Please provide world ranking

[kclarke]

I enjoy this site immensely and was wondering if you could provide a world ranking for your readers? There is a wealth of knowledge here that surpasses that of any publication and the ensuing discussion would make it relevant.

[guest]

can M Ward please be on the panel, we need plenty of 7500 yard gems, not the sissy courses the founder of this site continues to profile, three perfect examples of this sissy BS are Maidstone, Swinley Forest and Eastward Ho.

[Paul Richards]

I'll  start the list with my top 10:

1.  Cypress Point
2.  Royal County Down
3.  Shinnecock Hills
4.  Pine Valley
5.  Turnberry
6.  Pinehurst #2
7.  Royal Dornoch
8   Winged Foot - West
9.  St. Andrews - Old
10.  Ballybunion - Old

[Matt_Ward]

guest:

When you have the gumption to post your name I will dignify a more complete response. If you care to be a real man you can even send me a post offline at mattwardgolf@hotmail.com

I have mentioned numerous courses -- not 7,500 yard monsters during my time on GCA. If you take the time to read a few of my threads you will see that's the case. Among the more recent ones cited include Fenway, Prairie Dunes, Pacific Dunes, The Kingsley Club, to name just a few.

I also posted the qualities of such courses from a recent trek to New England -- Equinox and Ekwanok -- both under 6,600 yards.

What bores me is hearing from people who wax on lyrically about all these gems of courses that are short yardage wise because many times the reality is they don't want to play courses that will test other aspects of golf they don't have in their personal arsenal such as long iron play or even woods with their second shots on longish par-4's.

I take a much more pragmatic view on the range of courses that I prefer. Do you?

[ed_getka]

kclarke,
  If you are interested in architecture let us know what area of the country you play in and I'm sure guys from that region will give you plenty of courses to seek out. I did that not to long ago for the NoCal region and had a great response that will keep me busy for the rest of the year. You are right about this being the best resource for finding worthy courses to check out. I haven' t played a course I didn't like in the past year since finding GCA. Some courses I highly recommend are Stevinson Ranch (NoCal); Barona Creek (San Diego area); Rustic Canyon (No of LA); The Kingsley Club (Northern Michigan); Lost Dunes (SW coast of Michigan). The first three are public access. Welcome to the site!

[kclarke]

Paul Richards, What criteria did you use?

Ed Getka, I live in New York. My two favorite courses are Kingston Heath and Oakmont because they are a balanced test requiring accurate driving and good putting without favoring any aspect of the game over the other. You can not chip and putt your way around either course and the bunkers remain penal which is what it is supposed to be.

[Chris Kane]

Who said that bunkers had to be penal?

[Paul Daley]

Paul: Super list! Disagreeing about these things is ridiculous becuase it is all so personal and subjective. I won't be harpooning your list at all. Having said that, I can assume you haven't played Royal Melbourne, for is so, would no doubt see it among your top-half. Cheers.

[Michael_Burrows]

M Ward

Could you please list some of the "Short" courses that you do not like.

Cypress Point -6524 yds
Crystal Downs- 6518
Merion Golf Club- 6482
Chicago Golf Club 6574
Royal Dornoch - 6482


Do you not think that these courses test the player ability to hit good shots?

[ed_getka]

Add Pasatiempo to the list of "long" short courses by A.M.

[kclarke]

Chris Kane, I am not in support of how the bunker has evolved away from being a hazard. Much has been lost. I hate hearing pros yelling for their ball to get into a bunker.

[Chris Kane]

The reason they yell 'get in the bunker' is because the long rough beside that bunker is so difficult to play a shot from.  The problem is with the rough, not the bunkers.

Bunkering should be strategic, not penal, IMHO.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Chris Kane,

Don't you feel that penal bunkers emphasize and elevate strategy ??

[ed_getka]

Chris,
 If bunkering is not penal then how is it strategic? If I am not worried about extracting myself from the bunker it is not going to dictate strategy for me. Obviously being on the short grass is preferable to being in the sand, but how is a bunker that isn't penal dictating strategy?

[Matt_Ward]

Michael Burrows:

To answer your question would require a good bit of time since I believe there are a number of "short" courses that I like. Among the ones that come immediately to mind in no particular order include:

*Cypress Point
*Prairie Dunes
*SFGC
*Merion / East
*Crystal Downs
*Pacific Dunes
*Fisher's Island
*Camargo Club
*Wannamoisett (great short course that has plenty of bite for a par-69)
*Winged Foot / East

Those are on my first page of all courses. I have not played Chicago so I can't comment. A few I enjoy, but are a full notch below the above listing.

They include:

*The Kittanset Club
*Somerset Hills

Some that I believe are overrated include:

*Maidstone
*Shoreacreas

My position is that great courses under a certain yardage (let's just say 6,600 yards) become difficult to attain unless there is some compelling architectural quality included (lower par figure, interesting greens, great land, etc, etc.). In my mind, there has to be some long par-4's or long par-3's thrown into the equation to "spice" up the action. Clearly, others disagree and that's what makes such discussions interesting. Hope my answer helps ...