[Tom Huckaby]

David:

Tiger freakin' Woods is 30 yards short of Jon.    Jon just has a darn good attitude, for sure.

But you make a good point - even back in the days of persimmon and balata when I used to play it fairly frequently, the big hitters did complain about Wilshire being too short.  I shudder to think what those same guys would say about it today.  That being said, it's never been too short for me... not then, not now, not ever.

You ought to get out there again if you can.  I have no clue about changes... I played it a lot 20+ years ago, then I think once annually over the last 5 years, but man I just can't conceptualize it all.  I do know that #3 was still a damn good hole when I played it last year... great call there.

TH

ps - let me know if you want to play with my college bud just as a means of making it happen - he'd enjoy a round with you for sure.

[David Stamm]

Jon,

Thanks for posting the photographs.  I've played the course a few times and always found it to be great fun.

One of the reasons I don't think it gets more credit is it is not considered long enough or hard enough by those who judge courses this way.  But I am sure most the people who don't think it is long enough drive the ball about 50 yards short of where you do, and it seems you managed to have fun. Go figure.

One hole you did not mention that I thought was very good was the third, a short par 4 with something of an original cape concept, with the green jutting right and the creek guarding the back and sides.   I had heard that some of the changes might have messed it up a bit, but I hope it is still there.   

As for the recent work, Adam mentions it was Davis Love's people and I too think this was the case, probably around 8 or 9 years ago.  My understanding is that they did quite a bit of work on the bunkers.  Unfortunately I have not played the course since before this work was done.     

David, the 3rd hole is wonderful and we both thought it was one of the best on the course. The green cants from front to back and the fw from left to right towards the creek. It quite a tough little hole. One of the best short 4's I've played in So Cal.

[Joe Perches]

I simply pray before bedtime that a single municipality will get the cojones to restore one of their Bell Sr. courses...

You mean like Ventura did with Buenaventura via Forrest Richardson?
http://www.golfgroupltd.com/buenaventura.html

Back to Wilshire:

A fun and fine course for people like me that hit it 250 or so.

A long while ago, I thought the greens were the best in SoCal.

The greens then were hard, were very quick and the ball rolled very
smoothly.  The greens had plenty of undulation, interesting surrounds
and were great fun to hit into and to putt.  Anything was makable,
but you were still unlikely to make more than 10-12 footer.

If you're in Los Angeles and have an opportunity to play Wilshire,
you should.  I can't imagine you'd regret it.

[rjsimper]

1 - 390
2 - 530
3 - 345
4 - 193
5 - 379
6 - 436
7 - 142
8 - 383
9 - 426

Out - 3224

10 - 155
11 - 362
12 - 405
13 - 188
14 - 509
15 - 329
16 - 555
17 - 365
18 - 439

In - 3307

Total - 6531
Par 71

[David Stamm]

David:

   Jon just has a darn good attitude, for sure.

 

Jon is a rare breed who hits it a mile and plays a game with which I'm not familiar, but loves the the kind of courses that players of similiar ability do not. When Jon complains after the KP round at Pasa that he should not have a wedge into 10 becuase that was not the way it was designed to play instead of gloating "Man, I had wedge into that hole!", that tells you something.

[Tom Huckaby]

David:

   Jon just has a darn good attitude, for sure.

 

Jon is a rare breed who hits it a mile and plays a game with which I'm not familiar, but loves the the kind of courses that players of similiar ability do not. When Jon complains after the KP round at Pasa that he should not have a wedge into 10 becuase that was not the way it was designed to play instead of gloating "Man, I had wedge into that hole!", that tells you something.

Very, very true, well said.

Yesterday Mike Benham and I played Pasatiempo, with Rob Chestnut.  I hit the best drive I have ever hit on 10 - wrapping a slinging hook around the tree, great roll, all that I have.  I said to the others "I got that into Spauldingville..."  Of course Mike corrected me.  I had 150 in.  He does play a game with which I am unfamiliar.

 

In any case not to veer off from Wilshire... but I have thought a lot about Jon's statement re Pasa in this context.  Methinks it's worth a separate thread.  Stay tuned....

TH

[Lynn_Shackelford]

Jon, if you have pictures of the short 4th, please show them.  One of SoCal's best holes.
I hope you two took the time to look at the old pictures of the 16th and 18th greens in the locker room.  They are classic with the stream meandering around the greens.
Chick Hearn said he played there with Arnold Palmer and Palmer had to lay up on the 16th.  In his younger days Jerry West reached it with a 2 wood on the tee and 3 wood from the fairway.  Not bad with persimmon and steel shafted clubs.
So Jon what were you hitting into 16?
Every club in town has their Hogan story of where to aim.

[David Panzarasa]

I really dont think the pictures even do it enough justice. Its a very well thought out course, with every approach shot being so demanding (yet not long approach shots at 190-225yards).

 I wish I could find pictures for all the par 3's, as they really are great.

 I like to compare this course to Forsgate in NJ..as each hole is solid, all the par 3's are really good, approach shots are just awsome. Distance is not as important as being in the right position and making solid golf shots. 
 
Also, is it the 18th fairway that Howard Hughes flew his plane on to?

[David Stamm]

Jon, if you have pictures of the short 4th, please show them.  One of SoCal's best holes.
I hope you two took the time to look at the old pictures of the 16th and 18th greens in the locker room.  They are classic with the stream meandering around the greens.
 

Lynn, we did. They have some wonderful photos and those greens looked fantastic then. There was quite a bit more green surface on 18 then there is now. I think 18 is one of the best finishers I've seen in California.

[John Mayhugh]

David:

   Jon just has a darn good attitude, for sure.

 

Jon is a rare breed who hits it a mile and plays a game with which I'm not familiar, but loves the the kind of courses that players of similiar ability do not. When Jon complains after the KP round at Pasa that he should not have a wedge into 10 becuase that was not the way it was designed to play instead of gloating "Man, I had wedge into that hole!", that tells you something.

I haven't had the opportunity to play golf with Jon yet.  It would be worth a trip to SoCal just to trade obscure movie lines with him. 

[Jon Spaulding]

I simply pray before bedtime that a single municipality will get the cojones to restore one of their Bell Sr. courses...

You mean like Ventura did with Buenaventura via Forrest Richardson?
http://www.golfgroupltd.com/buenaventura.html

Back to Wilshire:

A fun and fine course for people like me that hit it 250 or so.

A long while ago, I thought the greens were the best in SoCal.

The greens then were hard, were very quick and the ball rolled very
smoothly.  The greens had plenty of undulation, interesting surrounds
and were great fun to hit into and to putt.  Anything was makable,
but you were still unlikely to make more than 10-12 footer.

If you're in Los Angeles and have an opportunity to play Wilshire,
you should.  I can't imagine you'd regret it.

I've not heard much of anything from the locals regarding Buenaventura (other than some old threads). Is it worth the trip, or should one spend the time at Olivas.

Should have prefaced the statement with "in my area"....namely San Clemente front 9, Camp Pendleton (well, still government owned). What's most disturbing is that SC did a fair bit of work on the course a few years ago and it was an absolute hatchet job.

[Jon Spaulding]

Jon,

Thanks for posting the photographs.  I've played the course a few times and always found it to be great fun.

One of the reasons I don't think it gets more credit is it is not considered long enough or hard enough by those who judge courses this way.  But I am sure most the people who don't think it is long enough drive the ball about 50 yards short of where you do, and it seems you managed to have fun. Go figure.

One hole you did not mention that I thought was very good was the third, a short par 4 with something of an original cape concept, with the green jutting right and the creek guarding the back and sides.   I had heard that some of the changes might have messed it up a bit, but I hope it is still there.   

As for the recent work, Adam mentions it was Davis Love's people and I too think this was the case, probably around 8 or 9 years ago.  My understanding is that they did quite a bit of work on the bunkers.  Unfortunately I have not played the course since before this work was done.     

I ran out of steam last night.....too excited to be playing another Jay Morrish masterpiece today. I guess without terrible there's no such thing as fantastic, but that's an entirely different topic.

The 3rd is a good hole, and I love the concept of the greensite, especially if it was larger in size as I presume it was years ago....but I find something to be lacking on the tee shot, both aesthetically and functionally. It was as if Francis came in for an evening and ovalized those bunkers. And good God, whoever put that cart path in should be forced to remove it with an ice pick, then drawn & quartered.  Also not big on the idea of the rough preventing a ball from rolling into the creek, and the overgrown trees blocking out the tee shot which takes an aggressive line toward said creek. Additionally, the creek is really not even in play with the size of today's green, and the short iron approach....which you can see in the last photo.

Tee shot:


2nd shot close to creek:


another view of the green:

[Jon Spaulding]

Jon, if you have pictures of the short 4th, please show them.  One of SoCal's best holes.
I hope you two took the time to look at the old pictures of the 16th and 18th greens in the locker room.  They are classic with the stream meandering around the greens.
Chick Hearn said he played there with Arnold Palmer and Palmer had to lay up on the 16th.  In his younger days Jerry West reached it with a 2 wood on the tee and 3 wood from the fairway.  Not bad with persimmon and steel shafted clubs.
So Jon what were you hitting into 16?
Every club in town has their Hogan story of where to aim.

As Dave mentioned we did get a look at some of the old photos in the clubhouse. The succession of the same view from 1919 thru today in 5 different points in time was interesting, and clearly shows the 18th green about 3x the size of today's version.

I double crossed a tee shot on 16 which nearly went in the range. The course was firm enough that I was able to punch a 4-iron down to about 70 yards from the green and wedge into a pin on the lower shelf and still make a 4. Go figure. With today's equipment and the prevailing wind (helping), I think it could be done with a good drive and a 2 hybrid on my end. Mr. NBA logo would be more like a 6 iron in, based on a height & talent algorithm.

Attached are some more pictures of the 4th; by short I presume that you mean the alternate green located well forward of the normal green. There was a photo from the side in the first post, which alludes to 2/3/4 having an Alps/Cape/Biarritz inspriation in succession.....and we cross over Ardmore Avenue on the way down Melrose to the club......

#4 tee shot


#4 from side


#4 from rear

[Jon Spaulding]

David:

   Jon just has a darn good attitude, for sure.

 

Jon is a rare breed who hits it a mile and plays a game with which I'm not familiar, but loves the the kind of courses that players of similiar ability do not. When Jon complains after the KP round at Pasa that he should not have a wedge into 10 becuase that was not the way it was designed to play instead of gloating "Man, I had wedge into that hole!", that tells you something.

I haven't had the opportunity to play golf with Jon yet.  It would be worth a trip to SoCal just to trade obscure movie lines with him. 

You make it out here, and I'll buy dinner. I have a place that serves an excellent Soylent Green dish

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

This was my high school team's home course and quite a few teamates were members.  Back in the late 70's, the 3rd green was outrageously severe from golfer's left to right.  I hadn't played there for over 20 years when I played in March with David Menke, Rick Reilly's son (who attends Loyola), a buddy, and Nick Jones (former Ca. Am champ).  They know of two complete green rebuilds.  Evidently, the green was lost to a fungas in the 80's and was rebuilt along with the 7th( which was two greens like the 4th in the late 70's).  Unfortunately, it did not come out well, and the rebuild further softened the slopes.
The original green had a couple of chanels running down to the right similar to the 2nd at Agawam Hunt, but not as severe.   Also, the fairway used to be cut right up to the barranca and the trees guarding the green were easily carried--no way today.

[Tom Huckaby]

This was my high school team's home course and quite a few teamates were members.  Back in the late 70's, the 3rd green was outrageously severe from golfer's left to right.  I hadn't played there for over 20 years when I played in March with David Menke, Rick Reilly's son (who attends Loyola), a buddy, and Nick Jones (former Ca. Am champ).  They know of two complete green rebuilds.  Evidently, the green was lost to a fungas in the 80's and was rebuilt along with the 7th( which was two greens like the 4th in the late 70's).  Unfortunately, it did not come out well, and the rebuild further softened the slopes.
The original green had a couple of chanels running down to the right similar to the 2nd at Agawam Hunt, but not as severe.   Also, the fairway used to be cut right up to the barranca and the trees guarding the green were easily carried--no way today.

Robert - did you attend Loyola?

I played on the golf team at Crespi... and Wilshire was Loyola's home course way back when.  We never did beat them there... dammit!

I was at Crespi HS 1977-81.  Possible we played against each other?  The great Loyola players I remember back then were Pat McCroskey and Charlie Macphee (who later went to Santa Clara and became a good friend)....

Small world for sure.  I'm just wondering how small...

TH

[Jon Spaulding]

RMD, thank you for the insight regarding the 3rd. Something just seems way off on that hole and this explains most of it. It could be good again as the infrastructure is certainly there.

TH.....5 years of high school??  Loyola guys @ SCU were generally the Blutowskis, to put it mildly.....with Crespi guys always coming off more along the lines of Daniel Simpson Day.....who has no grade point average. Didn't I see you driving your bike up the stairs @ Lake Merced? Most of the Bellarmine guys were more like Flounder (except for MB and SP of course).

[Tom Huckaby]

RMD, thank you for the insight regarding the 3rd. Something just seems way off on that hole and this explains most of it. It could be good again as the infrastructure is certainly there.

TH.....5 years of high school??  Loyola guys @ SCU were generally the Blutowskis, to put it mildly.....with Crespi guys always coming off more along the lines of Daniel Simpson Day.....who has no grade point average. Didn't I see you driving your bike up the stairs @ Lake Merced? Most of the Bellarmine guys were more like Flounder (except for MB and SP of course).

LOL!
September 1977 to June 1981, smart guy.   

Funny how even the SoCal Catholic schoolers found their way to SCU... we had several from all of the SoCal greats... Crespi, ND, Loyola, St. Francis, etc.

But it was even more comical how many Bay Area Catholic schools were represented... good lord I must have had 12 Serra grads on my Swig dorm floor.  And they were most definitely the Blutarskis.

Now back to Wilshire....

[BCrosby]

This is great stuff. I've wanted to know more about Wilshire for a long time.

Any chance you LA-based cowboys might do a similar photo tour of Riverside?

Bob

[Jon Spaulding]

This is great stuff. I've wanted to know more about Wilshire for a long time.

Any chance you LA-based cowboys might do a similar photo tour of Riverside?

Bob

Riverside, meaning Victoria Club? If yes, I put up a thread last year.

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,31039.msg603539.html#msg603539

[Mike Benham]

SP is Bluto Blutarsky and if you check the annals of The Santa Clara, circa 1979, you will see the headlines.

The movie did have a couple of facts wrong, although Bluto did drive off in a convertible, it was  with a brunette under his arm and headed for stardom as a Rocket Scientist ...

[Jon Spaulding]

I always thought SP had starred in "Samurai Night Fever".......didn't you tell me that he directs his team at work with a sword?

[DMoriarty]

I simply pray before bedtime that a single municipality will get the cojones to restore one of their Bell Sr. courses...

You mean like Ventura did with Buenaventura via Forrest Richardson?
http://www.golfgroupltd.com/buenaventura.html

. . .

I've not heard much of anything from the locals regarding Buenaventura (other than some old threads). Is it worth the trip, or should one spend the time at Olivas.

Should have prefaced the statement with "in my area"....namely San Clemente front 9, Camp Pendleton (well, still government owned). What's most disturbing is that SC did a fair bit of work on the course a few years ago and it was an absolute hatchet job.

Jon,   

I assumed Joe's comments about Buenaventura were sarcastic, but if not I hope he sets me straight.    To me Buenaventura is the poster child for unscrupulous architects trying to pass off their work as restoration work when it is nothing of the sort.

[Joe Perches]

I simply pray before bedtime that a single municipality will get the cojones to restore one of their Bell Sr. courses...

You mean like Ventura did with Buenaventura via Forrest Richardson?
http://www.golfgroupltd.com/buenaventura.html

Is it worth the trip, or should one spend the time at Olivas.

I assumed Joe's comments about Buenaventura were sarcastic, but if not I hope he sets me straight.

I sent this privately, then thought I might as well post it:

Sarcastic is an unfortunately strong word when I was trying to be gently tongue in cheek...

I don't much enjoy what changed at BV, I thought it was better with the earlier layout, (reversed 9's, not as many lakes), in the late 60's when I first played it as a 10 year old, but it was never much of a course.  More like a field bulldozed around a bit, add some simple greens, Presto! Golf Course!

I played BV maybe 15 times in the early to mid 70's then not at all until saw the changes with Tommy N when Forrest remodeled.  I thought that FR improved a few greens but didn't do enough fairway features work and the bunkering was not to my taste.  I think it kept the men's and women's club reasonably happy though.  Soule Park turned out to be a more interesting to me/better remodel, but look at what happened to the interesting holes there.  Too much complaining led to more softening of the newest and best features.

Would I play there at BV again?  Not intentionally, but it could happen.

[DMoriarty]

Joe,

Thanks for clarifying.   What unnerved me about this project was that it was presented as a restoration and sympathetic to the style of Billy Bell Sr.  when it most obviously is not.   

Back to Wilshire.

The photo of the third is a bit different than I remember it.  I don't think there used to be a culvert across in front of the green, and I think either the green bigger or closer to the bank, or something.   I agree with the other comments.  Potentially a good hole, though.

One thing positive, I think there used to be a very annoying palm tree front and right of the green on 13 and at least that seems to be gone.   Or maybe I am crazy.  Or maybe both.

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