient to have the solar panel just run the cart instead of the charger.

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What courses have gone green - installing solar/wind energy
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2008, 11:04:22 PM »
A solar panel on the cart's roof wouldn't produce enough energy to drive it, and certainly wouldn't work very well on a course with a lot of trees!  Since you'll need a battery anyway its better to put the panels on the roof of the maintenance shed where they can be angled properly towards the sun and catch all the sun that's offered without any worries about trees or damage to them by careless golfers.

The best place for them would be states like California where the utility offers pricing plans based on time of usage.  Golf carts can be recharged at night with the cheapest possible electricity, and the solar panels will generate power to feed back into the grid that peaks during the day when the power is most expensive.  Even without incentives I think it would be a winner to do this there, but with the state's generous incentives its crazy they aren't all doing this.

Northern Ireland requiring "wind or solar" is kind of funny, is there anyone there taking the solar route instead of wind?  That's like vacationing in Hawaii and being given the choice of going to the beach or going to an indoor pool!
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What courses have gone green - installing solar/wind energy
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2008, 11:40:53 PM »
If you want to go green then have no golf carts rather than solar powered carts.  And reduce the water usage on the course - i.e. go green by going brown ( and walking).  That's likely to reduce energy consumption and GHG emmissions much more than solar or wind.

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What courses have gone green - installing solar/wind energy
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2008, 12:30:12 AM »
By that logic if you really wanted to go green you'd ban golf courses entirely as even walking only courses consume a lot of energy for mowing grass, etc.  Not to mention all the gas burned getting golfers to/from the course.  They could sitting inside their 500 sq ft house without air conditioning watching reruns of old golf tournaments on a tiny TV powered by an exercise bike!

What I'm trying to say is that there are a LOT of ways that we can reduce our energy usage without impacting our lifestyle.  Yes, there are many things we could do to change our lifestyle to save energy but I think we should make a dent in all that easy stuff before we try to make changes like banning carts and restricting water usage.  While as a walker and lover of F&F conditions I'm in favor of both, I don't want to enforce that on others under the 'green' banner.  If I was going to try to enforce it on others, I'd do it on under the 'golf is better this way' banner.  But I have no illusions I'd convince very many people of that, at least in the US.
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What courses have gone green - installing solar/wind energy
« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2008, 12:41:50 AM »
I tried to go solar once.
The payback is far more than 8-10 years in some circumstances.
More like 20 years.
And you still need to be on the grid.
I will try every project.
Cheers
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Ryan Farrow

Re: What courses have gone green - installing solar/wind energy
« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2008, 01:19:09 AM »
I tried to go solar once.
The payback is far more than 8-10 years in some circumstances.
More like 20 years.
And you still need to be on the grid.
I will try every project.
Cheers

Mike, haven't the times changed? If you know from experience that it takes plus 8-10 years for a return on your investment then that technology is old and inefficient. Since you are a rocket scientist you should know that photovoltaics have gone a long way since then and can be produced for dirt cheap and literally pasted on anything, anywhere. They just need mass produced.

And with an administration who doesn't care about energy independence and only cares about helping out his oil buddies and war profiteers we have really screwed ourselves over right about now.

astavrides

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What courses have gone green - installing solar/wind energy
« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2008, 02:33:48 AM »
Mauna Lani has solar powered carts according to their website (620kW of solar at the resort).  Not too many trees there.

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What courses have gone green - installing solar/wind energy
« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2008, 11:19:24 AM »

Myth.

Read up.


Educate me, find me something to read ...
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What courses have gone green - installing solar/wind energy
« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2008, 11:44:06 AM »
I'm sure that Ryan is talking about thin filmed PV solar, which if ever mass produced may produce a ROI of about 2 years or less, its estimated. Works great if you live in the Sunbelt, not so hot if you live in Seatle or London. Not so great at night either. 

Wind power is great if you live in Oklahoma or Texas. T Boone Pickens is investing 2 billion in wind power alone.

Here some interesting reading.. 

http://www.withouthotair.com/



« Last Edit: June 23, 2008, 11:50:48 AM by Craig Edgmand »

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What courses have gone green - installing solar/wind energy
« Reply #21 on: June 24, 2008, 01:16:27 AM »
Solar power golf carts are becoming more popular and as efficiencies of photovoltaic cells continue to increase and drop in price, costs will keep coming down and paybacks will be faster. 

The roofs for those carts run about $1800.   I haven't seen the payback time and expense.

Ryan Farrow

Re: What courses have gone green - installing solar/wind energy
« Reply #22 on: June 24, 2008, 01:48:12 AM »
I'm sure that Ryan is talking about thin filmed PV solar, which if ever mass produced may produce a ROI of about 2 years or less, its estimated. Works great if you live in the Sunbelt, not so hot if you live in Seatle or London. Not so great at night either. 

Wind power is great if you live in Oklahoma or Texas. T Boone Pickens is investing 2 billion in wind power alone.

Here some interesting reading.. 

http://www.withouthotair.com/



Sure is Craig, this is what I'm talking about (MIKE BENHAM), read up. This is not grade school, I am not giving you assigned readings, your a big boy, you can find out just like all the rest of those who are enlightened.

Anyhow Craig, I forgot what channel I was watching but the same scientist is also working on different color dyes and such that will provide as much power in overcast sky's as they do at full sun. Its kind of mind numbing to think of how much energy we receive from the sun but there is plenty out there in every part of the world, we just need to learn how to prioritize our resources, not only as a country but as a world. I still can't believe how some people turn this into a bipartisan political issue like there is something bad about sustainable, clean energy. 


And for those of you who miss our friend Tommy, he left me a nice e-mail on the subject that I will share with you all:






"I'm currently heading the PV business of the company I work for. It's such a competitive market now and I know a lot of people will say, "Well he's saying that because that is what he does!" The fact is that we are still working to do our first solar project because the competition is that brisk! The technology is astounding and changing as fast it comes out--similar to the computer business of some ten years ago.

Please explain to Benham that solar panels--as the business exists right now--are a commodity. The more you buy, the cheaper they are; but the need for complete panels is at an all-time high. Try going to buy a 180-210 watt panel. You may find one extra left over on some shelf or on eBay, but if you need 20-200 of them, you better plan on waiting 6-12 weeks if your lucky! If you do find them, then your going to pay a fortune for them--and there are people making money on doing just that! For larger orders of panels, the industry standard is right now, today, well you better have an order--a large order for panels by September 1st, other wise you won't have them for the first half of 2009.

Meanwhile, the inverters aren't as hard to come by, but still are somewhat expensive depending on the size of the system. These are required to change the power from DC to AC, as well as monitor and protect the system itself.

The savings for these systems are, or will be insurmountable, all depending on how fast and affordable you can ge the panels. If the engineering and installation is one of quality, this will allow the system to  exceed well past its prime, and power is only going to get more and more expensive. A normal installation, say one for a 1.5kW house (lets figure this as an average, but mid-sized house can range anywhere from 1 kw to 2kW, where the payoff can be usually complete between 5-7 years, however many are coming back and exclaiming the system has paid for itself in just over two!

Most systems aren't 100% capable and efficient because in most cases you don't need a system that is 100% efficient. the reason being is that most are not even at home during the day to validate the cost fo solar panels which range--right now--at about $650-$800 a piece. the amound needed all depends on each home and the average annual power use--that is if you want the syustem sized properly and efficiently without overbuilding it.

The newest thing, and it's a technology that will stand the world on it's head will be power storage. As most will know, current PV will not store power, only generate it and it's advisable to still be on the grid of the local power authority. (In SoCal's example, Southern California Edison) But if you have the ability to store--and soon, this will be even more common place--Lithium cells and capacitors will be the answer. Instead of using lead acid-filled batteries which require heavy maintenance, the Lithium cell will have an effective shelf life of over 25 years. This technology is called iCel. Please tell Mike Nuzzo that many are in fact building off-grid systems.

Our IBEW/NECA Electrical Training Institute here in Los Angeles installed a  457 kW  system on top of the roof, just over three years ago. It's capable of producing 900kWh of power (kilo watt hours) The former electric bill was $36,000 a month. Now, it averages about $3800 a month. The savings: well at the end of this year, they are figuring out the system will be paid for!

I could go on more and more, but its getting late. But you need to get this across to Benham--our world is changing and his children will know no other way part of their electrictiy is generated; not to mention that it can be readily available--IF YOU CAN FIND THE F'ing PANELS!!!!"


and last but not least from the man,

"Benham, your wrong!"



Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What courses have gone green - installing solar/wind energy
« Reply #23 on: June 24, 2008, 02:06:55 AM »
I tried to go solar once.
The payback is far more than 8-10 years in some circumstances.
More like 20 years.
And you still need to be on the grid.
I will try every project.
Cheers

Mike, haven't the times changed? If you know from experience that it takes plus 8-10 years for a return on your investment then that technology is old and inefficient. Since you are a rocket scientist you should know that photovoltaics have gone a long way since then and can be produced for dirt cheap and literally pasted on anything, anywhere. They just need mass produced.

And with an administration who doesn't care about energy independence and only cares about helping out his oil buddies and war profiteers we have really screwed ourselves over right about now.


Ryan,

I think you are being suckered by all the press releases companies are putting out trying to attract investors by touting their processes that will allow them to produce panels for $1/watt.  I eagerly await the day some of them succeed, but today prices are well over $4/watt, plus installation, plus grid-tie inverter, and payback periods of 8-10 years are not possible in most states that do not have the generous subsidies and wide competition amongst installers that states like California and New Jersey have.

See http://www.solarbuzz.com for current prices, and check out their information on payback.  Most states that have electric costs of less than 20 cents/kwh (it is 8-9 cents/kwh where I live) have an essentially infinite payback time at current PV system prices.  That will change as electric costs rise, of course, but it really only makes sense today in areas with high electric prices and/or generous government subsidies (which the state governments must provide because they lack sufficient electric generation capability as a result of their citizens not allowing the construction of any new power plants)
My hovercraft is full of eels.

W.H. Cosgrove

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What courses have gone green - installing solar/wind energy
« Reply #24 on: June 24, 2008, 09:41:57 AM »
Going green need not entail simply installing power generation equipment.  A couple of local courses have undertaken returning manicured areas to 'natural' areas.  While this is by no means as simple as letting the grass grow, the benefit is reduced water usage, reductions in fertilizer, herbicides and fuel costs.  It should also improve habitat for small animals. 

My suggestion would be that the installation of PV and wind generation equipment is sexier, the small things that can be done might provide greater short term local benefits. 
« Last Edit: June 24, 2008, 10:03:40 AM by W.H. Cosgrove »

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